Peak Forest Community Feedback List

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by mattwild55, Feb 7, 2023.

  1. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    A couple of people have suggested making a new thread to capture the community feedback so far for the announced Peak Forest steam-era route, so here it goes.

    I will try and keep on top of this and any other related threads to update this post with anything more that pops up regarding this route, at least until we're a lot closer to release.

    A (hopefully helpful) summary of player feedback

    General excitement for another steam route, scenery set to be spectacular, good choice of route considering currently announced locos. Concerns / questions to hopefully be positively answered as follows:

    Route end point
    Some concern over Ambergate as an illogical end point considering express services don't stop there. Far more logical to extend 10 miles south to Derby if possible where nearly all express services stop.

    Timetable
    Is the full 1963 working timetable going to be accurately represented, with real-life timings, or as close as we can get with the locos included?

    Buxton - Miller's Dale shuttle
    Related to above point - how is this going to be represented in-game? Operated by a DMU in 1963 and had been so for six years at this point. I would suggest two similar possible solutions:

    1) Class 101 included in BR green whiskered livery
    2) Class 111 included, based on 101 but with slightly increased power output

    This would ideally be included in the base pack but a BR Green gameplay pack might be required if it needs to be financially justified at DTG Towers. If there is a gameplay pack to come, it would be far better to launch simultaneously with the route or ASAP afterwards rather than months or years down the line.

    Banking operations
    8Fs pulling heavy freight would have almost always been banked on this line by a 4F or similar. Banking isn't currently supported in the game - presumably this will be an added feature?

    Another thing to consider is that without assistance, getting these locos over the Peak Forest summit is going to be incredibly challenging or indeed impossible with prototypical loads.

    Class 45 Peak in BR Green
    Would suit the route perfectly given the time period. Additionally, would allow those who don't enjoy steam to play the route. A lot of players may find steam operation on this very steeply graded route to be extremely challenging / frustrating so this would help those players more used to diesels from NTP / TVL!

    OldVern would very much like some sort of buffet or restaurant car to be added to the express trains
    Stale sandwiches and blindingly hot coffee, here we come.

    The community has been given this opportunity to provide feedback earlier than usual in the route dev cycle so I'm optimistic about perhaps a positive response from DTG?

    Tagging DTG JD and DTG Matt as this will hopefully prevent you from having to trawl through loads of other posts if I've done it right. Cheers both, looking forward to this route particularly.
     
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  2. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    That's a very nice and comprehensive list, good work! I hope DTG takes some of the feedback on board.
     
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  3. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent list and for the diesel locomotives why not add in Classes 20 31 & 33 in Green Colours. Assuming those were assigned here. Achievement wise BR Green Classes 20 31 33 45 count for original versions and layer into the existing routes they were from. These are TVL 20 & 31 33 WSR and Huddersfield line NTP Class 45.
     
  4. Jamy

    Jamy Well-Known Member

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    Class 45 Peak in BR Green
    Would suit the route perfectly given the time period. Additionally, would allow those who don't enjoy steam to play the route. A lot of players may find steam operation on this very steeply graded route to be extremely challenging / frustrating so this would help those players more used to diesels from NTP / TVL!
    Not a steam fan....but BR Green, yes, that would grab my attention
     
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  5. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    Thanks folks - have bookmarked this thread and shared internally.

    Just to manage expectations - I wouldn't expect more locos to be added to the route at this stage; the other stuff has been circulated.
     
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  6. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Many thanks JD.

    Regarding the locos, I think the suggestion that the BR Classes 101 and 45 from Northern Trans-Pennine could be lightly reworked and re-liveried as part of a paid-for gameplay pack might be workable? I don't think we're (at this stage) asking for brand-new locos from scratch.
     
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  7. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    MSB wants to have a word with you. Granted, DTG actually cheated and it isn’t proper banking (at least according to German rules) but I would imagine the same sort of solution if banking is featured on this route.


    That got a good chuckle out of me :D
     
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  8. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Just wanted to add here, personally I’m not interested in steam - especially not in driving it. I do, however appreciate the role it played in BR history & I’m certainly not against it.

    With the above said, if we had steam routes that came with the first gen of DMU’s and locos, I would certainly buy them then.

    We have a gap that needs filling in terms of older BR stock & steam routes are a good opportunity to add stock from that era.
     
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  9. CrAzZyKiLLa

    CrAzZyKiLLa Well-Known Member

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    I would add also the current concerns regarding the current state of steam features and physics in the game such as the lack of fully manual firing and issues with constant safety valves.
     
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  10. Bravo2six

    Bravo2six Well-Known Member

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    Going to be that guy, but, the more diesels that get potentially added, the more I lose interest.

    I like steam, i like the 2nd gen DMUs but the locos themselves for me are just boring

    They aren't interesting to plat and the 101 would probably actively stop me from buying it.
    I dispise it and it's driving style isn't fun.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2023
  11. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps this route is a good candidate for a later timetable expansion with some early diesels as a DLC.
     
  12. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    By the time the route is set, diesels would certainly have been making inroads. The Buxton to Millers Dale as has now been stated ad-infinitum, was a DMU by then. If Derby was included the shunting work would have pretty much been by diesel shunter. Therefore, early diesels would be more suited to this route than the Crewe to Liverpool route.

    I am still waiting (with baited breath) to see what they do about the Millers Dale to Buxton service, I suspect it will not be featured.
     
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  13. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Same old story with the harlem line ending at north white plains instead of southeast.

    Looks like it has already been cutted.....
     
  14. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Arguably this is substantially less logical even than your example - at least some (or even most?) trains terminate at NWP and there is a substantial yard there, neither of which could be said for Ambergate.
     
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  15. coursetim

    coursetim Well-Known Member

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    If there are no other plans to add/reveal locos for this route I think its a bit disappointing.

    Really love the 4F as a locomotive but would there have been more appropriate additions (I know it shunted drop off trains etc and ran a few passenger services) ? The games been crying out (and the community) for a steam commuter locomotive/shunter and it seems it would be more called for on this route.

    I would love a smaller appropriate steam locomotive for this and SOS to shunt and run some commuter/local services but I wouldn't mind a DMU like a reskinned 101. Although I believe they said it was a steam only pack?

    Despite this I am really looking forward to the route and will definitely buy it once its out (UK steam is my thing personally).
     
  16. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    +1 for a BR Green diesels pack. A separate timetable for such would be ideal for those not wanting to mix steam and diesel. I suspect the Class 45 would need to be reworked with vacuum brakes? A smaller diesel (such as the Class 20) would be a nice addition also (if appropriate for the route in this era).
     
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  17. Bravo2six

    Bravo2six Well-Known Member

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    Ambergate may just come down to playtime length, given the route (i suspect) is average speed, extending it the 10 miles or so may push those service lengths to that which isn't suitable to the average player?

    I, myself, find BCC awkward in this regard, an 80 odd minute service is alot of time.
     
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  18. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    Thing is though a well done transition era route could be a massive seller. A lot of interesting stuff happened such as diesels piloting steam. A lit of us like the challenge of 1st gen dmus. A world away from one handled soul less modern stuff, 1st gen dmus had one foot out of the steam era.
     
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  19. SonicScott91

    SonicScott91 Well-Known Member

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    Nah, if they do a BR Green diesel expansion. I want it mixed with steam as that would be more accurate of the time period. New (and not always reliable) Diesel locomotives running alongside worn out, poorly kept steam locomotives that would make for a great route/timetable!

    Having a Steam OR diesel timetable over a Steam AND diesel timetable would be a bland experience in comparison.
     
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  20. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely this. I think DTG are missing a huge opportunity not making this a transition era route. Throw in a reskinned Peak, the DMU for the local traffic and maybe a reskinned 08 for quarry shunting - put it through to Derby and there is your nice rounded product.
     
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  21. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Derby to Chinley with an all stations service was about 90 mins in the 1963 timetable. We have runs longer than that already, some of the German routes and the stoppers on NTP or even BML. Peninsula Corridor is 100 mins for a slow train from SF to San Jose.
    Expresses covered Derby to Chinley in around an hour.
     
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  22. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    I think the strongest argument in favour of including a diesel or two is simply accessibility - steam locos are already relatively difficult to drive (and stop accurately!) on a pretty flat route, how are the playerbase as a whole going to find straining up a 1 in 80 gradient with a fully loaded rake of ICI wagons?

    The diesels (especially the Class 45) would add a relatively straightforward entry point for those who wanted to experience the route but might otherwise leave frustrated because of the complexity of steam. We shouldn't exclude those who don't want to jump right into the deep end operationally. Those of us who have hundreds of hours behind the throttle / regulator will take to it like a duck to water but think of those who just like to dip in for the ambience once in a while?

    Of course, historical accuracy is great and a worthwhile endeavour for sure, but it would be good if the whole playerbase of all skill levels can enjoy this gorgeous slice of countryside, and this route in this historical era is a really good opportunity to cover all bases.
     
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  23. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    While I'm not a huge fan of DMUs (for my own reasons), but having a Class 45, even if retrofitted for the time period, would not be a bad idea to drive along with steam, even if for express passengers or such. There have been many missed opportunities for having a transitional era where steam is fading out and diesels being the better newcomers of the world. And even if this would be an expansion pack like before (you all know what I'm talking about), I would say it'll be a nice fit for this route for those that enjoy not only hard-working steam, but also the early years of diesels as well.
     
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  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Diesels would be accurate. I have seen photos of green Peaks working St. Pancras to Manchester services over the route. I am not sure the class 40 would be impossible to be seen, although they were more on the western division of the Midland region I believe.

    My April 1963 Railway Observer comments on the different steam engines working between Nottingham and Manchester due to the poor availability of diesels.

    The July 1963 edition comments on the move to complete dieselisation on the Midland division, which this line was part of. And that the Peaks dominated expresses and fitted freights but Jubilees were making sporadic appearances. It talks about D108 (a peak) on a St. Pancras to Manchester service hitting a farm tractor on a crossing. I would surmise that diesels if anything by 1963 were in the ascendency and therefore if we are trying to be accurate not having a green Peak included does not necessarily fit the year chosen.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2023
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  25. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

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    I like steam locos a lot but I love diesels much more so I would adore to see the Peak included with this route as it would be (combined with the beautiful scenery) the main selling point for me after the steam locos which would just be an added bonus. Although it wouldn't totally correct I would prefer they just put the green paint on the 45/1s we have if it is too complicated to rework them into 45/0 condition: something is better that nothing.
     
  26. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I agree with those people saying that diesels should appear on the route at the same time as the steam. A gameplay pack would make it possible. Maybe there is already a plan in place to add such a pack later. Some green diesels to flesh out the timetable as an option to buy for those who want it. If it is mainly authentic for the time and makes a better timetable then it ticks lots of boxes.
     
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  27. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well they would really need to put the headcode boxes on at least as they were a feature of diesels at the time, apart from early ones with the discs. A green Peak without them would not be something I would want to see personally.
     
  28. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes I would expect the headcode boxes to be included, as a green Peak would look wrong without them. I was more talking about the fact I would prefer to have the ETH equitment left there, as it can just be ignored, than not have a Peak at all.
     
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  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Ah okay, well yes I agree that would be fine, it would certainly be better than not having one.
     
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  30. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes - didn't mean to insinuate that it would not be accurate, far from it. Merely that I felt the accessibility argument was even stronger than the historical accuracy for me!
     
  31. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes I agree with what you are saying.

    I can't see DTG changing direction, there would need to be the groundwell of opinion you would get if this route was set in the last five years. Maybe a pack will come later.

    I will live with Ambergate if we get a realistic local service on the Buxton branchline but I can't see them addressing that either.
     
  32. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    The opinion before Glasgow Edinburgh came out was oooh it will be fine with its one train and gimmick fest. The after release loads of comments on how much better it could have been if one more train was included and a spur or two....
     
  33. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see both together on the same timetable. I suppose those not wanting to mix steam and diesel could just not purchase the diesels pack... (we need a facepalm emoji on this forum)
     
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  34. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Disappointingly it appears that Ambergate is still confirmed at the end point for this route as of the latest roadmap, and there's been no positive feedback given on the point of the BR Green diesels either. Given the rate that DTG are rattling through the releases at the moment I'm expecting a release in April or early May so I doubt much will change at this point sadly.
     
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  35. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Not good. I just hope there is a reasonable explanation as to why it was felt adding another few miles and moderately complex track around Derby (but far less than most of the major locations on SoS) was beyond the scope of this route.
     
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  36. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Also finding the continued 'no we can't do that' on the matter of the BR Green 101 and 45 to be frustrating. I asked Matt about it on the recent charity livestream and he said that when he raised the question (presumably to the loco builders), he was basically laughed out of the room. I'm not sure why - I can't imagine that it would be that much more difficult than changing a 37 to a /5 or /7 variant.

    Why it is acceptable to have completely unrealistic timetables or locomotive allocations when unrealistic locomotives would never be accepted? Or is Peak Forest going to be another empty timetable?

    TBH the more I read about the route in real-life, the more I'm not sure why a Peak Forest TSW route would ever have got clear of the drawing board without BR Green diesels included, at least set in the era that it is, especially considering that the requisite locomotives already (at least partly) exist in-game.

    I don't mind paying extra for them in a gameplay pack (perhaps launched simultaneously), but they must be there for me to consider buying the route as it stands.

    As you've said before, with BR Green diesels and a relatively short extension to Derby, this could be an absolute cracker of a route, but at the moment it's beginning to look like the commercial side of the business isn't going to give the route and loco builders the time they need to make it right.
     
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  37. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, it can only be a budgetary thing surely! I know they have to set budgets but there is such a thing as immersion and gameplay.

    Unless they pull of a surprise before release then I won't be purchasing it.

    I would rather they had concentrated on adding to the abysmally quiet SOS before embarking on a new route.
     
  38. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, even if the 101 isn't 100% accurate, Buxton only had a couple of vehicles and not in 1963, it would be enough for me to purchase it. What are they going to run between Buxton and Millers Dale?

    If they had done some research they would have known that by 1963 diesels were very much part of the scene, if not dominating most of the passenger services.
     
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  39. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

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    It would be very disappointing not to have the green diesels on the route in 63: they weren't a rare occurrence.
     
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  40. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Yes rapidly falling away from my Day One radar despite my initial enthusiasm. The DTG lackadaisical approach seems alive and kicking.
    He is the Executive Producer, aka The Boss. He shouldn't be raising the question, he should be instructing them on what's required for the paycheck. Or, as I suspect, the talent that built the BR Classic diesels is no longer on the scene and they have nowhere else to turn.

    So for me, unless the route offers one or more of the following, it will probably be relegated to the Christmas sale:
    Extension through to Derby.
    Inclusion of green Class 45 and Class 101.
    Substantial and demonstrable improvement in steam physics and sounds.
    Some additional Mark One vehicles, including a catering car.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2023
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  41. elric#1386

    elric#1386 Well-Known Member

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    Could this be the reason why Matt is getting the option to create our own formations in to production?
    Is it going to be his way of saying " Hey we know that we haven't implemented any diesels. But now you can add your own, using the scenario planner!"
     
  42. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I hope not, apart from the fact that scenario planner is pretty poor, one of the selling points for TSW for me is the timetable mode.
     
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  43. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

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    I must agree with you here Vern mate it does seem that it could be quite a disappointing route really. I know I've said it already but I genuinely can't believe that there won't be any green diesels especially considering the fact that only a few modifications would need to be made.
     
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  44. mgbgt

    mgbgt Well-Known Member

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    The peak surely needs to be included! I have no interest in steam and won’t buy this route full stop if there aren’t any diesel layers!
     
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  45. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Even if Matt was the boss, certain decisions have to be made depending on their budget and possibly time constraints. If the green versions are very different from their blue versions, then they can't be added onto the route cuz making brand new locomotives take time and dtg don't have all the time in the world to create multiple new locomotives into a single dlc.
     
  46. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    For the Green Coloured 45 101 37 31 33 47 Blue Star MU and Class 20 locomotives if made for this route then the achievements for them will count for NTP Huddersfield Line WSR & Tees Valley Line original versions.
     
  47. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Poor excuse. If he can’t make a case for enough resources to round the project off nicely, then why bother starting it in the first place?
     
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  48. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Because it's DLC content for a video game made for entertainment purposes, not a life-saving piece of medical equipment.

    Sheeesh.
     
  49. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Really? Doesn’t matter what it is, if a job is worth doing properly… Besides a rounded and attractive product will bring far more sales than a route from nowhere to nowhere with one new loco and two recycled steamers. Looks like the DTG adoration club out in force this morning…
     
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  50. smugstarlord#4202

    smugstarlord#4202 Well-Known Member

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    So would that mean a different start/end point other than Ambergate?
     

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