PC Will We Ever Get The Promised Fixes?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by grumypop51, Jan 12, 2023.

  1. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone's disputing that there are genuine reasons for the queue. The problem is that TSW2 patches seem likely to be forever at the back of the queue as new TSW3 releases and patches are placed in front of them, and that's on DTG.
     
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  2. FredElliott

    FredElliott Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, the above was to explain the possible reasons why it is the case as a lot of it is determined by processes and business decisions that normally would never be seen by an average consumer. Its up to the individual to determine whether those reasons are justifiable to them or not
     
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  3. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I do. There is no genuine reason to announce big fixes in the works for TSW2, then instead re-release the game under the name of TSW3 and publish the fixes only for TSW3.

    Well, there is one genuine reason: to set up a paywall and force people into buying your new release.
     
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  4. arek#2842

    arek#2842 Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand the logic of DTG postponing these patches for TSW2.

    Don't they understand that the owners of TSW2 can still generate income?

    Game has been on a market for only 2 years, there are probably quite a lot of owners who didn't bought every single DLC available for it yet and would probably do so, if the game would still be supported.
     
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  5. simpman

    simpman Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I don't get the paywall. Why purposely fragment your player base when we all know it's basically the same guts inside the machine? They would probably have made (a bit) more profit if they chose not to delist previous games, didn't make TSW2020 exclusive addons unavailable to purchase and made base game updates always free like most games do, like TSC does.

    Then you wouldn't have players on different versions wondering why TSW2 got addon manager in September but TSW3 had to wait until February or updates that were made for TSW2 were only coming out for TSW3.

    Then I would have the option to purchase the routes they included as a bundle or individually without having to consider having an additional game on my PS5 taking up space, or yet another "Train Sim" game in my Steam library. Giving the consumer options puts the power in their hand and makes purchasing decisions easier. Oh and by options I don't mean release 13 editions of a base game package... thanks though.

    The only reason they release new games is because that's where the 'hype' is. If you look at the player graphs for almost any game most of the active players are right around launch. But in the case of this game, since the core is mostly the same it's only ever going to attract about the same number of long-term players. You talk about costs to release updates n such, well how much does it cost to release a new game and buy a click clack song? It ain't free, I can tell you that.

    And each successive edition of Train Sim World has attracted less overall players, at least according to my limited data from Playstation Trophies and Steam Reviews. It is likely that the players who stay are better customers who buy more DLC, though. A lot of people will buy the base game not enjoy it and never pick up a DLC pack, for example.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2023
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  6. arek#2842

    arek#2842 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly!

    Making TSW3 upgrade free of charge would save them to distinguish fixes for both games which would effect in less workload on patches and would not cut off TSW2 owners from either new releases or a reason to buy previously developed DLCs.

    Now, DTG deside otherwise an I'm as a TSW2 owner is left without any reason to buy DLCs available for TSW2 - because those will never be fixed. Nor am I convinced to buy TSW3, because I know that at some point it will be left abandoned just like TSW2 with no support.

    I don't understand it.

    DTG business model is most likely based on producing and selling DLCs, not a single core game, therefore they should care mostly to provide those DLCs to be available for the largest customer base available there is.
     
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  7. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Mar 9, 2023
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  8. simpman

    simpman Well-Known Member

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    These people are not the problem. It is the people they work for who should understand the frustration they put their players through with some of their business decisions. I have nothing against the development team or community team at Dovetail, they do the best with what they have. Matt especially has my utmost respect for the challenges he faces being basically the public face for a game with a very passionate community, I wouldn't want his job for any amount of money.
     
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  9. orb

    orb Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'm still missing a couple of DLCs from a year ago and one or two from over a year ago, which I'll be surely getting first before anything that was created specially for TSW3. I'm just waiting for an adequate price (i.e. a discount higher or equal to what it was in the past). After I'll do that, I'll be installing them in TSW2 only, even if they receive fixes just in TSW3, unless they'll additionally get a TODv4 treatment. As for TSW3 DLCs, since they are around twice as expensive, they'll need to wait for twice as high discount.
     
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  10. Chas

    Chas Well-Known Member

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    They don't have to. They have a small team of fanatical cheerleaders on here who will always "buy" the company claims and tirelessly defend everything they do however obviously naff it may be. No call outs but we all know who they are with their ridiculously high post counts and non stop tedious gushing about how wonderful and faultless DTG are and how unjustified we customers are to point out any shortcomings.

    Is it me or do Matt and JD now seem uncomfortably stilted on their carefully scripted streams? With fixed uneasy smiles and often clumsy banter they sometimes look like people on a hostage video being forced against their will to deliver a propaganda message on camera.

    Maybe we should get a crack special forces team together in Ghost Recon Wildlands to rescue them in gloriously smooth non stuttering 4k video.
     
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  11. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    TSW2 fixes: as we said in the Roadmap stream on Tuesday, you're right to keep asking, and you're right to feel aggrieved they're not out yet.

    It is a little more complicated than 'stick 'em in a build and ship 'em', though. We have a finite amount of build servers, and a finite amount of individuals we can use to create said builds. The patch that was launched on TSW3 launch day was probably the single largest patch we've ever released, which in itself causes some complications, particularly with running it through Platform pipelines such as Sony or Microsoft's.They are in a 'queue', but it's not quite a linear 'one thing in, one thing out' queue.

    These aren't excuses, by the way - but they hopefully add some context as to why it might not have happened yet.

    Being honest, I can't see them being released in March with how busy things are, but as we've said on numerous occasions, we are committed to getting them out to you.
     
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  12. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think we'd worked that one out. The question is why TSW3 DLC and patches is being allowed to jump the queue ahead of TSW2 patches.
     
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  13. trainsimcz

    trainsimcz Well-Known Member

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    As i see that DTG is busy with TSW 3 i dont see any busy activity with TSW 2 so as TSW 2 is completely separate game i see there plenty of free slots for releasing that promissed stuff (or did DTG move everybody to the TSW 3 project while you were promissing that there will be still stuff for TSW 2 ?). Its just so sad that even for TSW 2020 there was no free slot for the whole almost 3 years to release promised fix for Cement Circle scenario which DTG break with Class 20 release. And yeah that fix was promissed that it will be released after TSW 2 release.. oh wait.. looks like we are in the same situation again :D So what its gonna be next year ? Wohoooo TSW 4 announcement but we will keep updating TSW 3, you have nothing to be worried about. You are not forced to buy TSW 4, there will be still content for TSW 3 after TSW 4 release... And then with latest DLC release for TSW 3 (before TSW 4 release)... lets break some stuff in TSW 3 to make them buy TSW 4 because the TSW 3 will require some fixes so you can enjoy it again... sounds like a good plan :D Oh yeah but lets promise them those fixes ... to show them that we care and move the dev team into the TSW 4.
    And what if players will ask about those fixes for TSW 3 ?
    - easy solution, lets feed them with "we dont have empty slot for releasing the fix right now but once there will be one, we will push the update"... that excuse was working for 3 years, so its tested, it will work again, as long as we dont say that the game is death a that promised update will never come, users will be happy to see some activity and that will make them quiet :D
    Funny is that this is not even a joke... thats reality how is DTG taking a care about their customers.
     
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  14. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Recently a link to a TSC TGV Reseau thread made rounds around even the TSW forums. I've gone through that thread, and something along these lines came up multiple times there (ironically from a multitude of community managers), then the DLC was pulled from sales, and the whole thing was swept under the rug. That DLC came out in 2018 and saw no fixes at all. Pardon me if my expectations are quite set by this example and don't allow me to believe this statement.
     
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  15. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    Well, I appreciate your courage to chime in and give some heads-up regarding this matter. But I have a strong feeling that DTG have to walk the talk! At this chapter of a badly written soap opera the ´benefit of doubt´ credit is gone. Of course, I can only speak for myself but if one looks across this forum, one might think I´m not alone with that feeling.
     
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  16. RedTiger SA92

    RedTiger SA92 Member

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  17. arek#2842

    arek#2842 Well-Known Member

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    JD didn't said anything new, just the same thing in different words: TSW3 content has priority over TSW2 pres crew updates.

    Fine, I understand that.

    But you should put some reasonable date, some deadline, by when that update for TSW2 have to definitely be released. Half a year passed since TSW3 release and DTG is still pushing away that update with the same reason: no slot.

    Well, you decide what is released and when or who? I guess you.

    Then find a slot and release it. Push one DLC for TSW3 to be released a little later. It will definitely gain in terms of quality for thay extra time for QA and developing.

    Meanwhile owners of TSW2 will finally get what was promised and you'll prove to be trustworthy and respectful company, if such values means something to you.
     
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  18. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    They've mentioned in the past that they don't put dates on anything unless they are 100% sure. And the only sure things they seem to have these days are the rush job routes they're releasing for TSW3. Sounds like a very disorganized company IMO.
     
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  19. simpman

    simpman Well-Known Member

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    Based on the Roadmap and the upcoming content, I gathered that. An interesting thought, though: I had another Unreal PS5 game push an update to their game without pushing an update through the platform holders. It wasn't much, my guess is they were able to use a remote engine.ini from their own servers, so we're not talking large files here. But it allowed a way for the developer to push small updates to their graphics engine without going through platform holders queues.

    I'm sure you'll never be able to launch big improvements this way, but it is something to consider as you move forward.
     
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  20. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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  21. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I honestly wouldn’t expect any fixes for TSW 2 to be released. I think they’re quietly hoping those still wanting the fixes will get fed up and go away.
     
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  22. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    Come on JD, we were promised fixes in October, but it seems to us if you look, all the attention is on the next new thing and to heck with previous loyal customers who purchased nearly all DLC and in some cases ALL DLC. Now you are in danger of losing those loyal customers who would still probably continue to purchase content they don't own, if we were being treated a little better. Indeed had we been treated better, we may well have dug into our pockets and purchased the new version. Alas, once bitten, twice shy. As has been explained here and elsewhere, some of us don't want shiny things like snow flurries etc. nor did we really care about whether or not our trains were filled with passengers (although in all honesty, a few more in some carriages would be nice), nor do we care that some of the scenery isn't as good as it could be, or the occasional stutter and so forth. We spend most of our time in the cabin, learning to drive the trains and improving on our abilities.All we want is trains that behave as designed, without spontaneous derailments, or clanking buffers during normal acceleration and the ability to complete a route/service without crashes. However what you now see is a capital strike by us, as we will no longer purchase anything and why pray tell, would we purchase another version after the treatment we have received?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2023
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  23. The_Drunken_Engineer

    The_Drunken_Engineer Well-Known Member

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    That's a very nice summation to this thread. I just want to acknowledge that if it dies without recognition.
     
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  24. simpman

    simpman Well-Known Member

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    I just hope that they can use delays to include an updated Addons Manager that puts it more in line with what was released for Train Sim World 3, after some of the last kinks are worked out.

    Even if and when I purchase Train Sim World 3, I think at times it would be nice to revisit Train Sim World 2 and I would like it not to be ignored and left in an bad place where some things don't work.

    For example I did the first tutorial in the journey for Main-Spessart Bahn, I think, and it asked me to put my headlights into reduced and I couldn't do it for some reason. It left me a bit frustrated and perplexed, and I just ended my session and played other games.

    Tutorials often break because they have locked out some of the controls. Why do they not employ auto testing to ensure that the tester is able to complete the tutorials following the instructions and with the same limitations as the player? That way if updates break tutorials (or even scenarios for that matter) the auto tester will catch it before it gets released.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2023
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  25. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    If the appetite was there to find a slot for any updates, it would have been done.

    Instead they continue with the corporate waffle, ultimately knowing there is nothing the end user can do about it apart from threads like this.

    They know full well that there are enough people who will keep dipping into their pockets and providing DTG with what they have obviously decided is an acceptable income.

    Sure they would probably like more, but no doubt the amount of work required is disproportionate to the extra revenue it will generate.
     
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  26. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    Launching new DLCs means more income. Fixing old bugs means zero income. Which will have priority?

    I don't expect them to admit that they will never fix them, as that could potentially open them to a class action lawsuit.
     
  27. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    I'm on TSW2 and will stick with it. Like the dark UI better and GodMode gives me dynamic weather.

    See it this way: No patch - no more new bugs! ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2023
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  28. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    It's important to automate build and release processes. In my job we had four teams doing maintenance to a a big and complex customer administration system. Releasing things was hard, it usually took at least a week work to do all the paperwork and get the release built and tested. We had to release on Sunday morning, not to disturb running processes and users. We then started automating this process. We automated the paperwork, so the people that had to approve (f.i. QA, department management, and so on)the release could do it right into the release application. We automated collecting all stuff for release and we got rid of the restriction you could not release during business hours. When I left the company,the release process was a routine job, involving one senior developer. He had to build a test run on a special build server and then could trigger the release next day.

    You probably cannot do this in the DTG context. But it will help you a lot to automate this process and make it simple.This will not be a single step, in my company it took us three years to do the full automation. Btw when we started this, the system existed 15 years, nobody before thought about improving this type of processes and give it priority.
     
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  29. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    Good point!! Hadn't thought that through like this. Aaah! Optimism!:D
     
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  30. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    If only we had the number of players for Xbox and epic as well. The decline of players on Playstation really says alot
     
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  31. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    This is not true. Fixes can earn a company money because there can be some customers that may have held off of buying something until the product is in a better state. Happens all the time in this industry. It wouldn't be a lot of money but they wouldn't be making zero dollars
     
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  32. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I see DTG as company who want to push to their long suffering customers that they are just as open as an Indie game but have the support of a triple-A game. In reality they are a multi million pound company with the morals of EA. The Roadmap at best is something they might do or fix in the long run. It used to be sort of openish many years ago but no-one could argue they are now not in the slightest.

    Why the comparison with EA? DTG have several staff that have come from EA and I would argue that they BS more than them as EA do release fixes after a while. An indie game is very open and usually are successful because of it, DTG are just full of it. If TSW2 is a separate game now DTG how about showing some good will and release an editor for it? EH? Of course they won't cause no-one would buy any TSW3 stuff ever again and DTG will look foolish at how they couldn't fix bugs.

    But then DTG concentrate on the important stuff no? They have banned the word 'Russia' Just stunning and brave no? I was shocked to hear it hasn't stopped the bombing but I'm sure your virtue signalling has them quaking in fear? Or perhaps no-one gives a toss what you think and want you to fix the game as promised or for once be honest and say you have no intention of doing it so people can make their own minds up whether to continue to support TSW or not.
     
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  33. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    A healthy community and good service of DLCs could actually generate quite a larger income. You'd be more prone to buy even DLCs you otherwise wouldn't, because you're happy with the product. Meanwhile, I haven't bought a DLC for about half a year, because I am unhappy with the overall quality.
     
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  34. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    This has been my argument throughout! Unfortunately DTG seem to have adopted the mantra of "there's a sucker born every minute" and until they run out of suckers, they'll continue in the same vein, simply flogging shiny new things.
    Banning the word Russia? I didn't know they had, but if so, I too am mightily surprised that hasn't had some effect on Tsar Vlad! :D
     
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  35. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's a low blow. The Sicilian Mafia looks down on EA's morals.
     
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  36. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    Funny bugger! Very funny! Good to be cheered up on such a dismal thread. Thanks! :D
     
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  37. The_Drunken_Engineer

    The_Drunken_Engineer Well-Known Member

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    [removed - political and not relevant to thread - JD]

    To get back on track, DTG, you have a good business model. It's great to look forward to a new route every couple months and it keeps it fresh and exciting. Please don't turn your back on your once loyal TSW2 patrons. Fix what you promised and let us all move on together. So much of your product is quite top notch. It's a shame it's being held back by so little.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2023
  38. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Let's try and keep politics out of this thread, it's raising some good points and politics is a sure fire way to give them reason to shut it down.
     
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  39. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    There is no reason for politics to enter this thread - if it continues to do so, as longo239 suggests, we'll lock it.
     
  40. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    It's a bit funny, considering DTG themselves introduced said politics into the game (by banning russian CC content) then locks threads if it gets mentioned.

    Now I do agree that this issue is off topic for this thread, but the other thread talking especially about this also got simply locked. Regardless of what my or anyone's opinion is of the issue, I think it's questionable to do something, then lock every thread that mentions it.

    Anyway, wouldn't want to continue off-topic discussion, just wanted to raise my concerns about some forum moderation practices.
     
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  41. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    Roll out the promised fixes for TSW2, i.e. walk the talk, dear DTG!
    That´s what this thread is all about. Nothing more, nothing less.
     
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  42. arek#2842

    arek#2842 Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why DTG is not willing to select the easiest option, in my opinion, which is: offer TSW3 core game with Training Center update for free?

    Why I think it is the easiest choice?
    1. DTG could state that TSW2 is not longer supported and will not receive any udpates or fixes from now on. So now it is the clients choice if he/she wants to play TSW2 with the issues identified and not fixed, but if you want fixes - there is a free update to TSW3, jsut download it and receive them now;
    2. DTG would not have to search for a release slots for TSW2 fixes;
    3. Nobody would feel cheated by the company and paywalled from the fixes;
    4. DTG instantly gets (almost) all those TSW2 users in TSW3 world, ready to buy new DLCs.
    Just checked on UK PS store and the starter packs prices are the same as equivalent routes DLCs, hence in fact DTG has no revenue coming from TSW3 core game right now anyway, am I right?

    Unless there is some justification, business or eticwise, for not following this option, which I oversighted.
     
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  43. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    In a similar way, but obviously a bit different, I don’t see why players are continuing to wait for the fixes to come to TSW2 instead of just buying TSW3 and having done with it. It can be bought for more or less the the price of the route it contains or with a bargain amount of content for bigger bundles. Plus it enables further releases to be bought in the future.

    But why do this? The fixes that everyone is waiting for will not be all the fixes that will make TSW2 anywhere near as good as TSW3 is now.

    I’m much happier now that the add-ons manager has been released for PS5 because it means I don’t have to play TSW2 with my trains bouncing off the track all the time. All my routes are in TSW3 and it really is a much better experience overall.

    Instead of thinking of having to buy TSW3 as a paywall set up by DTG think of your refusal to buy TSW3 as a self imposed playwall. Just buy it and end your suffering.

    Okay, I’ll await my crucifixion for saying this. It’s good advice though given the situation. It’s something positive you can do to solve a problem instead of waiting for DTG to pull their finger out and half solve your problem for you.
     
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  44. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Let's see...
    • You buy broken a product
    • Developer promises to fix said product
    • Developer instead re-releases the same game a year later and releases the fixes only for the "new" product
    • You are left with your broken product and forced to pay AGAIN for the same thing to get the promised fixes
    And you are happy to pay and think everyone should do the same?

    Could you imagine if at a restaurant they would mess up your food and said "don't complain, just buy it again, it will be done properly next time"?
     
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  45. trainsimcz

    trainsimcz Well-Known Member

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    Why should i have 5 same games on my steam account ? Why should i always buy new product every 2 years with the same bugs and after 2 years just leave it on my steam acc so i can buy new version.
     
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  46. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    It's a promise made repeatedly and a promise that should be kept. It's an ethical issue.
     
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  47. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    EA do the same thing every year with various games, i.e., bring out a new version of a game without necessarily fixing all the issues with the previous year’s game. Not saying this is a perfect system but at some point people need to upgrade if they want to move on. DTG really ought to put out a statement with a cut off date saying support for TSW, TSW2020, and TSW2 will cease thenceforth.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2023
  48. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    My advice is really only for people who wish to continue playing TSW and buying more content. If the plan is never to buy anything again and end your TSW journey with TSW2 then of course just keep waiting. If you wish to enjoy yourself now with a game that works instead of being frustrated with a broken game then following my advice will make you happier. Guaranteed. I’m not discussing the ethics of it or comparing it to bad food as it isn’t the point of the advice, it is merely there to help those people who may just need that extra push into buying TSW3 now instead of waiting to buy it later. Life is too short to be depriving yourself of enjoyment. The fixes to TSW2 will not be total fixes and TSW3 is already much better. You could be enjoying yourself right now. You don’t even need to discuss the advice with me, just take it or leave it.
     
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  49. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like you're walking it back a little, stujoy.
    But you still come across as an applicant for an Ambassadorship.
    And, is TSW3 that much better? Not for everyone, it would seem, judging by the forum.
    I think you're still full of the euphoria from the add-on manager. ;)
     
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  50. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    All I can say is, life is also too short to make a fool of yourself and hand in your hard earned money for underdelivering products.

    But your views sum up modern capitalism perfectly: just keep paying and you will be happy!

    Seriously, my man, you are being ripped off and are celebrating it, lol.
     
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