Train Sim World 3 Problem With Pride Dlc - And A Suggestion To Improve It.

Let me be clear:
I wholeheartedly support anything that demonstrates goodwill for the LGBT community both within and outside of the game. This is an unalloyed good and I'm certain this is appreciated by the players.
Thank you Dovetail.


However:
It was recently pointed out to me by an LGBT friend after the sale of the ICE3 Railbow that the manner in which this was released could be problematic. After talking, it became clearer that Dovetail have kind of profited from the goodwill of players who want to show their support and/or allyship.

By putting these products behind a paywall, players like my friend and I feel that our desire to show support for the LGBT community has been hindered.


The Proposal:
We are asking Dovetail to publicly commit to donating a portion of the
profits earned from the sales of Pride-themed DLC to charity.

I understand like anyone else that the devs need to eat too, so I would not ask for all money earned to be given away (only a percentage) and only on products that include a focus on Pride.

I suggest a 20% donation.

My friend suggested Stonewall and The Trevor Project as two prominent charities that could be recipients of this but I welcome ideas from other players below.
I am sure any charity would be very grateful for this support.


Benefits for everyone:
I hope I am not alone when I say that if Dovetail commits to donating at least this much,
I would purchase all Pride-themed DLC day 1. I would enjoy not just the product in-game but the positive impact of my purchase as well.
I suspect more players would buy these if they knew some of their money was going to a genuinely good cause - and more purchases means more revenue overall for the devs.

In the meantime, I am working on an alternative ICE3 Railbow that will be uploaded to the creator's club to give players a choice. This will have accurate logos etc but isn't a substitute for my suggestion. I will potentially post in the thread again with a link if I have the spare time to complete it soon.

Edit: SEHS is not problematic. The focus of the DLC is not Pride. It was just a fun added bonus. My post does not concern any current product other than the Railbow ICE3. I tagged SEHS since it was a good way to do things.

And finally, because I apparently annoyed some people: If you don't like it, if you think I'm offending your politics, there's no need to be angry, it's just a suggestion. I have changed the thread to remove accusatory language, I never wanted to suggest deliberate wrongdoing on the part of Dovetail.
Thank you to those that liked my idea, it's nice to know others would appreciate this gesture.

I hope this idea brings a beneficial change to the game and I wish everyone a happy easter

 

you make a great point

 

They charged for a reskin, which happens to be a pride livery. That's as deep as it goes.

It's incredibly unlikely someone suggested at DTG: "how about we capitalise on the LGBT Community?"

 

Well no, it's more like something they didn't give any deeper thought to than "this will probably sell".

 

Its a good point, do agree 100% but one thing prevents this from happening: Capatalism.

 

Or, look at it contextually:

"We need something for the German (Kassel) side of this bundle"
"Reskin the ICEs?"
"Sure... But what liveries could they wear that we haven't already made yet?"
"Well, the ICE1 has the Green Band livery"
"Sure, we could do that"
"The ICE3 has the EU livery, the Pride Livery..."
"That's it! We'll make the pride livery. It'll fit in with others like the Trainbow on SEHS, and the players will like it, or should anyway."

That's how I would see the conversation having went, thinking logically.

 

Why does politics always have be brought in for a train sim. It's only a livery, that's it. There's no political motivation behind it. If the paid railbow livery is offensive to you, then how come you aren't offended by the 395 pride livery that was behind a paid sehs route. How about future routes that includes a pride livery. While you make some good points, your argument that dtg is exploiting pride is sort of absurd.

 

It is a fair point, but the SEHS Trainbow was an addition as part of the route, not payed on its own.
But I agree that the arguement that Pride/LGBT is being exploited.

 

Welp, gonna grab some popcorn and watch this one play out.

 

It's a product representing a real-life livery, it's no different from any other paid liveries released for the game. Should they donate a portion of the profits from the BNSF SD70ACe to BNSF as well?

Why we need to bring politics into a train simulator I'll never know. Saying DTG is exploiting the pride community for not donating to them is a massive palm to the face, not everything revolves around the LGBTQ.

 

If politics really was a problem, I would expect players to also complain about the climate green livery on the ice locomotives.

 

Tbh I imagine that lost people are oblivious to the fact it's a climate thing (either haven't looked into it, or don't understand the German text on the side of it), and just know it as a green stripe.

The rainbow is now a universal symbol of LGBTQ+

 

They do, one way or another that's accounted for in the licensing deals with the various rail operators.

 

Keyword: Donate

Another example instead, should DTG have to donate to climate change organizations for the green stripe ICE1 and ICE3 to avoid getting “cancelled”?

 

Not sure how you got from "It'd be a nice gesture of sincerity to do this" to "cancelling", that seems like a reach.

 

It's a livery at the end of the day.
It's no different to them charging for the BNSF one or anything else.

It's no big deal, and they shouldn't donate money from their product to a charity just because someone (wrongly) thinks their group is being exploited.

 

Cancelling comes from OP’s post claiming DTG are exploiting the LGBT community (their words, not mine) - which is a ridiculous accusation and falls under cancel culture in my honest opinion.

 

This.

DTG will have already paid licensing fees to the relevant parties to even feature this livery in their game. Nobody has any right to demand that DTG donate their profits to charity quite frankly, that's for the company to decide. It's not like they don't either, they recently did a charity weekend stream for Special Effect, a great cause that I would say is a lot more relevant to a games developer.

It's just a livery being featured in a game at the end of the day, nothing more.

 

Okay, so that seems to fall under the broad definition of "cancel culture is any opinion I personally don't like".

 

Well, that's what Cancel Culture is.

 

As a gay man who plays TSW 3, the fact a pride livery is behind a paywall didn’t/doesn’t bother me. I’m comfortable with DTG wanting to and needing to make a profit. It is a business after all and not a charity.

My absolute bug bear is that DTG is charging us more (which again is fine), but offering less (which is not reasonable).

Quality is definitely going downhill since the early days of TSW and the number of fixes needed to the game continues to grow significantly with each release. I would much prefer that DTG refocuses on what is vitally important (quality) and gets its house in order. I’ll keep beating this drum until I’m blue in the face or until DTG finally listens.

 

Everyone took this way too far lmao. All the original suggestion was, was an idea from my friend to make her feel better and maybe get some value for a very expensive reskin. Never accused DTG of being bad people or plotting against anyone. Reading the thread really makes me wish I hadn't bothered since apparently everyone got themselves in a twist.

 

I never suggested any deliberate wrongdoing, plotting or planning of any kind. It was literally just a suggestion for a nice gesture on their part. I even thanked them in my post lol.

 

I didn't ever say any of the liveries were offensive, so please don't get angry and "political". I never said they intended to annoy, irritate or otherwise rip off or negatively impact anyone. It shouldn't be offensive to anyone. The SEHS livery is great, since they included it for free. I even acknowledged that they can't always release free reskins like that.

 

Going to post one proper reply - thank you to the people that actually supported the basic sentiment of my post, without getting into conspiracies about how I apparently think the devs are plotting to screw everyone. I appreciate it. Kinda bummed that so much argument came from asking for one nice thing, I assumed posting on the forums for the first time wouldn't be such a sh*tshow but I guess you can't win them all.

The fact that they made a Pride livery in the first place shows their positive stance - all I hoped for was that it was a little meaningful. None of this has to be political.

For the love of god (you know who you are) - no one is *demanding* anything of Dovetail. No one is wanting them to be cancelled. I never suggest that they're bad people or that they deserve the things some people have degenerated into in this thread.

Maybe I should've realised that some people can't read a (imo) polite suggestion for an idea without descending into politics and arguing over the definition of cancel culture. To the person who suggested that they already have a good cause - why can't they have more than one?

People work hard for their money. Is it really that controversial to suggest that the premium we pay helps a good cause, at least a little?
Thanks for the likes, good to know there are people who would appreciate this.

 

I’m confused now, there’s no argument here from what I can see?

I just don’t agree that DTG should have to make a donation, they’ve likely paid DB a fee to use that livery in the game, plus dev time went into making the scenarios included with it. They’re right to charge for it.

The SEHS livery was on a single member of the 395 class and there’s no extra gameplay related to it either, it’s just a nice bonus.

 

One guy got so angry, does make me smile sometimes. I suggest one nice thing on a thread designed for suggestions and the world comes crashing down on them.

I've never seen so many words put in my mouth If they really can't see any difference between a random BNSF livery and Railbow artwork then I hope one day they will. If you read this, please, please learn to chill lol, this reads like a Daily Mail article.

 

I never made an argument in anger lol but you'd never know it reading some of these responses. I even said, yes, I understand why they charge for it - they need the money too. It was just a suggestion for a gesture of solidarity with the community. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Is that not literally what the reskin does?

The moment that LGBT is mentioned, politics is involved.

Also, not everyone would strictly agree it's a good cause.

The title of the thread previously said "exploiting" in regards to the LGBT community. Sets an impression.

Also, general reply to your replies;
Nobody is arguing, and you (I imagine unintentionally, as you have good intentions at heart it seems) give off the impression of a "anyone who disagrees is bad" mentality.

 

I mean, putting the word "exploit" into the title and your post gives off a negative vibe that makes the thread seem more negative that you intended it to be.

 

Sorry if I seemed accusatory, I changed the thread name because it sounded too angry previously. I just tried to do something nice, even if people got annoyed, at least I could make my friend happy.
Unfortunately some people just took it the wrong way. I understand it's political, but one could hope for a world where it isn't. If people don't agree with the politics, that's their right. Doesn't have to stir up controversy though.

 

Yeah I realised that, so I made a change. Thanks for pointing it out though.

 

... hmmm. Why pride? We're all humans. We're enjoying trains, who you are and who you're sleeping with is just not of interest. And putting on labels is more exclusive than inclusive. You're not more special than straight people.

 

This is really nice idea. As a member of the LBGTQ community, knowing that some of the money I spend of a pride themed livery goes to LGBTQ charities would mean a lot.

(fyi) by Dovetail making a Pride themed livery they are inherently making a political statement. It's a flag and movement which is directly tied to politics and if they intended to sell items which use the imagery of said movement and community then a small donation would be a NICE gesture.

 

Nobody got annoyed.

Let me fix that for you;

"However, some people have their own opinions."

That would be delusional.

No one stirred up controversy. Although, it could be argued the original thread title did more to that end than any replies, or the OP.

 

Is it not a "nice gesture" by including it in the first place?

 

Yes it is a nice gesture to include it however by selling it as an expensive livery, it could be argued that it's making money off a community which historically and currently is being treated poorly. It is not much to ask that a tiny faction of the profits supports the community, that dovetail is claiming to support by making this design.

 

Ok this gets a little tiring. By all means, have your opinions, but some comments put some rather hurtful words in my mouth. I admitted the thread title could be better and so I changed it.
People getting annoyed is, yet again, an opinion. One person called it absurd, one person made the suggestion that I somehow said LGBT people deserved special treatment, so you know it kinda sounds like they were annoyed. Despite what you say, some people *did* take this the wrong way - I never asked players to give their own money or pushed an agenda - it's one idea, to make a small impact that might help some people. Yes, the inclusion of a Pride livery is already a nice gesture, but again - why can't there be more than one nice thing? To anyone else, if you don't like my idea, you don't have to bother responding, I know I've used enough energy and I get it. It's not for everyone. Tried my best to moderate my language. If my suggestion makes one person happy, I'm happy.

 

Ok I can't play diplomacy here any longer.

You make some good points. But, let's be clear. Dovetail have chosen to release this as a payed add-on, which is well within their rights.

In order to make such an add-on, they will have had to (probably) adjust their license with DB, which costs money.

On top of that, staff have to be payed.

Suggesting that 20% go to charities that represent only a small minority of the population is ridiculous. The Community ask for representation, they get it, and are not happy. That's as simple as it is.
It is dovetails product, they have no obligation to, nor does it make sense for them to, give it to charities as a "goodwill" gesture. The LGBT Community has had a lot of representation (395 Trainbow, the DB Railbow, Mastery Tiles, etc) in the game, which is actually quite good for a Simulator, all things considered. Creators Club has a plethora of Pride Liveries as well.

The suggestion and response to criticism here has been questionable. Stonewall in particular, for a "charity", seem to care more about politics than helping LGBT People. And even at that, they'll get cozy up with big companies when it suits them. (Big companies are the opposite of modern leftism.)

The Trevor Project is American, DTG are British, the DLC is German. Doesn't really add up.

On to the response to criticism point.
Nobody in this thread has argued. Everyone has been civil - even I have in this post.
Nobody took this the wrong way. They disagreed with you. That's all that happened. If you think that's taking things the wrong way, for goodness sake don't go into politics.
Your initial thread title set-up backlash because it was quite misleading - intentionally or not.

Also;

The suggestion was absurd. DTG made a product, and they keep the money (after expenses) - it hardly sells at a high price, so most pennies are prisoners in this case.

This post also, inherently, gives off the LGBT deserve special treatment impression, regardless of how it's worded. If everyone had equal treatment, then should DTG donate 20% of income to Climate Groups for the feature of the DB Green Stripe ICE livery?
Should they donate 20% to impoverished areas featured in the game, to help those struggling?

No, they shouldn't. It is a ridiculous thing to even suggest. And it's no different for the LGBT. All it is, at the end of the day, is a livery pack with a Rainbow Stripe on one train, and a green stripe on the other. That's the bottom line of it all.

 

Yes it would be nice if people put some money to LGBTQ+ charities, which they can do irrespective of whether they enjoy trains or not.
The same goes for any kind of charity people wish to donate to (I have a regular donation set up to a charity, kind of bypasses the reliance on the desires of others to do so)

The rest of this is likely to descend into a debate about issues rather than liveries...

 

Never said they had an obligation, never used that word. Just made a suggestion. If you don't need the last word, please enjoy the rest of your evening knowing your comment has been taken on board. I would never make anyone support a cause they don't agree with.

 

Just adding to my point, didn't say you did use it.

 

I honestly think the livery should've been free. There was a ice railbow in the creators club but was taken down. There are mods of this livery that can be had for free for PC users. I don't see why DTG had to charge for this. Charging for the ice 1 green stripe was also a joke frankly

 

DB do not allow ICE liveries to be shared on Creators Club.

It's 2-in-1, not two seperate DLCs.

 

trainsgender issue... indeed.

 

This thread really went nowhere

 

I know that. I still think it should've been free

 

Why does it always feel like a déjà vu thing when it comes to colors and rainbows in the forums

 

it’s improving at least, their once was a whole rather angry multi page thread on the container wagons for Sherman hill, now theirs half a dlc dedicated to a similar livery type and it ain’t so vicious.

edit: contributing to the thread, as the OP suggested, I think it would have been needed to have been done from the start if it’s what DTG wanted to do from it, it does draw complications on that most companies that release similar products tend to aim/achieve high profits from sales before doing so (Apple Red/exclusive LEGO sets etc)

high sales numbers from these train addon packs I don’t think is quite their (just my view from it, I haven’t seen internal statistics of course)

their is of course been quite a market backlash on products similar to this that don’t donate when releasing this kind of content (all the companies that change the logo’s in June that some would say seem to do nothing but gesture rather than achieve anything), I expect that kind of backlash may rise further in the future.

my personal issue with the 2 livery’s is economical, in that I don’t think £2.50 each (unable to purchase separate) is quite fair and rather a steep pricing point.

 

I don’t see any problem with the structure really. Dovetail are only adding something to the base TSW3 game that represents a real unit in service and are only replicating the variety that can be seen on the real railway. If people want it for free they can spend time creating the livery for their own use in game - they just can’t distribute it. DTG have obviously have an agreement with DB to allow this and the reliveried Ice1 unit to be added. Regarding the £2.50 price point, (or half of the DB pack of 2 units for £4.99) I think it’s very reasonable, 2 reliveried units that add variety to at least one route for around the cost of a pint! it’s even more reasonable if you buy the whole pack for £11.99. I do appreciate that young people don’t always have the funds to buy this stuff but that’s always been the case and it will never change.

Regarding donating to charity, DTG are showing support to the community by adding these liveries in game. DTG probably pay for a license to be able to produce this content for us train fans and in turn DB I’d hope have donated to charity as part of their pride promotion on the real units.