Niddertalbahn Is A Turning Point In Tsw

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by erg73, Mar 17, 2023.

  1. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    After today's stream, I think this route is going to be a turning point in TSW. For anyone who loves this game I think it has to make you reflect on everything we have seen today. Despite the loss of quality due to Youtube compression, I have to say I was very impressed and it exceeded all my expectations. I can't wait to enjoy it in 4K quality.

    It is definitely not always necessary to build a route of one hundred kilometers and hundreds of services so that those of us who love the railway can enjoy it.

    The first thing that comes to mind is that if I compare this to what DTG and other developers have been offering us so far, it's professional work vs. amateur work. It is a living world vs. a plastic world. It is genius vs mediocrity. It is the search for perfection vs. absolute conformism.

    I'm sorry if I'm being a bit harsh, but these are just my feelings I'm expressing here. I can't forget that this is TSG's first route in TSW, and I wonder how is it possible that they have been able to create this beauty while others, after an accumulated experience of dozens of routes and who have adapted a graphic engine to their own needs are not even able to come close to this.

    I'm not going to go into figures here. I know they are the most important thing, and I fully understand that a big company like DTG does not have the same possibility to spend the same amount of time on creating a route as a small company like TSG, and possibly cannot afford to focus so much on the details. But I find it very hard to see how they are not able to invest in looking for significant improvements when they are the parents of the child while others do. They have had moments of true genius, but how long has it been since they have surprised us? It's as if they have settled into a comfort zone and refuse to go the extra mile.

    How is it possible that they are still punishing us with that horrible draw distance and those aberrant shadows on the rails after five years and yet I haven't seen any of this today? Why didn't I see a single lighting failure in the tunnels today, while on other routes I see them constantly? Why is it that after 13 German routes I still see the same recycled assets over and over again and today everything looked new and fresh? Why in each preview I can detect multiple bugs and errors in a few minutes and today I was having a hard time finding any? Why are they not able to always implement something so important and characteristic of the railway world that we all love as the sound of steel against steel and today I kept hearing it? Why do I no longer feel any emotion or excitement with each new route and today I felt like a little boy who couldn't stop smiling?

    I would not like this to be interpreted as an attack on DTG. I have nothing against them, quite the contrary, I love you guys for creating this game. IMHO I think they could do more. I just wanted to express that I would also like them to reflect a bit, especially the people who make the decisions.

    I just want to thank everyone who has made this possible in one way or another. This care and attention to detail could only have been born in the brains of people who love trains.
     
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  2. simpman

    simpman Well-Known Member

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    This route has been in development since at least TSW3 was announced and highlights an issue with Dovetail where they will sometimes have super polished routes at launch and other times seem to rush it out despite glaring issues. There is no way to 'try' DLC on most platforms so we're stuck with relying on Dovetail being honest with previewing and the eager community finding and reporting major issues.

    Since this has been in the pipeline so long, they have had extra time to make it great and it shows. London Commuter could learn from this route.
     
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  3. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I think you are being a bit unkind to DTG, whilst TSG is head and shoulders above what we've seen previously. Maik doesnt have shareholders to answer to and his work is more passion than commercial.

    I recall him saying that the G6 would never have been a commercial success when you factor in the work involved getting it to the standard we see. I have little doubt the same could be said for Niddertalbahn. It was clear listening to Lukas and Ed that they share Maik's passion as well.

    I hope the community rewards them all by making this a full price day 1 purchase, because they deserve it. I certainly will be.
     
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  4. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    Of course, you're also rewarding DTG with your purchase, they must take a lion's share from each sale.
    Maybe TSG has PayPal or something? patreon? buymeacoffee?
     
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  5. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Please, don't. There is only the one way to sell a DLC, via DTGs retail process. Without DTG, their investment in creating TSW, and their help and contributions to the products we make, there would be no Niddertalbahn or any other 3rd party DLC at all.
     
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  6. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree. The quality and density of the foliage, the grass shoulders right next to a ballast shoulder that isn't three times as wide as it should be. The clutter and the detail. All of this has renewed my hope in TSW. Hopefully this isn't a one off.
     
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  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Probably because it took 18 months instead of just 6 to develop
     
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  8. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    And yet the price is the standard £29.99. Hmm.
     
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  9. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry it gave you that feeling. I really don't mean to attack them, I know perfectly well that without them none of this would be possible and I thank them for everything they have done to create a game I love.

    But I've also long felt that they've stagnated too much, that they don't invest enough either to improve the game or to fix long-standing bugs that we all know about, and today's preview only confirms to me that they could do much more than they do. If someone small like TSG in their first route is able to do it, DTG should be able to do it too after years of experience.

    For me personally from now on, when considering the purchase of a new route, it's going to be difficult to accept the level of dubious quality they are offering lately after enjoying this level of care and detail. I don't expect anything like the level of niddertalbahn, but I definitely think they should take a step forward if they want to keep their customers happy.
     
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  10. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I didn't mean to circumvent in any way the DLC sale.
    But, if a fan of your work would want to show their appreciation, is there any other channel available?
     
  11. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Active Member

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    As a really big fan of single track routes since TSC, I love the route. I'm impressed as everybody of the incredible amount of detail in the whole route.
    Not only they have time to work more but the route is shorter than most. I don't care about the lenght, it's more important to enjoy what I play and I can be sure this will be my favorite route (taking the RSN throne).
    This DLC will prove that we need more single track routes. Now I can't stop dreaming about TSC routes in TSW, legendary jewels like Bernina Pass (we already have trains for that route), West Highland Line or Munich to Garmisch-Panterkirchen would be an amazing addition to the game. There is even a lot of austrian single track routes that could use a lot of the already released german locos in TSW (IDK why DTG didn't look that way yet).
     
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  12. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect, I don't think that's a good enough reason. We cannot compare the size of the two companies and if DTG wanted to, it could do the same or more in 6 months than TSG could do in 18 months, because it has a lot more staff and resources. I have never heard DTG say anything similar because it would sound like a pretty lame excuse.

    I rather put it down to the fact that a small company simply has to make its work more or less profitable after expenses but is not accountable to anyone, as a company like DTG is accountable to its creditors. Many decisions are weighed down because they are made solely on the basis of financial results, and many of the decision-makers may care little or nothing about the trains. The need for higher financial returns to satisfy investors means that quantity is prioritised over quality.
     
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  13. coursetim

    coursetim Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a player who ventures outside of UK content but after watching the stream this honestly seems like a route worth £29.99 with the detail and care thats been put into it. Lukas and Ed were fantastic on stream and it was really good to see!
     
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  14. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I think that is exactly right. That's why I said somewhere else that it reminds me of Sand Patch, which DTG were able to take their time with.

    I think some people are getting a little carried away. Certainly it's a very well modeled route with lots of fine detail.

    But it's not the complexity of BML NYT or BPE, with a myriad of trackwork, interlocking and large station modeling. It's a shortish branch with mostly single track and smallish stations. And I didn't see any night driving, which is odd. That omission makes me a little nervous.

    I think TSG are to be congratulated on an admirable first route. But head and shoulders above everything else? Not really, just a very good first effort by a 3rd party.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2023
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  15. 5cip

    5cip Active Member

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    how long is that route ? cant find any infos only that its a short route
     
  16. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    They mentioned in the stream, it's around 30 km long.
     
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  17. 5cip

    5cip Active Member

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    alright thanks for that info
    route looks incredible no doubt and for the first add on for TSG in TSW respect
    so would this route benefit from a lot of shunting service due to the short route ?
    im really not a fan of short routes and thats why im stick with tsc where i have routes up to 300 km like norddeutschland for example ( a fan made project )
    but anyway i give this route a try cause im a railfan and its a TSG route

    cheers
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2023
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  18. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    So good looks like the answer is time and effort not rushing this directly. If rushed it will cause it to be the German Northeast Corridor Trenton New Brunswick New York Penn Station
     
  19. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely agree, just watched the preview stream. Looks stunning, perhaps the best looking TSW route - and really impressed by certain details such as the fields/trees changing through the different seasons. This certainly sets a benchmark for newer routes going forward, from both DTG and third-parties - although also important remember that this route is quite short and mostly single-branch, but impressive and quite frankly awesome to see nonetheless.
     
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  20. antony.henley

    antony.henley Well-Known Member

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    Not criticising you here but we all know what happens when there is a pause in dlc, for example if DTG slowed down their building of dlc routes or models so they look better upon release. There would by lynch mobs on the forum actively baying for blood and posting such comments in the like about the lack of dlc etc etc etc.You could probably compose a list of the members who would be posting such comments.

    I've only seen about 22 minutes of the stream, I will watch it in full hopefully later this morning. But looking forward to the route. For now I need to goto sleep. I'm supposed to be up at 5am..... (in 21 minutes time :( ☹)
    Long story will explain later today.

    Hentis
     
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  21. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I genuinely think this route first hand shows DTG has access to the talent to create an amazing route. I wasn't fussed by a one talracker but I'm
    Now tempted.

    I do not recall the last time I saw such detail. I think it was interesting as well they have advised about the ini settings killing fps on this route. That shows that they have gone to town on giving a great looking route.

    These guys did amazing work with Dresden too. I think this route showcases what tsw graphics should be without the "turn it and burn it" approach to dlc DTGS current accountants are pursuing
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2023
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  22. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with your overall sentiment, I would like to highlight that Lukas said most of the people working on Niddertalbahn are not financially dependent on how it works out. It was a work a work of passion, mostly. I’d love TSW routes to always be this level of quality but realistically speaking, I highly doubt that would be economically feasible.
     
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  23. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    I too naively hope this is a turning point but realistically I sincerely doubt it - Niddertalbahn is a labour of love from a small team that was able to spend a great deal more time on detail and perfection than DTG's own team will likely never be able to do. It's a shame because the latter has the talent and the will, it's just the "Okay time's up, that'll do, release it now and get on with the next" mentality of the upper echelons of management that handicaps their output quality.
     
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  24. praxidike.meng

    praxidike.meng Well-Known Member

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    Great remarks in the OP. I previously congratulated on various routes, but Niddertalbahn really sets a new standard. From scenery to rolling stock, everything is oozing of attention to detail and an intention to craft something the developers truly care about. Personally I was most impressed of the level of care with foliage placement and even the variety of it. It truly creates a feeling of place, the unique surroundings of this route. I wish this level of care would be present in other routes, but I can understand that the lenght of the route plays a significant factor in the ability to do this.

    I came with high expectations in yesterdays preview stream and I was still surprised by how good it all looked. Stunning work and effort.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2023
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  25. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    If TSW3 had the same sales as say Fifa then I am sure the economies of scale could see every route being of the standard of Niddertalbahn.
    But the sad fact is DTG have to remain profitable or we'd have no game at all.
    Hopefully this route sells by the bucket the route and the accountants wake up and see the fact that quality can increase sales and they allow the devs a little more budget per route.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2023
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  26. TKessel

    TKessel Well-Known Member

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    This release put me back in time to the year 2002, where a younger self bought "Die Siebziger entlang der Bigge" from Virtual Railroads as his first add-on for the MSTS. A historic and smaller route, I loved driving around with the VT95/98. Seems Niddertalbahn is giving me back this feeling.

    It is exactly what is said above, a small route, with a couple of stations, an interesting loco / railcar and beautiful landscape is all we need. TSG seems to have put a lot of love to this route, it will be a first second buy for sure. I really hope we will see more routes making it to this standard in the future. I also love the fact that the 365 does indeed have Indusi 60 :) Thank you so far TSG, now don't let me down ;-)
     
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  27. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I knew this would almost certainly be a day one purchase but having watched the stream it is definitely going to be so. I love the attention to detail, the way the towns and villages are laid out and the detail of the trains.

    Looks like a great job has been done by all.
     
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  28. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    And there I thought only the TSG Ludmilla could make me buy TSW3. I´ll have to reconsider, I guess. This route really looks spectacular, indeed.
    Well, TSG like ... no surprise. Congratulations, well done!
     
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  29. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Watching the stream now.

    The route does look very nice, but (I don’t know if it’s the stream), there was a lot of LOD pop-in/adjustment close to player. I was constantly seeing trees changing colour as shadows were being added. Same with other foliage such as bushes and wheat etc.

    I also noticed a lot of micro-pauses and the lighting still isn’t great in the tunnels - I noticed it took a while for the dashboard to go fully dark once the train was in the tunnel. Rather than go totally black instantly, it sort of dimmed over a second or two.

    It’s unlikely to be a Day 1 purchase for me. I need to see more before I commit as it seems a little too WSR for me, which is nice for an odd run every now and then, but not something that would keep me interested for long.
     
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  30. olly.smail

    olly.smail Well-Known Member

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    this is why i’m looking forward to Alan Thomson Simulations first route. i have high hopes for them but for anything dtg i don’t expect much anymore which is unfortunate
     
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  31. pessitheghost

    pessitheghost Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully we get UK DLC as polished as that
     
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  32. west coastway trains

    west coastway trains Well-Known Member

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    Tsg have set the bar for tsw routes extremely high here, and the next few dlcs will either live up to that expectation, or send tsw spiralling backwards again
     
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  33. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Let’s not use TSG’s content as a stick to beat DTG with as the two are made under considerably different constraints. Let’s just enjoy the quality of TSG’s work as just that, TSG’s work. It can’t change the quality of DTG’s routes to the extent anyone would like it to. TSG will tell you themselves that it would be impossible for DTG to create this standard of route.

    They could get closer if they were to make a single track route this short for the same selling price but they wouldn’t be getting praise for doing so from many players. There would be calls for it to be half the price. This is quite pricey for what you get compared to some of DTG’s offerings.
     
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  34. phil.elliott

    phil.elliott Well-Known Member

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    I've sadly come to the conclusion that Nidderthalbahn simply can't be a day one purchase for me.










    But only because I'll be travelling that day... I will buy it as soon as I can on Friday!!!!"
     
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  35. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    I think you have misunderstood. It's not about beating DTG. It's not the good guys against the bad guys. We are all in the same boat here and we all want the best for the TSW franchise.

    It's about not falling into conformity, neither on the part of the company nor on the part of the players. There is always room for improvement and no, it is not impossible to do better and to make the routes and add-ons better. Many of us feel that the last few releases have not been up to the task and could have been done much better.

    I'm not asking for something like what we saw yesterday on an 80km route, that might be economically unfeasible but until someone from DTG comes here and tells us that it's not possible for them to do better, I will keep asking them to raise their quality standard and telling them that they can't keep offering us the same thing over and over again, accompanied by the same bugs and glitches from years ago. If a company does not innovate and devote resources to improving a product, sooner or later that product will die, and that is something nobody wants here.
     
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  36. phil.elliott

    phil.elliott Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a good conversation. On the one hand, let's be clear that there's no reality to the suggestion that DTG aren't trying hard to deliver the best possible experience. Regardless of whether it's the business strategy defining budgets, or other factors in play, DTG is trying to provide what gamers/sim players want.

    The disconnect is between what DTG can currently provide, and what a passionate and vocal section of the community expects. Based on forum discussions, it's not really possible to tell where the line is between "acceptable" for commercial success, and "perfection" for critical acclaim all round.

    Any games business with a long-term plan will want to get as close to "perfection" as judged all round as possible. So why don't companies always deliver this? Well, it's about resource. In the end, a line has to be drawn - because a DLC could take any amount of time to complete, depending on where that line is.

    For DTG, as a big team, while there are more people to deliver the content, there is a much higher risk in terms of monthly burn rate. I can tell you that 100% guarantee most DLCs have not/will not release "on time" according to the schedule - because despite what some folks may think, DTG is very mindful of the state of the content at release.

    At some point somebody higher up has to make a decision about whether or not something is ready for release (and, as I've mentioned before, coralling this across multiple platforms is very resource-heavy). So the argument is whether or not that decision is being made at the right time, or not. Discussions on the forums would come in on either side, but I think most would recognise that while perfection is an asymptotic concept, there is room for improvement generally.

    This is where we've been at for most of the TSW journey, with DTG trying to balance "big picture" upgrades (such as weather, TOD4, skies, etc) and ongoing delivery of DLC... as well as grappling with long-term key issues that have taken a long time to idenfity and fix (save game, AI SPADs, steam realism, etc).

    BUT - until now, most DLC has been roughly on a par in terms of release state. Some better, some worse. Some patched effectively, some not. The desire for "better" has not diminished... but now NeedleBarn (stream joke) actually shows everybody (DTG included) that it's possible to put clear water between what we've seen generally, and what's possible.

    So, the question for DTG is really: will the NID commercial performance justify that "release decision point" to be taken differently in order to move the needle overall? As somebody generally happy with how DLCs released, and I've said plenty of times that I have no in-depth knowledge of railways to know most of the time that something's not right (although obvious asset issues and missing textures even I can spot!) - even I'm now looking back at other routes I've been very happy with and wondering "what if?"

    In the end only DTG (and other second parties) can decide what it means for the future.
     
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  37. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I’m not misunderstanding it, I just know what is going to happen on the forum now that people have something better to compare everything to, without taking any wider context into consideration. It’s much harder for DTG to spare what might seem like a small amount of time to improve certain aspects of the tech and anything that makes the subsequent route development more time consuming is definitely out. The higher quality product takes longer to develop. That’s what is going to missed with every comparison that follows. The improvements that DTG could make should not be compared to what TSG have done but only to what DTG do themselves but we know that won’t happen.

    You did it yourself whilst just expressing your feelings…
    DTG’s work has been reduced to amateur plastic mediocre conformism after one TSG release. It is this that we need to avoid.
     
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  38. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    If there are people who want to work on UK or US routes as passion projects, and who are getting their financial support from other means, I am sure DTG would be interested in them being 2nd/3rd party developers as long as they have some experience in developing these kind of pieces of software. There is no reason why it is only TSG that are in this position, but I bet you none of the named 3rd parties currently work on this basis either.

    This is a work of art, but it isn't going to make the artist rich. Or even pay their bills.
     
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  39. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    It's fine to have an emotional response to something you're really touched by. But that response should be tempered by the facts.

    Looked at as a short, single track branch line with limited traffic and few if any interchanges, it looks like a marvel of scenic and loco modeling.

    As I've said elsewhere, DTG have equalled this kind of quality when given enough time, notably with SPG and other early routes, which newer players may have forgotten or not be aware of.

    Whether, with the current business plan, DTG can reclaim that quality consistently is the real point here. Actually the time and budget constraints that they work within affect timetables and gameplay more than artistry and modeling, which they are very good at on the whole.
     
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  40. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    I think we all understand DTG has limits on what can be achieved in one route. However, what most of us are unhappy about is the polish that should be given in the last couple of weeks before a release is not being done and blatantly obvious bugs are making it through to release day.
     
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  41. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I was really excited to see the presentation last night xD. It's been a while since I've watched anything related to TSW with awe, as lately it all seems like more of the same, with too much recycling on DTG's part.
    And at the time I found it hard to understand how a company could come up with something like this in what is their first foray into TSW routes. Well, in fact I still don't understand it, although looking at TSG's track record I can understand that their philosophy goes beyond the merely economic, seeking excellence in their work whenever possible.

    And yes, whether we like it or not, or whether they are more or less unfair, comparisons will always exist. We all have our own criteria and opinions and none of them has to be better than the other. Nor do customers have enough knowledge of the inner workings of companies to make a correct assessment. Someone may say that it is impossible for DTG to reach a quality level like that of TSG because it is economically unviable and another will say the opposite and we cannot really know who is right because we do not know the economic situation of either company, nor how they operate or distribute their economic resources.

    I am not the one who invented DTG's reputation. When I first met them I was surprised by the amount of negative comments that this company had and in fact several years later I think it is not entirely fair. Nobody can deny what they have contributed to the virtual simulation of the railway world. But after several years, if there is one thing that is clear to me, it is that it is not a company that seeks excellence in its DNA, and I don't think it did, even if money was not a problem. And it's a shame, because there are very talented people working there who do an incredible job but who sometimes can't show their full potential.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2023
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  42. owenroser19

    owenroser19 Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don’t see this being a turning point, the quality of DTG DLC is not going to change. However with more and more of these third party’s getting on board, I think there is definitely hope for TSW now.

    I see this going the same way TSC has, DTG release the minimum which will be of ‘ok’ quality, and others come along and make it great with loco dlc etc.

    This is why I think it’s now or never for TSW, if these third parties like TSG, Alanthomsonsim, Just Trains and more (I think we can rule out Rivet sadly) can produce quality material like this then TSW will be well on its way. And I don’t mind waiting several months between releases if they are going to be of this quality.
     
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  43. Quentin

    Quentin Well-Known Member

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    They mentioned in the stream that, because there's so much detailed foliage, changing the default LOD parameters (as I and many other PC users do, using engine.ini) will place a huge strain on your GPU.

    It isn't their first rodeo, they've been working with DTG developing TSW models and routes for quite a while.
     

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  44. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I believe that the main reason why we've got a glut of routes being released in March is because some (maybe most) have ran over schedule and there's pressure from the top to get them out before the end of financial year (the tax year runs 1/4 - 31/3 here in the UK and many businesses mirror this in their financial year, I am assume DTG are one such business).
     
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  45. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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  46. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    If true, then it leaves me wondering how they can have routes run over schedule and still release as buggy and unfinished as NYT and Left Rhine...
     
  47. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    All about the accountants
     
  48. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    Nice comments and lots of praise. Considering that the recently released US content was received rather negatively. The new vegetation assets or foliage textures also make a big difference, in addition to many small details from a bygone railway epoch. So a more pleasant, natural look is created, compared to what we are already used to in TSW. Would be great if future routes would also benefit from this.
     
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