Honestly, this game needs some competition (SimRail apparently is pretty good but it doesnt have any UK routes afaik) in order for Dovetail/developers to make better content because this release may be the shoddiest ive seen from this game. First of all, it is too short. London to Brighton I think should be the expected route length for a £30 product. Second of all, the stations are the worst Ive seen from this game - they just seem lazy/unfinished. There are also apprently glaring bigs and glitches with the 158 (i.e. not being able to get into the cab). What I find most astonishing is how Dovetail hypes it all up when they surely know there are glaring issues with it. And to sell it at £30 is an insult when you can get a triple-a game for the same price. I am not in the minority with this opinion either - the steam reviews for this dlc are 'mostly negative'. To be honest, I do wonder what Skyhook have been doing all this time because this route was announced a while ago now so theyve clearly been working on it for months. It is just laziness on their behalf or are they on a strict deadline? I hope its the latter but i feel doubtful that they were considering how much time theyve had. Seriously, DTG and SHG need to up their game.
I honestly feel the same way as you do. The length for me is the biggest selling point, and not extending it to Sheffield is a crime. If you’re featuring the HST and it’s bombing down the line over 100mph, then the route is over in no time. We’ll take a look at the service completion times (under 30 minutes). It definitely feels a step backwards after the gorgeous two German routes we got recently. This route just feels a bit bland, as Gordon Ramsey would say ha. It’s definitely going to need some more time in the over with future updates if it’s going to entice me to buy it. I’ll probably pick it up when it drops between £15-£20, no way is it worth £30.
I dont really have an issue with it looking bland IF thats what it looks like in real life (but you can argue then though that they shouldve pook a more interesting setting). With the price, I think us, the consumers, are to blame partially because if everyone refused to buy it and just pirated it (im not approving piracy btw before i get banned lol), they would have to bring the price down.
Yeah I agree on the bland part, but still for me it’s got to captivate me. Needs that special something to draw me in. This route doesn’t do it for me unfortunately. I could look past that though if the route had the length, which it doesn’t. Plenty of other people will buy it and enjoy it, and I say good luck to them. I’m just not going to pay the £30 price tag. What’s the next UK route in the pipe line?
Yeah, there’s just way too many bugs and issues with this release to justify that price tag. It’s also tiring to hear the “we ran out of time” excuse from DTG being overused constantly now. Clearly the deadlines are set way too tight if every single release has this excuse said for it. Edit: Gotta say, the forum post from Jane from Skyhook is great communication, best we’ve had in a while. Really hope that continues moving forward.
And this is why I've stopped buying any type of DLC on release there's just too many bugs and glitches in it and if I'm buying a DLC on release then I want it to at least function with minimal bugs if possible sure there's going to be some but like rain on the windscreen safety systems all this stuff should be working I mean it's fairly basic and it should be caught in testing like this is getting a little much
Yep. You would think after the wcml south backlash in 2020 (because that route was even worse than this on release) that it would be a turning point, but it appears nothing has changed.
Well I guess now all we can hope is that looks like they're going to be under new ownership which hopefully means that the new owners will care a little bit more about quality than the previous ones but we will see
I actually am rather enjoying the mml. I think you and many others are being too harsh and scaring those who like it into silence!!!
Nope. Based on the overwhelming majority of reviews on steam, many people share the same sentiment. Those who take the line in real life express that much of the scenery you'd see in real life near the line is missing in game.
Have you considered the fact that generally people who are happy with something don’t leave reviews! If you go to a butchers and buy gorgeous joint you are less likely to leave a review than of it was a manky old joint aren’t you!!! It is a solid route and definitely is recognisable as the mml!!!
There's no evidence for what you are stating. If it was true, there'd be no "Mostly / Overwhelmingly Positive" reviewed DLC. Accept the fact that most people expect more from the leading developer in Train Simulation than what you consider to be a solid route. Which it is clearly not, and that has been proven.
If they’re anything like console reviews I find them hard to judge, the amount of times I’ve had a look and someone has put 5 stars and the comment to go with it is along the lines of “how do I drive the train”… (Best dlc ever as they’ve never used it…) I don’t really trust the store reviews from them experiences.
That’s an Xbox issue, doesn’t take a genius to look at those reviews and see they’re written by children most the time, so yeah I generally ignore those. I won’t simply not buy something based on reviews, but worse ratings do make me look more at something than I would if they were positive. People dying on hills for DTG would have you believe that everyone is out to get them, but looking through steam you can clearly see the good routes and bad routes based on ratings. For MML all I’d say is compare the trackwork, lineside and scenic detail to BCC. They’re worlds apart and it’s not acceptable that we take such hits in quality - let alone the bugs on top of it.
Well that’s your opinion and mine is that is a solid route!!! It is not clearly not solid and I have enjoyed playing it since release!!! It’s not perfect but I’ve come to learn over the past few years and months that nothing is perfect so why would I expect this to be!!! It has been made clear by skyhooks lovely Jane that they are committed to making it as near to perfect as possible!!! What else do you want???
If you enjoy it, good for you. But the standards you have are not acceptable for the vast majority who want quality for the buck - like I do. All the issues and bugs have been documented here.
I predicted it would be the worst route to come to tsw to date, and unfortunately it appears I may have been right. Definitely won’t be buying from skyhook anytime soon if at all
Actually there's plenty of studies and research on the subject and its generally acknowledged that 1 in 4 dissatisfied customers will leave a negative review but only 1 in 10 satisfied customers will leave a positive review. That said currently MML seems to be below acceptable standards in its current state, something that SHG have accepted and held their hands up to. Hopefully SHG will follow through on their words and make the improvements need.
Yep, Agreed, I very rarely leave positive reviews, unless the service is beyond the realms of high by a considerable length. I'm much more likely to leave a bad review, if I think it's justified.
I don't buy add-ons from DTG anymore. You just don't know what you get and if issues will ever get fixed. Even the content TSW3 released with still has issues and they just don't seem to care. It doesn't seem like they pour any kind of effort in post-release support. I hope this mindset changes with the abysmal release of MML. I went back to TSW2 routes lately and find their quality of detail far superior to TSW3 routes. Otherwise I'll be playing TSC with add-ons from christrains. Same with FSX (where DTG was also the developer) where third-party add-ons (I freaking loved the PMDG 737) are just way better than what you get in the base game.
The big problem is that Steam doesn’t allow neutral or percentage ratings. You have to declare whether it is good or bad with no in between. You can do either with a caveat in your essay but it doesn’t change the influence of the headline rating.
Technically DTG were only distributing FSX after making some changes for Steam compatibility. The code base remains what the flight sim division of MS developed before they were disbanded in the mid to late 00’s.
I am enjoying it too, which doesn't seem to be popular opinion round here at the moment. Some people seem to forget that their view is an opinion not fact. It certainly has issues, but I am sure there have been worse releases than this, and they are generally minor issues, I would say Glasgow to Edinburgh was worse than this on release. Skyhook to do seem to be committed to fixing it too. I wonder what percentage of total steam sales are the negative reviews on steam?
this has fast become one of my favourites routes tbh, I play in full dolby digital and the trains sound amazing tbh, the hst certainly sounds far better than tge MTU versioned GWR unit, adding the 158 to the game is a genius idea frankly because there's so many routes that can be built around it, its also a very true to life and clever implementation of the driveline aswell. However, there is one or two stupid bugs but nothing that has put me off really enjoying this route and jane-skyhook has committed to getting issues fixed in future updates and we have to take that at face value for now.
I’m glad i’m not the only one thinking this. All I’d really seen was praise for this route and I was bit confused, because again I think it’s incredibly sub par. As I’ve said before, it’s suffering from the typical Train Sim World holdbacks. And it kind of frustrates me that so many are saying this is good quality, because it’s just not. I haven’t got the DLC myself so I can’t speak from personal experience but of the videos and pictures I’ve seen, it doesn’t seem good quality. And unfortunately, so long as there is that group of people that are happy with this, us people that want proper simulation get left in the dirt. I’m not saying you aren’t allowed to enjoy the game, but I think some people need to try and recognise the issues that we are having with Train Sim World in its current state. Like you have said, I’m getting incredibly fed up with the excuses but there’s absolutely nothing we can do.I know it’s not the developers at fault, it’s the upper management putting unrealistic time schedules in place. But ultimately if people are still buying, DTG or whomever is making the DLC is winning. I was really excited about the third party program when it was first announced, but we’ve seen that both Rivet and Skyhook are just as incapable as DTG in giving us what we want. And there’s just not going to be enough other developers to give us regular good quality content I don’t think. Look at Train Sim Classic, the only reason that is still going strong is because it has a public editor and anyone can make stuff for it. So there’s thousands upon thousands of content pieces available. But we don’t have that in Train Sim World, and I’m scared we never will. The only way anything would ever change is if the entire player base collectively stopped buying DLC of this quality, but that’s just not going to happen. I think Train Sim World will forever be the game targeted at causal players, because that’s clearly where most of the money is. If you want anything more, you’re going to have to invest in Train Simulator Classic. Which by the way, is not ‘dead’ or ‘outdated’, ‘old’ or whatever people want to say about it. It’s superior to Train Sim World in many ways and has a huge player base and as I mentioned, tons of content available.
Yes i agree, there needs to be a public map editor that has the same abilities as TSC, or some sort of TSC to TSW map transfer tool (but I presume such a tool would take ages to develop (if it's even possible) and wouldn't make sense finanically). I do however refute your claim that TSC is not outdated. The game engine is old and not made for modern systems. The graphics and UI is also poor by modern standards (but i think theyre updating the ui which is nice). a lot of the early routes made for it are also lackluster by today's standards.
Wouldn't be able to publish to consoles, so 2/3 of players wouldn't be able to use anything generated on it DTG are publishing core updates for TSC to bring it up to modern standards game core and game engine wise, so rather than DX9 and Visual Studio dinosaur, will be up to DX12 and VS2023 standard Well of course, but conversely a lot of the new stuff is up to spec and sometimes better than TSW standard, and of course you can tweak any setting you like, make any scenario you like and if you have the ability, make trains, routes etc to your heart's content It's just a shame the ecosystem is reliant on dozens of asset locations and requisite lists longer than my arms
Steam reviews are not a yardstick of anything in all honesty. Place is full of trolls hiding in their bedrooms. I've played a few scenarios and have quite enjoyed it, but then I'm a glass half full kind of guy. Patches should remedy bugs, though there is nothing remotely game braking in there. Perhaps go out for a happy meal? Why buy it quickly if you have a beef with Skyhook?
So then how do you explain a product getting mostly positive reviews like the Niddertalbahn? Don't you think that perhaps people who write reviews aren't trolls or people just trying to be negative all the time? I've read the reviews for MML and they seem like honest opinions with detailed explanations for the most part. If you like it then that's fine but negative reviews shouldn't be dismissed because you may not like what you read and people who put an honest review about something shouldn't be called a troll if they don't recommend a product
I’m Afraid I have to disagree. With things like AP weather enhancement, TSC can still look incredible. Yes the base stuff from DTG isn’t good but there are plenty of things that can make it look better. And the finer details we’ve seen from third parties (like line side clutter, train functionality) far out-ways anything we have in TSW right now.
So those who own the route and are enjoying it, their opinions should be disregarded as incorrect by those who don't own the route but "know" that is is rubbish. It isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I am enjoying it so far. And I am very well aware of the issues around TSW but I still manage to enjoy the content.
I'm not saying MML is perfect, but it's nowhere near as bad as people are making out and doesn't deserve mostly negative reviews on Steam. The Niddertabahn I don't have, but it's just a simplistic route like West Somerset Railway isn't it? Glasgow to Edinburgh got a similar reaction but with patches has become much better, give them a chance to patch MML... Try watching YouTubers talking about MML and then compare it with the steam reviews - it's like they're talking about a different route. Sure it's buggy but mostly minor stuff that can be patched hopefully. Looks and sounds nice. Is it worth the price? Probably not, but then this is an expensive niche market. Besides have yo seen the cost of setting up a real model railway! This is cheap by comparison.
I really want to like MML, but just compare how it looks to real life, and even the just trains version on TSC. Lots of simple things that should be there aren’t. The whole stretch from Derby to Spondon is way off. Embankment missing, stadium missing. Much of the clutter and some of the typical station signs seem to be missing. Bridges that are completely in the wrong shape and being short enough that trains clip through them. I do understand that they are working on several patches, and I am looking forward to them. I’m sure eventually it will become a great product but it’s not atm. You can enjoy the route AND acknowledge that it is severely lacking in quality control. Have a look at the list of issues on the other thread in this very same forum. Those come from people who most definitely have played this route so you cannot dismiss them.
Niddertalbahn though has a very high quality of route-building and makes you actually feel like you are driving through a real place. The attention to detail is outstanding. MML seems to have had no attention to detail on the route building side; there is no detail! They shouldn't need to patch it. It's been acknowledged by beta testers on this forum that Skyhook was aware the route had issues but decided to release anyway. This release first, patch later should not be a regular occurrence but it is. Patches should be for minor things, not to fix game breaking bugs or overhaul scenery. Would you knowingly buy a broken microwave from a company if you were told you could bring it back in a couple of months and they'll fix it? No, you'd want it working straight away. But with TSW this release first, fix later happens with almost every release. Not re-education, but you need to understand that other people will have a higher standard of expectation than you do. A route that 'looks ok to me' from someone who has little or no knowledge of the route in real life (I'm not saying that's you by the way, just generally) is not really good enough. It should be a functioning, accurate representation of its real-life counterpart. That's what a simulation is. 100%. I cannot believe that nobody noticed these things in testing. I almost think the route beyond reprieve to be honest, such is the lack of care and attention. I can't see Skyhook overhauling it to the extent required but I'll happily be proved wrong. Maybe they can pull a rabbit out of the hat.
Again, you shouldn't be dismissing criticism of a route just because you enjoy it. There are legitimate criticisms of this route here in the forums and elsewhere about the issues of the route. Skyhook was aware of the issues with the route and decided to release it anyway. That shouldn't be happening. A patch should be for minor stuff and not to fix game breaking issues and scenery issues. There are those that are tired of the "release now, fix later if ever" that keeps happening with these dlc's and at this price point, that shouldn't be happening. Would you buy a broken tv that didn't work but you were told that they would fix it 5 months later? I'm pretty sure you would expect it to work properly the first time. Also given skyhook's reputation with the 187 and some of their other products, I'm doubtful it will get all the fixes it needs but I hope to be proven wrong The Nidertalbahn is a very detailed route and from what I've seen feels like your on a railway. The MML by skyhook in comparison lacks detail in many areas. The TSC version of the route looks better in my view detail wise. TSW is not advertised as a arcade game. DTG keep saying that the goal is to make/publish routes and trains that are realistic as possible and thus set the expectations for themselves and their third parties. Nobody is expecting 100% realism here but if they are not making routes that doesn't resemble the real life counterpart, then they are gonna get called out for it as they should. It can't nor should be "it looks ok to me so the route shouldn't be poorly received." If DLC's are gonna keep releasing with many issues as if the product is rushed, then DTG and their partners will be called out for it. You have to understand that people's expectations are higher than yours. You seem to be the type that has a low expectation for a product that releases and there is nothing wrong with that. If you enjoy the product, that is fine, but understand that people have different expectations then you. Just because a youtuber that praises a route who probably wouldn't know anything about this route (or ny to trenton which was a route that was also poorly received but there were youtubers who acted like everything was fine with that route) or if you like this route or whoever enjoys this route doesn't mean that rightful criticism or mostly negative reviews should just be dismissed because it doesn't share your views. You can enjoy the route but you shouldn't dismiss mostly warranted criticism. The people who are more critical are the ones that want to see TSW be better and not to just constantly hate on it.
SKYHOOK still owes me a proper AC4400CW and fixing CK and HSC... till then no purchase their products.
But it's okay to dismiss the views of those that enjoy it by marking us as some kind of simple gamers who have low standards! I can fully see where TSW needs to improve and I am critical but you can still enjoy a product and express that whilst noting where things need improving. However there are a coterie of users on here who seem determined to undermine the views of others including being told you're wrong. If I knew the MML intimately I would be irritated by the incorrect bridges and things but I don't so I can't be. But driving the two trains on the route has been an immersive and enjoyable experience so far despite the bugs which do need fixing. My main complaint which I have aired is that it is too short and the timetable is inadequate. It's still a nice route though But obviously I'm just a simp fanbois whose view should be ignored!
Just a point on what you’ve written here. If you extrapolate your reasoning, you’re suggesting that because very very few of us at all are intimately acquainted with any of these routes from the perspective of the train driver, that it’s ok for developers to put out any old rubbish as long as the track is the same and it has the same stations. I can’t help but disagree with that standpoint. I can see where enjoyment could be found in the DLC, particularly if you’ve never played the Just Trains version, but that doesn’t excuse the myriad of problems with it. I’m absolutely aware that you’ve given constructive criticism on it and have every right to enjoy it nonetheless. Anyway, yesterday I bought MML, played it for an hour or so and refunded it. Although I had no real intention of keeping it I was certainly very much open to doing so had I found enough there to warrant it, sadly that wasn’t the case. The reason I did this is that I very strongly believe that if I’m going to criticise something then I should at least have experienced it for myself to give it a fair crack of the whip. Nothing I saw changed my initial impressions from gameplay videos however. My opinion having now played it; - The rolling stock are the best part of the DLC by some margin. They both look great but undoubtedly have issues, more so than is apparent from gameplay videos. To name a few, the sounds are ok but not on a par with their AP Enhanced TSC counterparts, particularly the HST. The 158 is better but there are definite issues with the way the engine powers up. Where the 158 behaves differently to the AP version but may well be more realistic, there are problems with the physics on the HST (I’m comparing them to the AP version and I absolutely trust that they have it correct). They lack basic features - working Vultron destination display and GSM-R being two and the destination display on the 158 is just completely incorrect. As always, the cabs of both units are far too bright and aren’t acted upon by external lighting in a realistic way. They don’t go dark when you pass under a bridge. I’d give the HST 6/10 by virtue of the physics, sounds & missing GSM-R and the 158 7.5/10, marked down for the missing features, the external destination display and the transition sounds as the engine powers up. With a bit more work however they both can be really very good additions to the game. - The station models are pretty good but they are missing many details and feel dead and lifeless. Would it really have killed to have added the East Midlands Parkway signage to the station exterior? It is visible from the cab as you approach the station after all. The second best feature after the rolling stock but much room for improvement. - There are significant LOD issues, both with pop-in but also with iconic landmarks. Even on PC Ultra settings the cooling towers at East Mids Parkway look like badly put together half-finished clay models until you are almost right on top of them. That’s if you can see them of course, because for such a large structure they should be visible from much further away than they are - Timetable. Nothing more to say on this one - The environmental lighting is terrible. BCC levels of terrible. The stations etc are not lighting up based on ambient light but on time of day, something we have been told would no longer be the case. On a positive note I’d say the eye adaption is probably the best I’ve seen in TSW3. That could be placebo and it may just be that there are virtually no tunnels. At least the signal visibility is much more realistic. - Finally, my big bugbear that I just can’t overlook. The route building is every bit as bad I’ve said it was previously. It really is a barren wasteland. On the JT version, driving from Nottingham to Leicester, you feel like you are leaving and arriving into major cities. In-between you are very clearly powering through the East Midlands on a UK railway. Not so in TSW, I arrived into Leicester not actually realising I was there. There is no clutter, no lineside foliage, the ballast is overly reflective whilst not marrying together seamlessly and is completely the wrong colour. Compared to the Just Trains version the distant scenery is really very poor indeed. Where there are bridges and buildings etc 90% of them are really obviously recycled from older TSW routes (like the warehouse/mill from NTP which is totally out of place here) and very little to nothing is custom modelled for this route. Level crossings don’t appear to work (basic!) and the whole thing is just feels very rushed, generic and lacklustre. Overall, if I were to mark this specific part of the JT route as a much deserved 9/10, I’d have to give this no more than 5. It is only that high because of the rolling stock, were I marking the route building itself I’d struggle to give it anymore than 1 or 2 out of 10. As a barometer for UK content in TSW, I would personally mark the route building on GWE (as the only other HST / DMU route) as it stands now as a good 7.5/10.
Of course there are things wrong with it, I was never alluding to it being perfect. But I don't think it's as bad as some make out that's all. I'm entitled to my personal opinion. It seems some people spend more time moaning about it than actually playing the route.
Ah yes, prove my point by using 2 cult classics and the one game that bethesda managed not to ruin in the last 10 years .
To be fair, there are enough games out there where the reviews are overwhelmingly positive. Hardly indicative of people only ever leaving negative feedback. It’s rare to see a game or DLC get absolutely panned in the reviews unless there is genuinely something wrong with it. Remember ‘The Bus’ is an early access UE4 sim with an editor.
What a silly response. I hardly think Bloons TD6 or People Playground are cult classics. Just because you like Midland Main Line doesn't prove your point, I'm struggling to believe you're not being sarcastic. People leave reviews if they want to, the amount of games with positive reviews (which is most of them) so demonstrably disproves your point that it's funny.
