PC Midland Mainline Tsc + Tsw3 Comparison Images

That’s a brave thing to say in public…

 

I had to google that (rather tentatively), it is a new one on me

 

That really comes down to developers, and whether they put the time and the love in. Back on the TSC side, DTG's own routes are considered at best middle of the pack (Virtual Trains/TSG among the best, so the excellence of their TSW work is no surprise). And so this conversation really boils down to getting the best 3d parties aboard the TSW train. TSG great, Rivet not so much, Skyhook I think improving with each release. We have yet to see what JT and ATS bring to the table.

 

Very fair, although I do think DTG have made some really nice routes, eventually. They often need 2 or 3 patches, normally after community outcry, but they do tend to get there.

 

bart2day. Thank you for the images. Those comparisons are pretty spot on with the real life view. Just Trains have just shaded it imho, but it’s very close to call. Well done to both developers, excellent work.

 

The TSC version might be cheaper, but how much other payware do you need to own? Thats a genuine question as I honestly dont know the answer.

The constant need to own (and have installed) numerous dependencies (and the lack of a timetable) is the the main reason I moved over to TSW3. I was fed up of paying for a route and having to buy numerous payware just to get it right and avoid floating assets etc etc.

Then even when you owned everything you needed, you'd get a half dozen scenarios thrown in and then have to hunt down additional scenarios to keep the game fresh, and then you'd discover you'd need yet more dependencies installed.

Theres a big reason why we have to accept generic assets in TSW3, because otherwise file sizes would be enormous. Whether thats down to UE4 I dont know, but we are where we are. Look at Niddertalbahn, its a short route but the file size is the 2nd largest I own.

I enjoyed both TSC & TSW but now I'm limited to laptop because of the above I play TSW only.

 

It’s an interesting discussion. Looking at the images, if I pick almost any criterion, the TSC version looks better - yet I prefer the overall feel of the TSW version. I don’t know why - it just looks as if it could be real, where the TSC version does not. Probably something to do with textures, lighting, or some such thing of which I have no understanding!

Ultimately, the quality of graphics is close enough that I choose which simulator to play on other criteria - which means I normally play TSW because of its timetable mode - but recognising that this is a thread about graphics, I won’t go further into that here.

 

I play both games and each has its strengths.

I'm mostly in the same boat.

TSW is much more immersive to me due to the first-person perspective. I can never shake the feeling in TSC that i'm just playing with a model trainset (not as bad as Trainz, but still)

I also much prefer the lighting in TSW3 (but not 2 or 1)- it's personal preference but i'd much prefer it being a bit too bright than the inkiness of TSC.

Finally i just don't want to deal with the hassle of finding/creating scenarios.

Give me timetable mode all day, every day.

I will say something like the quick drive feature from TSC would be welcome in TSW though.

Like many i still dabble with TSC for content that isn't available in TSW (yet).

Niddertalbahn is being (rightly) held up as an ideal of what can be created in TSW, but TSG probably spent a year solid working on it- that's just never going to be feasible for DTG.

So, i hope you all bought that one- its craftsmanship should certainly be rewarded.

More 3rd party development can only be a good thing, so I've preordered MML. I'm also a sucker for routes with more than 2 termini lol!

 

A very relevant point. After it was mentioned earlier, my finger was poised over JT South Western Expressways. However on a hunch as no included stock mentioned on the Steam store page I did some digging and it appears you need to own a raft of third party stock assets that don't come with the route and not just from JT either, to run the Standard Scenarios supplied with the route. No thank you. Already been there with the Met Line and having to buy the S7+1 stock seperately.

 

Remember that even in TSW3 you have to either buy other routes and/or locos for added layers

 

Not entirely. As with all JT routes they duplicate the included scenarios, one set using third party payware (read AP) and the other using stock contained within the Euro Loco and Asset pack.

Should you wish you need no further payware at all to run it.

 

Yes but when you buy a route in TSW it comes with the required locos for the timetables and scenarios. The layers are a bonus and non essential for the scenarios and services, though they are very nice bonuses to get if you happen to own that loco.

 

Not according to their own manual https://downloads.justtrains.net/support/manuals/South Western Expressways Reading manual.pdf

Seems out of the 19 included scenarios, 11 require additional payware & just 8 use the default included assets.

To enjoy all 19 scenarios you require the following



Thats a sizeable investment whichever way you look at it.

Do agree TSW3 is becoming more and more like this, with the ROG, Railhead Treatment and WC Steam packs becoming almost mandatory in order to enjoy the full fruits of recent UK routes. I really hope this pattern doesnt continue unabated.

 

The annoying part with TSC’s third party scene is having to search the far reaches of the internet for items that may or may no longer be available. If everything were sold through Steam like TSW, it would make things much easier to find.

I understand why third parties don’t always do that though, why put content on Steam when you can cash in 100% of the profit of your hard work by selling on your own site? It’s a no brainer really.

Just Trains including a few scenarios that work standalone is a decent move. I wish AP were more like that but instead they update their requirements on previously released scenarios so if you’re not interested in one of their new packs, there’s a chance you’ll get locked out of your previously purchased content unless you bodge it with F2 when the error message comes up on load, this just leaves a bit of a sour taste.

If I buy the Class 37 packs, I should only require those Class 37 packs and whatever route they’re based on to run the scenarios in that pack. If they want to make scenarios that use multiple pieces of AP stock, they should be sold separately from their DLC packs in my opinion.

This isn’t an attack on AP either, their content is top quality. It’s just an area I think they could improve upon.

I wouldn’t say TSW is becoming remotely like that though. If you buy a new route DLC in TSW, you can always be sure that the route will work as a standalone piece of content. No extra bits needed. Loco DLC only requires whatever route that loco is focused on for its timetable or services.

The timetable layers that a piece of content may unlock on other routes are a bonus for players who purchase multiple DLC and build their collection up. They’re not an entitlement and the route’s timetable will still work regardless of whether the bonus layers are there or not. The layers shouldn’t really be included in this context.

 

Im gonna buy it at some big sale in far future not less, currently only BR612 (DCZ) and Class 101 give me some joy in the tsw3 routes (BTW I don't belive DTG is able to deliver more joyfull train ride than BR612 and 101, ever)

 

Indeed. That is a massive shopping list by any measure and before anyone suggests swapping things around with RW Tools, that is also a huge task. As regards TSW MML it looks as if to run the steam rail tour you need the Rivet WCL add on pack, will not run off the original SoS assets.

 

Undoubtedly that is where TSW wins for the average user, ease of use. TSC is definitely harder to get into, and to get ‘quality’ is expensive but the end result is, on balance, better than TSW in my opinion. I absolutely concede it’s not for everyone though, many people want to simply pick up their console controller and drive a train for half an hour with all the assists and screen drivel that TSW can throw at them. Fair enough.

Again though, this thread is about route building, re-use of generic assets and a lack of attention to detail. Nothing I’ve written above excuses that.

To reiterate my point, we have been told repeatedly that TSW routes were shorter than TSC because to build routes to the detail level required took much longer than it did in TSC. The point I’m doing my very best to make is that that is no longer the case for the majority of the time. Players are now paying more for shorter routes, except the level of detail and amount of care that has gone into the vast majority of them is simply nowhere near good enough.

I’ve demonstrated very clearly indeed that MML is another in this vain, and that the route is not only well below TSC in terms of it’s building, but it also falls glaringly short of other TSW routes. They still ask you to pay £30 for it.

It sticks in my craw when on the streams there’s this mutual back slapping about how great everything is (‘nothing to see here’) when it’s demonstrably not the case.

 

If thats the case then its really got my goat if Im frank. I suppose the justification is that the original SoS Jubilee doesnt have AWS, but when safety systems is optional in the game anyway it doesnt wash with me.

 

This is why I still haven’t bought BCC. I have made an exception for MML primarily because I want the 158 for other routes, but to all intents yes it is a bludy expensive stock pack. Peak Forest will be another one and from what I’ve read so far DTG are quite unrepentant about not going to Derby. Now that is where TSC does shine for me - steam traction. With my Bossman collection pretty much complete (just the light Bulleids to grab) and so many long and challenging routes to operate on (and with a catering car in the formation) Peak Forest will have to work very hard to get my £30.

 

I might be wrong, but I’m pretty certain one of the reasons BCC was relatively detailed was because many of the assets had already been created for the TSC version. This is why Skyhook doing MML just baffles me. Just Trains have all the assets already built whereas SkyHook seem to have only bothered with the stations. Virtually everything else is generic. For £30 I expect a lot more than that.

 

Agreed, if that’s the case it’s very annoying. The SoS Jubilee has a realistic formation, suitable for a railtour. The Rivet version has a 5-coach formation completely unsuitable and unrealistic for a railtour. Whether or not there is AWS on the loco is a small matter compared to having a realistic load, as this is fundamental to the performance of the loco.

If - having paid for SoS - we’re forced (if we want the full experience) to put more money into Rivet’s pocket in order to get an inferior experience than would be available with the SoS formation we’ve paid for, that’s pretty poor.

 

This is what keeps my interest in TSC and DTG's steam efforts so far in TSW including the new upcoming route are doing nothing to change that.

Steam traction in TSC is phenomenal. Not only with BMG but SSS, Victory Works, Caledonian works and Matrix trains. Then you have all the wonderful freeware routes some the likes of Golden Age, the Wycombe Route and the Recreating Britains Lost Routes Facebook pages, plus there are more. There is so much variety out there. This is something TSW doesn't get close to replicating and I doubt ever will.

 

Well I stand to be corrected on the steam rail tours in MML but that’s what I took away from the Steam pre order page, you need the Railtour pack. Maybe someone from DTG can confirm?

 

Substitution would be nice, if you could sub the rivet version into the rail tour if you had it that but otherwise use the SOS jubilee that would be nice?

As I'm assuming you do need WCL for that layer to be active and you can't just buy the steam railtour pack?

 

This is outrageous imo. That DLC has absolutely no reason to exist and it was blatantly just made to make a quick buck. The fact that i cant do the Class 37 railtours on EtG either even though i have the exact same coaches from Spirit of Steam. Its such a ripoff.

And they had the cheek to make an excuse like this!

 

I get why Rivet would insist on using their packs on their routes and it makes sense.

What I dont get is why SHG are insisting you use Rivets version of the Jubilee instead of DTG's when theres nothing to be gain for them in terms of sales.

 

I don't think their reasoning is outrageous. Steam engines on modern railtours are required to have safety systems there for it is realistic. It would be good to have the SOS ones available in lieu of the Rivet ones. Personally I won't purchase the Rivet games add-on as five coaches on a steam railtour is not realistic, it will have to be heavily discounted for me to get it but I understand their reasoning.

As said above though, why a Rivet product and not a DTG product is required for the Skyhook route is another matter, and I don't get why that is stipulated apart from the fact it does add extra value if you have bought the RIvet pack I suppose.

 

To try and bring this thread kicking and screaming back on topic I've redone the TSC shots to match exactly their TSW counterparts. Same day of the year, same departure time and weather as close as I can replicate it. Please remember that TSC is a DX9 game so elements of it will not look as modern as TSW, particularly the reflections although in fairness the sun is in the correct part of the Sky (setting the West) in the TSC scenario so the sun reflection is on the other side of loco. That will change soon all being well with TSC's continued and potential development to DX12, but again this isn't the point of the thread.

The intention is to compare the quality of the route building. The assets, the lineside clutter, railway structure, attention to detail etc. Nearly 6 years in to the TSW journey in my opinion this SkyHook effort just isn't good enough, particularly at £30.

Finally, I moan and complain incessantly about the lighting in TSW. In my opinion one set of shots looks pretty close to ~20:00 on July 13th in the UK, and the other is far far too dark for that time at that time of year. What can also be determined from that preview stream is that the world lighting on the SkyHook MML is not being done by ambient light (yet) again but on time of day. Why can't DTG sort out this issues around Quality Control and consistency?

 

I have actually just reinstalled TSC because I wanted to drive realistic steam trains again and TSW just isn't up to scratch in this regard at the current time.

TSC definitely shows its age in some respects but the news about core updates is very interesting, if they can crack multi threading etc. there will be a lot more life left in TSC than I had assumed when TSW came out.

On the comments regarding linesides in TSW being inexplicably bare compared to TSC, I couldn't agree more, it's like they've got a rule about placing as little as possible close to the track. Too many routes just don't look quite finished, I'm not sure whether this is a time thing or a performance concern for old consoles.

 

That's really unnecessarily condescending.

 

Oh come on. That’s really unnecessarily missing the point.

Stop being so touchy and finding offence on behalf of other people where neither intention nor offence actually exist.

 

Words like "drivel" are inherently offensive and strongly imply intention.

 

Is it snowing in here? I’m not responsible for what you do or do not find offensive.

How about contributing something worthwhile instead of pseudo-moderating?

 

If your condescending remarks cause readers to 'miss the point', perhaps you shouldn't write them in the first place. Your message, whatever you intend it to be, is buried under a thick layer of bitterness.

I can see why others in this thread are 'missing your point'. It seems to be invisible, or at least unrecognisable to the naked eye, for I can't find any constructive angle to this comment whatsoever.

Cheers

 

That’s absolutely fine, nobody is saying that you have to. There was no constructive angle intended.

Funny how it’s always the same 4 or 5 people who like to go around different threads telling others what they can or can’t write, what opinion they may or may not have, or taking offence on other people’s behalf in the most tangential way whilst generally contributing very little of actual substance themselves. It gets a bit tedious after a while frankly.

 

Yes, that is abundantly clear.

Cheers

 

Good.

Cheers.

 

Imo it's not unreasonable. You get a modified/retrofitted Jubilee, a new livery, services for West Cornwall Local, Edinburgh - Glasgow, and Midland Mainline - as well as WCL 37 Railtours on Edinburgh - Glasgow.

You only have to buy it once, and you'll keep getting more and more out of it. Same as the RHTT, same as the ROG 37... Don't see much complaints about those?

 

The ROG 37 has serious quality issues. Non working AA and blurring of upclose cab elements like wipers, nose and window frames, and the independently moving window frame which just looks horrible and can only be fixed by turning off cab sway.

Apparently an issue with having the wrong parent nodes defined in the model.

But hey, DTG are new to the train sim business, let's forgive them. Running out of time

 

Because those are actually their own thing and nothing like them existed before, we've had railtours using stock from other routes for years now, so what was wrong with that???

 

The 37 has been reused twice prior to the ROG DLC.
The 66 has been the sole UK, Modern freight train, included in three routes, plus the RHTT DLC.

So, to unlock those services, you need to buy the modified version of the train.
It is exactly the same as what's happening with WCL's Steam DLC.

 

After reading, I decided to buy TSC.

 

We get it, your expectation is a 1 to 1 100% true replication with modern graphics and lighting, but you want this for £20.00.

For you TSC preferred, whilst for others we can forgive generic assets being used for a more immersive experience with a 24hr timetable and no need to own a top spec PC and spend hours crawling around for scenarios so prefer TSW.

Neither is perfect both have their pros and cons.

But there's no need to verbally attack people just for having a different opinion to yours.

Would I love a TSW3 experience with the attention of detail which goes into some (certainly not all) TSC route filled with custom assets? Yes yes a million times yes. But do I expect to see it a the price point either products are sold at? No

 

What ARE you talking about? Who have I 'verbally attacked'? This is getting beyond ridiculous.

I don't expect a 100% photo real depiction of a route. I have said why so many times in this thread I'm not going to do so again.

 

I think the early sunset is because TSW does not take summer time into account, whereas TSC does (can be specified in the RouteProperties.xml).

 

Somehow I can't edit my above post, was talking about Daylight Saving Time.

 

I think ever since those spam attacks if you make an edit to a post that the filter deems to be too short and therefore likely spam, the system won't let you do it.

That's interesting though, so BST can be specified in the properties of a TSC route? I didn't realise that.

 

It's easy to paint any picture you want when you quote things entirely out of context isn't it?