Ny-trenton: Usa Content Is Still Severely Flawed

Yes, I certainly agree that the limited timetable will be most noticeable between Newark and NYP, and somewhat more noticeable north of Rahway as well. However, from a quick glance at the current, actual NJT NEC timetable, I was able to count about 65 to 67 services operating under the 31xx, 37xx, 38xx, and 39xx headcodes, in each direction, daily, M-F. Now, by my estimation from what DTG has told us, there will be approximately 41 NJT services, not counting deadheads, in each direction. So, I think we can safely say that, even in that portion of this new route which is south of Rahway, the timetable will be more sparse than is prototypical, even if all the services that actually are present, are in fact, prototypical.

So, what we can say about the experience that this new route will deliver? I would say, fairly, that anyone unfamiliar with the route will probably be satisfied with the content, as they get to make station stops on the way back and forth from NYC, not really noticing the incorrect PIS and missing LIRR/Morrisville yard, and witness the occasional takeover and probably very rare adverse signal, all with some different locos to drive. However, for anyone expecting an accurate representation of the busyness of this route, they will most probably be disappointed. Of course that trade off has to be considered for each potential buyer, with the knowledge that this is almost certainly the only NY-T that will ever be made for TSW (bar NY Gateway), at least for a good long time. I think that for many of us, what was likely a day one purchase is now a wait-and-see, maybe on a discount, or maybe not at all situation, and that is unfortunate.

 

Technically that would be inaccurate now that I think about it... those 82 services also include other deadheads, according to JD.

So it will be less than 41 proper services each way...

 

It's 41 each way. 41 each direction makes 82

 

Thank you for pointing that out, as we can see the 82 services may even include additional deadheads, within that number. Although, as is probably obvious, this is not a day one purchase for me, I am hopeful that one of the early adopters will let the community know exactly how many services between Trenton/intermediate points and NYP we are looking at here.

 

I believe on yesterdays schedule from Trenton to Penn I counted 36 passenger services. So that would make 5 deadhead if is accurate

 

One more time for those in need...

 

So I looked a little deeper, The LIRR route had a total of 257 services and 181 playable passenger services. This is with
The old signaling system.
For the NEC NY-Trenton without counting the yard moves it has a total of 188 passenger services which probably around 10 are actual deadheads. So,with the new signaling and having about 5 different locos including the cab cars we netted 7 services which may or may not turn out to be all passenger services. If we add it all up without the sunny side moves ,we actually lost passenger services compare to the LIRR . So is safe to say hopefully we shouldn’t have any signaling issues with that limited amount. And we all know what a ghost town the LIRR is.

 

Are you saying that you saw this on the DTG route?

 

For me, an empty route is far more unrealistic than having traffic whiz by with not quite the right equipment or livery.

After hearing the horn on the ALP- 46 and hearing about the manually lapped brakes on the cab car, I am feeling a bit better as well.

 

No. I checked the time table for NJT for Friday February 17th from Trenton to Penn and they were 36 passenger services for that route. So if we compare the 41 total services they are offering and they mentioned some are deadheads so 41-36 would be 5 total deadhead one way. All speculation at this moment. Once the game comes out we will know the actual number. All we know for sure is 41 one way not going through sunnyside yard.

 

Deep down I know if they had another 3 weeks or so we would’ve have gotten a complete timetable. The Devs are DTG are very talented and I know they team is capable of great things if they are given the time and resources . This is why is so difficult and frustrating to accept. TSW3 is a great game and I hope for a great future ahead.

 

Oh yes, I was also counting services that start/terminate at Jersey Ave, which would necessarily increase this number. At the most charitable, and depending on the actual breakdown of the available services, it might be said that the line south of Jersey Ave to Trenton is fairly close to prototypical in regards to service frequency.

 

I forgot about the Jersey services

 

To be fair, you really can't compare this route with LIRR simply in the number of services, as NY-Trenton will be an A-B route, while LIRR features many branches (NY Penn, Atlantic Terminal, Hempstead and Hicksville). If LIRR had those 181 services just on one branch, it would feel much busier.

 

You are correct the LIRR route is not a good comparison as many services are also missing as is the NJT. If you include Amtrak services on the NY to Trento route it almost cancels each other. They point I was trying to make is comparing the new and old signaling system since Matt mentions having difficulties adding more services to it……

 

I think you misunderstood what Matt has said. I don't believe there would be any signalling related issues with adding more services to the route. They simply ran out of time to do so, according to Matt's words. So the signalling (probably) is fine and works as it should, they simply didn't have enough time to implement a properly busy timetable.

In comparison, LIRR already has a much busier timetable that they have made years ago, but it can't be released as LIRR's signalling is so bad that it could not handle it.

 

I think is a combination of both. Like I mentioned before I know if the Devs were giving the time and resources the full NJT timetable can be inserted from all the branches

 

So it wouldn't be possible to implement it into the existing LIRR even if it could solve LIRR's issues? That route could definitely benefit from some love given how cool network route it is.

 

Man, despites all of it's huge issues, LIRR has always been one of my favorite routes to drive on (especially with the M3). So insight like this of the route is always interesting to read, thanks for that!

On the other hand, it always makes me sad as well. I was always hoping for the route to get fixed and given a proper timetable, but it never happened. Best I can do nowdays is try to make semi-realistic and busy runs in the scenario planner, but even that is a challenge due to the lack of proper paths (not all platforms are usable and no paths for express tracks). The route had much more potential with all the yards, sidings and even Long Island City terminal, which is a shame didn't get used more.
The scenarios are pretty fun, the route actually feels busy while playing those and there are even Amtrak trains and LIRR stock on the sidings. One wishes the timetable mode could reproduce that feel as well...

 

Yeah. A signalling fix and proper timetable would breath new life into the route, even with all the other issues (weak scenery, graphical bugs, etc) remaining.

 

Their work on those UK and German routes doesn't compare to the routes here. Most of the short routes you're talking about are complete services. They aren't chopped off mid-way. Also, they have layers upon layers of traffic. The only route that comes close to that quality is the Boston to Providence route.

 

Amtrak owns the corridor. In TrainSim Classic, we have the NEC to Philly. Did they need Septa licensing for that route?

 

They don't. But then some would complain that phily 30th street station and the section between trenton and Philadelphia is a ghost town

 

TSC doesn't rely on a timetable system like TSW, it relies on scenarios. So the missing stock can be overlooked.

 

Does anyone know if they have ever attempted to obtain the SEPTA license? I've always been curious how hard they market themselves to obtain new licensing, there aren't a lot of downsides to a company (specifically rail operators in this case) giving out licensing for their "product." I asked someone who worked for Metrolink on the corporate side once, and she said they likely would have no problem giving out a license for this type of thing.

 

I’m regards to PIS:

Maybe part of the issue is consistency in the US rail network itself?

For Germany, the exact same PIS is at all stations so they make it properly once and it works everywhere.

UK is very similar. Some small differences between routes but basically the same.

For the US, I’m not an expert but I see in photos/videos that sometimes the PIS looks a lot different at different stations, even on the same line/operator. Not making excuses but that could be part of the reason they use a more generic one that isn’t accurate for any route.

 

NJT doesn’t even use PIS. The more modern stations have a departure screen, while others don’t really have anything. Metro-North/LIRR use something close enough to PIS.

 

unbranded is always an option. not the best option, but still an option. i really hope they push for SEPTA licensing though

 

I could be wrong, but I believe that DTG Matt has said before that they don't wait to do anything that's unbranded for Train Sim World. Whether that is still the case, I'm not sure, but I do agree that it'd be great to see them obtain the SEPTA licence if they can, especially since they were able to do it with BNSF, and I think we all know how notoriously reluctant BNSF were to give DTG their licence. So there's always hope if you ask me.

Edit: Seems Matt just beat me to that one and explained things in much more detail, but oh well XD

 

Thing is DTG never lost the BNSF license, its just it got complicated at one point on TSC so it was stuck to US releases only, it isn't like DTG was trying to get a one from someone they never had before.

 

Empirically, PHI - TRE is a ghost town when compared to TRE - NYP.

 

I'm glad someone got the reference.
DTG / TSW's equivalent would be a route with 2300 services.

 

Thanks for sharing that. I always wondered how these things work.
As in how gaming companies get permission to create these routes, and how it may or may not pan out.
Super interesting. It's awesome how MBTA reached out to DTG after seeing Caltrain.
Hopefully your team experiences more cool stuff like that.

Thanks.

 

Yeah, there are only a few stations (Secaucus, Newark Penn, Newark Airport, Metropark, and maybe Trenton) where there would even be screens at platform level on this route. The rest just have audio announcements and expect riders to use NJT's DepartureVision from their phone.

 

Well yes, that's true, but to not complicate things too much, I thought I'd simplify it. They may as well have not had it when it comes to TSW content since they didn't want to release content unbranded and of course didn't want to release content locked to a specific region. This does of course make it harder to obtain the licence for SEPTA, but again, I believe it's possible one day.

 

Amen to that!

 

Just chiming in with context about why imo TRE - NYP instead of PHI - TRE was a better idea.
In real life, Amtrak (inherited from PRR) used to run a train called "The Clocker" from PHI to NYP.
The service was very popular, so much so Amtrak didn't always have equipment to run them.
My current profile picture (not taken by me) is an example of that. It's an NJT ALP-46 in Philly with Amfleets.

When the Clockers were discontinued, Amtrak sold the slots to NJT.
So you may ask, why doesn't NJT run PHI - NYP?

The main reasons to my understanding are:

1. Politics. NJT was given a HARD time with Morrisville Yard, which is very close to Trenton. So 30th Street was more difficult.
   
2. Demand on the PHI - TRE stretch was lower than NYP - TRE, this was also true during Amtrak's run of the service. NJT didn't want to fight to run virtually empty trains to 30th Street.

I have a thread on Railroad.Net where I mentioned this.
You can read it in more detail here for context, I have the same username.

I never rode a Clocker. But from what I heard, the trains were very light from PHI to TRE, and PACKED (at times SRO) from TRE to NYP.
NJT's "Clocker" trains are the current 39xx trains.
They essentially make the same stops Amtrak's Clockers would, give or take (TRE - NYP of course):

• Princeton Jct
• New Brunswick
• Metropark
• Newark Penn
  
• New York

Once again, NJT's 39xx trains don't follow this to a t.
They may make additional stops (Hamilton for example), but they're based on Amtrak's Clocker.

I say all that to say this, even though the NYP - TRE DLC might not be ideal, as many want it to go to Philly.
But it looks like we would be faced with either this, or PHI - TRE. This DLC will likely be more fun than a TRE - PHL DLC.
Just giving context to my opinion. No diverging signals, just clear ahead. Staying on track .

 

Also, another history lesson, a visual one!
I found this YouTube video showing Trenton during rush hour in 1996.

​

This was before Morrisville Yard was rebuilt for NJT.
Notice how the outer tracks have both NJT and SEPTA trains, along with the large amount of positioning moves by SEPTA & NJT.
Even the low level platform was in use, and a diesel express makes an appearance!

Trenton isn't nearly as swamped today as it was 27 years ago. Morrisville helped a TON with that.
Morrisville will be in the game in spirit / my imagination.
Just sharing this because I thought it was cool for those interested.

 

Off topic of NY-Trenton but

Really hope one day your LIRR timetable can see the light of day (if the signalling gets fixed of course)

 

But why can the trains crash? I understand why they can crash but isn't it possible to have a failsafe so a train can not crash? I played this game a lot before I had my first crash in the game on the Harlem route. I was very surprised it was possible to crash into another train. I guess almost no one who plays this game buys it to play train crashes. If you remove the ability to crash would that not make negotiations easier? If you crash into another train we are talking about a bug and not a feature I presume?

 

This is funny coming from railroad companies whose trains keep derailing on a daily basis due to cutting corners and neglect of maintanance, lol. But is this not the reason why TSW doesn't even simulate derailings properly? If so, it's weird that we have incorrect physics, yet some companies still don't want to hand out their licences.

 

Except those that have those problems are already licensed (Pretty much every Class 1 railroad has a license deal with DTG barring KCS and Ferromex) It seems like its the commuter railroad that have the problem, not the freight lines.

 

i wanna see some gameplay vids when we can expect that because release is 21 feb ?

 

Stream tomorrow, probably. See the Railfan TV shedule.

 

There's a live stream tomorrow on YouTube and Twitch which will feature gameplay, and it'll be available to view as a non-live video afterwards. It was due to air last week but was delayed due to illness.

 

Yes why not just do like Railroad Tycoon 3 where one train faded out as the other passed through it and immediately give the player train the game over screen? No crash graphic, no body parts, nice and clean in fact the game needn't even mention "crash", just a terminal incident or similar.

Also there are some DTG own goals on this, just look at the number of level crossings on BBO where cars simply pass through the lowered barriers and in front of or through the train, albeit with no damage registering on either train or road vehicle but the point is, the route builders and testers shouldn't have have allowed this through. To the best of my knowledge not been fixed yet.

Not having deliberately crashed a train in Run 8, trying to remember what happens if two trains collide - I think they both just get insta-removed from the world. In fact come to think of it that did happen to me trying to sort out the industry at Trona and one train on the balloon loop was slightly foul of the adjacent line, I side wiped it very slightly and yes they both disappeared - much to my annoyance!

 

It's still crashing after all and it can still be posted and give bad pr. Doesn't stop people from not crashing either. Crashing isn't the only thing that makes a licensing deal not work. There can also be other risks to having a train in game which Matt discussed

 

Thanks for the really awesome response and answer to the question Matt! I appreciate you taking the time to explain, as that is a lot of information I had never heard before!