One thing that is well known is how bad the Kuju models are. However, I was looking through archives of railsimulator.com and I found dozens of renders of these models... And they look good... The HST model in particular is known to be bad, but look at those headlights. These are definitely the models used in the game but in-game they're much worse quality. The ironic thing is that HST is better than the remastered LNER HST assuming the reports of the incorrect sizing are accurate. That begs the question - if DTG has these high-quality models, would they ever release them?
Perhaps those models weren't fully completed models, just ones designed to look good in publicity. but actually not fully acurate models. perhaps one side only completed, or made by a third party for ads only. who knows
Renders will always look better than in-game images, it doesn't matter what the game is or who the Developer is, some renders can take hours and hours to render literally one row of pixels at a time, if you ever see images like these know that they will never look like that in-game.
Those are renders done in a proper rendering program. They will never look like that in game I'm afraid, and there's no way those are the same textures as used in game, even if it's the same model. As an example, this is the same Class 87 cab model that you can buy from AP right now, but rendered in Unreal Engine 4. The rendering engine used can change a model's appearance dramatically, as antialiasing, bump mapping and lighting can be greatly improved and textures can be used at a much higher resolution. One of the reasons AP stuff looks so much better than the old Kuju stuff is higher resolution textures. The one thing TS can't do though is the same lighting and surface effects that a proper rendering program can. You have to remember that even on a very powerful PC, renders like this can take minutes (sometimes many minutes) to complete, so you will never get this in game.
I don't agree the Kuju models are bad visually. I think they still look good, better than a lot of DLC that came afterwards. What is it you don't like about them?
The lack of polygons. The point I was making in the OP is that the polygon count on these renders is far higher than in game (look at the headlights on the HST for instance).
There is of course to note that the 166, 47 and a couple of other things were rebuilt in 2011 (I think by Alan Thomson - not the grumpy streamer :P *, the scottish one ) (* = in jest )
One of the reasons a lot of the older models look kind of dumpy is they were done back in the day of 1024x1024 templates. Increasing the textures to 2048x2048 or even 4096x4096 templates does wonders for them in game.
Thank you for being patronising. I am fully aware of this. My point is that DTG may have access to these high quality models and may be able to use them. Christ, I didn't expect finding renders on the web archive would cause all of this.
Oh man, this brings back memories from the Rail Simulator days. But why are the Kuju models said to be bad? For their time, they were quite good, weren't they? But as others have said, they look better in these images because they're the "showcase" models. They were probably used on the box cover arts as well.
I checked some of my screenies just to verify. Sure, there is a difference, but it doesn't seem as big as it may feel. Based on my screenshots thread experience, shaders and AA are a lower hanging fruit - the pictures shown in the opening post. I'm also a bit worried about the side effects of increasing texture fidelity. It could slow down things, but would have to see. But the other thing is, updating Kuju models is one, but there are so many reskins.
Yes, I'm with you on this one IB. The Kuju models have been surpassed with features and sounds, but they still look better than much newer DLC. I think the smoke particles for Kuju steam locos are more convincing than the steam caterpillars than a lot of new ones have. Weathering is good and they are they only set of models that consistently gets the static unbody shadow working in all weather types and lighting.
This is the second post to suggest this, and I'm just not seeing it personally. What newer DLC looks worse than the old Kuju stuff?
In my opinion the 2 Kuju models that I still like today is probably the DB Class 101 and DB Class 294. They still look pretty good in my opinion, with the DB Class 294 being the best out of the two. In regards to the other Kuju models, I reckon the British Rail Class 43 (HST) is the worst. It just does not look good to say the least. The British Rail Class 47 and LMS Stanier Class 5 are somewhere inbetween the 294 / 101 and the 43.
Yeah, some look OK, but you were saying that some modern DLC looks worse than the Kuju stuff. Can you give an example?
Sorry but you may be confused. I never said that new DLC looks worse than Kuju stuff. It was Cuddy_Man who mentioned this. I also asked him to give an example on what new DLC looks worse than the Kuju models.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/222623/Train_Simulator_First_Capital_Connect_Class_321_EMU_AddOn/ I very much disagree that the HST is the worst Kuju model too. Just looking at the modern image British stock, it's the 47 by a country mile, then probably the 55, then the 166 and then the HST is one of the best. Compare the 47 and HST cab for example, the HST is far better. The proportions of the model are much better too. I think it says a lot that AP have managed to make some half respectable EPs out of the HST but there's nothing to be seen for the others. The 47's external was improved substantially a few years later but the cab still remained poor.
Yes the Class 321 on Steam is bad but that came out 9 years ago now in 2013 so I wouldn't consider it new. I was talking about DLC that was released 2020-2023. But you raise a fair point about the Class 43 having good AP packs made for them, so looks like I was too harsh on the Class 43. I should probably give it another go sometime because I haven't driven it in a while.
There are also two versions of the (FGW) Class 43, I didn't notice before but there is the one with two lights like in the OP and then there is the one behind a glass like I attached. The latter feels worse, not to mention the artifact on my screenshot with the far side headlights shining through.
I didn't say new, I said newer releases; however, I can still take on your version of the challenge. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I'm talking about external visuals only, as that's what this thread opened with, but here are some examples of more recent releases that look worse than the original Kuju models to me: The entire Caledonia Works catalogue - horrible steam caterpillars from the chimney with the regulator open. Kuju's smoke might not be ultra realistic, but at least it looks more believable and doesn't have weird visual effects from certain angles. Some of the current AP catalogue when viewed in snow or fog - no underbody ground darkening. DTG DB BR 361, horrible matt surface and no weathering. TI Glasgow Subway, as above. All rolling stock by Rivet, no underbody ground darkening. VW LNER Raven Q6, motion and valve gear that look like they're made from aluminium. Kuju get the look of oily steel spot on. I could go on further, but you get the idea. Sure the Kuju cabs, sounds and features have long since been surpassed, but the external visuals? No, not for what I want in the sim, which is the overall look of real life. They remain good and many developers could still learn from them.
Oh well. You spend most of the time in the cab, and I'm sorry, I can't even use the old Kuju stuff any more. It's just awful. The only exception is the HST with the AP pack and Dunk's revised cab textures. With a very few exceptions such as ATS's 185 and some newer DTG stuff, I only ever use AP stuff to drive. The old Kuju stuff is relegated to AI for me. I don't think you can judge DLC based solely upon external looks. This is a train simulator... you're supposed to drive them.
You might, but I don't. I've spent more of my life as a railway modeller than a train sim user, so driving from outside the cab is the obvious way to do it! Exterior visuals matter more then. Different users, different needs. I've resurrected one of my old AP sound packs and am having a blast driving the Kuju 37/9 from an outside view with HUD. It rocks.
Me too. I use the external views be it helicopter or "front" coupler views. I like to see the trains and countryside not just the trackbed and signals. I moved to Sims when I no longer had the space for an HO layout.
I'll stick with the AP 37.. for both in and outside views The Kuju 37 is terrible. It's not even a fair contest. The Kuju model isn't even particularly accurate.
I think there is room for both, Hobby-Expert in Piko terms, both from a money perspective as well as game performance-wise. I consider this a game, if I want perfect details, I'll just browse actual photographs. Sure, create perfect models that people can see in 50 years once the very last 37 is eaten by rust and cut up. If people will care anyway. I'm also driving from the cab but I use and prefer default zoom, to look out and ahead. Of course I see everyone is different. That said, Skyrim introduced a hi-fi asset pack, so why not. It might get annoying to flip-flop those based on how busy your scenario happens to be, but it would allow people with serious rigs to use them. As for me, I didn't love that Köln-Koblenz workshop run with a steady 15fps and 2 second stutters every 30 seconds all the way.
I don't think there are any higher quality models (well the 47 was replaced in 2011) but I think it's just a case of "lighting" (i remember the difference between Railworks 2 and 3 - the lighting difference was almost really drastic in comparison. I'm glad i'm not the only one - I also think the DB101 still is good enough (not the best - but still useful for AI ) The again ithought the original 166 was terrible, but the replacement in 2011 was so much better (I mean dated now but good for it's time).
Not that im arguing, i just can't see much difference between them apart from the Kuju one being lower poly.
In terms of texturing and consistent colour tones, lighting and shading, they were pretty good - of course resources were limited in polygon count and texture size for performance reasons. (Kuju did not make such mistakes like DTG did when releasing CSX Heavy Haul without LODs at first - looked good but had terrible framerates). Put some clunky overbright sharp-edged DTM models next to them and you'll see what I mean. And remember where they came from - MSTS with 2D bitmapped cabs and very bad models. Having "studied" TS for a long time now, I'm still amazed with how much foresight and creativity Kuju laid the base. And for me there's no rating of the models - it's preserved legacy and I'm glad most of the original stuff is still working and available.
Interestingly there were quite a few features in Kuju stock that were rarely seen again. The (still rather good) HST passenger view had subtle ambient sounds like the clattering of plates. The Class 166 had very basic announcements when the doors closed.
Take a closer look. Kuju AP There's just no need for such low poly count and low resolution textures any more. Things have moved on. The cab is even worse, and the sound's pretty rough as well... as is the way it drives. I know it was all good back in the day, and there are one or two that are still worth using, but the majority of the Kuju stuff is pants. Good as a low resource static AI seen from a distance, but little else these days. All this reminiscing is all very well, but it's like when you find an old video game you loved as a kid on an emulator, and you load it up all excited... only to find that you think it's a bit rubbish now you've seen bigger and better things. Fond memories... but that's all they are.
I think the Kuju 37 (37218) is better than the AP one. It has a more natural sheen, better weathering and in my view a more correct shade of blue. The AP one has more detail if you get close, but from a normal distance the Kuju one looks better to me. The low poly count is great for me, as I have an old potato spec PC. I think we're never going to agree on this, but as I said earlier, different users have different needs and values.
I think no one is contesting that the AP stock is of higher fidelity. Also, I would love-love-love to convince DTG to take ownership of packs and re-release them at higher fidelity. I know some games did that, and it's lovely - apart from changing the look & feel. However, is it a realistic expectation? Or do we just devolve into a typical "DTG sucks, hail AP" thread? Sure my remark comes off negative, and it took over five years of fighting to get BNSF back (and maybe it was merely because of TSW). Just have to make sure we all use the correct wording. The Kuju pack would be relatively easy to upgrade as it's a common one, so it would upgrade pretty much every route. That said it would look really funny to look at the Class 33-37 double header or a Portsmouth meet. But it's how WoW has been for years - new stuff mixed with old.
It's the totally wrong colour. I'm not sure how you think it's not. It's an aqua colour, with loads of green in it. It's a million miles away from Rail Blue. It looks like it's been drawn using an Etch-a-Sketch when you get close... but fair enough, if you like it (shrug). BTW, the AP version has three weathering versions. This is W2, medium weathering, so yes, it looks a bit worn, but still quite clean. W1 is squeaky clean, and W3 looks like it's due to be scrapped. You don't need a high end PC to run AP stuff. I'm using a 12 year old PC with a 9 year old graphics card. No, I don't think we'll ever agree here
Call me a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist if you want, but.... there seems to be a correlation between defending the Kuju/DTG stuff and taking part in the official weekly screenshots threads that don't allow any 3rd party enhancements. I'm just putting that out there. Make of that what you will
Let's just relax, this is just an open discussion. There's no goal here Bashing the roots of TSC is silly. And colours may look very different depending on the TimeOfDay - remember the season files also give everything a different tint at different daytimes. Best to judge using 3D Clear + DynClouds @ 15pm
Wise words - the kuju stuff gave us all a start and inspired today's creators to produce the brilliant rolling stock that we can now enjoy driving/watching. Anybody can choose to use whatever they like, there is no right and wrong here, it all boils down to personal choice and preference. Andy
Everyone’s eyes, and ears, are different and each eye and brain has a different perception of shade and sheen. My wife and I constantly disagree on dark shades of green versus black and some shades of yellow versus light green. Then there’s the light angles.... The same with sound. I had a colleague 40years ago who spent £1000+ on an audio system but my ears weren’t able to justify the difference between his and my £250ish system.
I don't care about that so much because it creates weathering variety. Driving UP trains would be really boring if all of them had the shiny looks of the DD35-GP35 pack (which is beautiful). This is considered a relatively good condition blue for us. Some are darker, but anyway. But then it tends to fade... (involving a bit of time travel here ) The one in the middle really stands out: Is the left or the right end prototypical? Our Flirts like the fade as well. Some of them are barely pink I like to do this kind of poking, just the other way around, hehe trying to sell AP stuff! Joke aside, coping might be involved. Many of us just don't care as much. Kuju stuff is a hobby model that you get as part of the ECML, 4.5€ on discount, so it's like 2€ for how many trains now. Plus, it enables filling yards with trains, something I can't do with higher fidelity models. And modeling the BR Green-Blue era you would fill yards I guess, unlike today's precision scheduled railroading, where you only really stop for inspection or the odd mixed train humping.
It seems to me that the colour variation shown above is exactly why AP supply different levels of weathering per livery, rather than it being something not featured in their packs.
Most Kuju trains have luckily been rebuilt in good quality by third parties (Class 37, BR 101, BR 143...). two trains have been revamped version for years: DB Class 294 and the Class 166. I think a lot of people would love to see these two trains in good quality with proper sounds, safety systems, physics and new models. Also both trains still are present on a great number of existing german/uk routes.
Nothing really wrong with the BR294 other than we could do with a version without the paddle antenna on the nose (for retro to BR290 and BR291). It looks good and runs great - they have never been a noisy loco in real world.
Absolute no-go. Upgrading them would break hundreds if not thousand of changes. All of the AP sound packs would stop working, all of the reskins would too, anything that aliases them as well - there is literally no reason to upgrade the Kuju assets as for almost everything better versions exist and have done so for years.
I'm not bashing anything. I'm just saying that the older stuff has had its day, and it shows. Saying that they are not very good is not bashing them. It's just making an observation. The Rail Blue of many Kuju models is just wrong. It's got nothing to do with the time of day. This is a computer program, it can be objectively measured. It's the same with many Kuju models. The worst offender is actually the 87... that's even more green. Which is why I am objectively measuring it. You can suggest it's weathering if you want, but it's clearly just been made in the wrong colour. The facts about Rail Blue are out there, and it's a British Standard colour with published mixing formulas for real life, and hex codes, and RGB values for every known colourspace, and CMYK values for printing. Whoever made the Kuju models, just eyeballed it, probably on an un-profiled screen with old photos as a reference. They got it wrong. It's as simple as that. So much copium in this thread. The Kuju models have had their day. They were great when there was nothing else, but please, just let them have a dignified retirement. The poly count is laughably low. The sounds are generally poor, the cab interiors are terrible, and the textures are awful. Sure there are newer third party reskins that go some way to addressing the latter, but that only addresses the exterior on a superficial level, which means we can still use them as AI to some extent, but driving them is awful. I wouldn't mind but when people start suggesting that they are actually better than the modern stuff, I have to question what makes people think this. They are clearly not.
