Midland Mainline - Skyhook Feedback

Personally I hope the priorities are the timetable and also the signalling, if Skyhook fix these then it’s going to be such a wonderful route!

Despite some of the issues, I’ve haven’t stopped playing the route since Tuesday!

 

a few views from the actual route here

Long Eaton. Note the HST stop mark. Also of course the buffer fitted HST wouldn’t have been too difficult to add to the route. It’s an MTU so sounds already exist in the original GWR one.
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2018/Bedford-to-East-Midlands--05-06-/i-3kwZwHB/A

Attenborough. London side, from the foot crossing.
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2014/Yorkshire-Nottinghamshire-01/i-D6tRQjR/A

Attenborough. Between the station and foot crossing.
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2014/Yorkshire-Nottinghamshire-01/i-g4tftQn/A

Beeston
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2018/Retford-to-St-Pancras/i-CfCr9Cc/A

Nottingham
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2018/Retford-to-St-Pancras/i-sfmSRmV/A

East Midlands Parkway
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2019/Nottingham-Leeds-08-03-2019/i-JLrTskW/A
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2019/Nottingham-Leeds-08-03-2019/i-kQztXd2/A

Loughborough
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2019/Nottingham-Leeds-08-03-2019/i-Hnfdnbn/A

Spondon
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2016/Midlands-29-01-2016/i-jf9nKmz
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2016/Midlands-29-01-2016/i-rxWQ7TJ

Leicester
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2019/East-Midlands-05-03-2019/i-5LgzPbg
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2019/East-Midlands-05-03-2019/i-z5PtHtm
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2014/Yorkshire-Nottinghamshire-01/i-pthpkDL

Derby Etches Park
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2002/Midland-Main-Line-in-2002/i-mbwKRH3
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2018/Bedford-to-East-Midlands--05-06-/i-VWPZvWr

Derby (not been since the resignalling)
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2018/Bedford-to-East-Midlands--05-06-/i-d3TJz2R
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2016/Midlands-29-01-2016/i-tD2LWhG
https://tonysrailphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/2018/Retford-to-St-Pancras/i-4D3Prgn

I have various others so if Jane or anyone from Skyhook wants to see more just let me know and I’ll see what I can do.

 

If these were put in I’m sure londonmidland wouldn’t hesitate in modding the correct signage in to reflect the actual stores.

 

I’d be more than happy to replace any existing fictional signage with real world signage

 

The 158 wipers don't do anything useful, they animate but don't clear rain off the windscreen! That scenario with bad weather, can't see anything, have to run with heads out view!

 

TPWS interventions

Just a tip for those encountering TPWS issues being tripped despite no overspeed.

The one near Mountsorrel on the down fast (towards Derby/Nottingham) seems to be trip trains going over 100mph, despite line speed dropping from 120 - 110 before. I was doing 95-100 to test it and had no issues.

Outside Nottingham, regulate your speed under 25mph and you shouldn’t trip the grids!

These are the only ones I’ve encountered from playing 12 different services so far.

 

I would say that the least you should do is temporarily reduce the price for this bug ridden mess until the major bugs have been fixed. Continuing to charge the full premium price for this new DLC, which by your own admission needs serious work and was hyped big time by Dovetail, is a money grabbing insult to your customer base.

 

Except the price is set by the publisher, i.e. DTG, so it's unfair to dig into Jane from Skyhook on the price, and so this request is misdirected.

 

Sorry to cause confusion to anyone but the TPWS bug seems to be service dependant, I tried 1D55 twice at 100mph and again at 90mph and got tripped by TPWS at Mountsorrel!

Nevermind, eh?!

 

I tried the one outside Nottingham twice, first time I tripped the AWS as I was just above 25 mph even though the 25mph board was a few hundred metres away!

Seconds time I slowed to 25mph a good distance before the signal/speed limit, got closer to the signal then a hard crash...

Seems buggy and connected. Had a hard crash outside Leicester on the AWS grid there.

 

How did this route get released in such poor horrible terrible shocking mindbendingly unfinished condition?

I know most routes release with technical issues but this routes ridiculously bad even by DTG low standards.

Did someone decide to skip ALL testing and release this thing as is?
Did DTG really need to release this because i'm sure FOCUS ENTERTAINMENT was truly in awww.!

 

I don't know if to post it here but I'm going to anyway. The ambient sounds only operate at stations and I would assumingly expect some sort of sound on the line in between?

 

Great video to compare the route to reality (2) Landore Street to Barrow Hill via Derby - YouTube

 

None of this is really feedback, is it?

 

There's no exhaust from the rear power car. or any from the 158.

 

I was seriously considering getting this route but after reading about all the issues,i find spending full price on this dlc totally unjustified,heck spending anything on this is unwarranted.Yea this is still sorta feedback because if those who purchased it find this many issues then those who read it about may not get it or want it.Your products suffers double because of the flaws that where allowed to get out.

 

The only route I'm going to buy, so far, and even then in a sale, is Niddertalbahn. High quality is everything.

 

TSG did a great job the time and effort really shine thru.His route should be the standard all else try to live up to.Was it perfect no but it's so close not many would notice or care because it's far above every other effort before and after it.Truly one of the very few worth full price.

 

Tsg is more than 1 person. Some dtg employees helped as well

 

So under his leadership he was able to extract the best effort possible from them.To bad DTG doesn't do the same with there dlc's.

 

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but...

How do you set a destination on the 158? There are instructions and codes in the cab, but no-where to enter them that I can find.

 

You can't, it's set automatically

 

Can anyone get a HST service into Leicester?. I get a hard crash around 5 miles out every single time. PS5.

 

Niddertalbahn is well worth £30. Absolute quality everywhere.

 

Good things:
- I think the scenery on the route generally gives a realistic feel, even if there are areas which others have indicated aren't exactly like the actual locations (which doesn't especially bother me as I don't know the route well enough to notice).
- Good use of weathering on some of the scenery, adding to the feeling of realism.
- A lot of work has obviously gone into the 158. The physics and the sound are particularly good.
- Likewise, I think the conversion work on the HST is good, and appreciate that community feedback has been listened to in enabling the cab doors to be open when the train is in motion.

Things which need improvement:
- Multiple TPWS Overspeed Sensors set up with incorrect trigger speeds, causing TPWS activations at speeds at which they should not occur.
- Lots of incorrect signal aspects (route indicators, position lights, double greens etc) as highlighted elsewhere.
- AWS magnets on bi-directional track operate the AWS in both directions, rather than just the direction for which they're intended.
- AWS magnets which are not related to any signal or speed restriction in either direction.
- Signal missing an AWS magnet altogether (after Beeston on the Down).
- Mis-matches between the speed shown on the HUD and the speed shown on the permanent speed restriction signs (where they exist at all)
- Lots of trains are missing from the timetable which could perfectly reasonably be included. Everything scheduled to be a sprinter/170 could reasonably be represented by the 158, as they're used quite interchangeably in real life. Everything scheduled to be a 222 could reasonably be represented by the HST, as they frequently deputise in real life. There's also plenty of opportunity for freight missed. With these missing trains added, the route would feel much busier and be more interesting to drive.

At the moment, I don't find the route playable because the operational (signalling, TPWS, AWS, speed restrictions) issues are so severe that working around them really removes any enjoyment or sense of realism. I haven't refunded because I want to support a route with older diesels, and have a feeling if its sales are poor we'll get told in the future that only modern EMU routes sell so that's what will be made. Also, I appreciate Jane's approach to engaging with the community and it makes me hopeful the issues will be addressed and I'll be able to enjoy the route in the future. It certainly has potential if the operational issues can be fixed.

 

I am on series S and all of the services I have done to Leicester so far have worked. What does seem to cause problems for me is the TPWS activation 6 or so miles north of Leicester but the service can still be got into Leicester without a crash.

 

This is a problem now. People are going to expect Niddertahlbahn level of detail on every route no matter what. The only reason TSG were able to make that route that detailed without horrendous pop-in was because the fastest you can go is 60kmh. MML is far from perfect, but the level of detail is fine, better than most tbf. Don't expect NDbahn detail on routes with speeds higher than 120kmh

 

I've only had 2 crashes on ps5. One going into Nottingham and one into Leicester. I've done multiple services into Leicester using a HST

 

What's wrong with expecting the best effort possible.You sound like we should be greatfull for whatever DTG decides is good enough and be content with the status quo.Take for example a railroad crossing with lights gates and bells but it randomly doesn't always work,leaving you with no warning of a approaching trains,maybe you'll get hit maybe you won't(Should we accept that to).We know nothing pefect but that doesn't mean we have to like it.and that we don't want to see things done better when possible,not done so so everytime.

 

If you look at route building on niddertalbahn and for dtg and other 3rd parties to create dlc identical to it, it would take too long. It took the TSG devs and some dtg employees and 2nd party members over a year to model everything for 19 miles of track. Everything from the individual stalks of wheat, blades of grass, every single tree in the forest, other custom made environmental assets from houses to stations. Imagine doing it for 50 miles of a route or even close to 60-70 miles. That is very time consuming. Dtg can't survive off of 1-2 dlc each year.

In terms of bugs, it can't be bug free.

 

You are absolutely right but since they don't have time to do this.Then what's there excuse for not putting max effort into the main reason people buy there product the trains.That's what the players most want.Trains that work.Because when they don't it makes players look for what else is wrong.

 

Hi Jane,

Thanks for stopping by. Would you mind taking a look at the BR 187 and the prototypical implementation of the LZB in that cab? That DLC is still not fixed and leaves a very bad impression of your game studios.

Thanks.

 

That's not what I'm saying. I'm explaining that the faster the speed of the trains are, the faster the assets have to load in. It's easier to hide pop in when you're travelling slower. If they made SEHS with the level of detail in NDbahn, the pop in will be so bad, it would be extremely distracting.

Dovetail, Rivet and Co all do need to do better, especially on PC, PS5 and SX, but unless you want massive pop in, you're never going to get the same level of detail in a route with faster traversal.

Now the things they do put in that don't work, they're bugs and it's frustrating that they don't test the DLCS. MML does feel like it was released a few weeks too soon. If you can check my comments since in joined, you'll see I'm not a shill. I just understand limitations.

 

Can I ask a genuine question as a layman? How come Just Trains were able to build a much more detailed, accurate and realistic looking route for a simulator with a much smaller market than TSW (no consoles) and sell it for 2/3rds of the price (albeit as part of a wider network)? That route included many custom assets made specifically for the MML. If your route looked like a TSW version of their TSC product you would be here getting nothing but praise, bugs aside.

I posted this in another thread but figure it’s worth repeating here;

Yesterday I bought MML, played it for an hour or so and refunded it. Although I had no real intention of keeping it I was certainly very much open to doing so had I found enough there to warrant it, sadly that wasn’t the case. The reason I did this is that I very strongly believe that if I’m going to criticise something then I should at least have experienced it for myself to give it a fair crack of the whip. Nothing I saw changed my initial impressions from gameplay videos however.

My opinion having now played it;

- The rolling stock are the best part of the DLC by some margin. They both look great but undoubtedly have issues, more so than is apparent from gameplay videos. To name a few, the sounds are ok but not on a par with their AP Enhanced TSC counterparts, particularly the HST. The 158 is better but there are definite issues with the way the engine powers up. Where the 158 behaves differently to the AP version but may well be more realistic, there are problems with the physics on the HST (I’m comparing them to the AP version and I absolutely trust that they have it correct). They lack basic features - working Vultron destination display and GSM-R being two and the destination display on the 158 is just completely incorrect. As always, the cabs of both units are far too bright and aren’t acted upon by external lighting in a realistic way. They don’t go dark when you pass under a bridge. I’d give the HST 6/10 by virtue of the physics, sounds & missing GSM-R and the 158 7.5/10, marked down for the missing features, the external destination display and the transition sounds as the engine powers up. With a bit more work however they both can be really very good additions to the game.

- The station models are pretty good but they are missing many details and feel dead and lifeless. Very little in the way of clutter, and ticket machines from East Coastway. Would it really have killed to have added the East Midlands Parkway signage to the station exterior? It is visible from the cab as you approach the station after all. I also don’t recall seeing any stop markers. The second best feature after the rolling stock but much room for improvement.

- There are significant LOD issues, both with pop-in but also with iconic landmarks. Even on PC Ultra settings the cooling towers at East Mids Parkway look like badly put together half-finished clay models until you are almost right on top of them. That’s if you can see them of course, because for such a large structure they should be visible from much further away than they are

- Timetable. Nothing more to say on this one

- The environmental lighting is terrible. BCC levels of terrible. The stations etc are not lighting up based on ambient light but on time of day, something we have been told would no longer be the case. Arriving into a city at night is like boarding the Marie Celeste in a blackout. On a positive note I’d say the eye adaption is probably the best I’ve seen in TSW3. That could be placebo as it can often be dependent on the service played and it may just be that there are virtually no tunnels. At least the signal visibility is much more realistic.

- Finally, my big bugbear that I just can’t overlook. In my opinion the route building is every bit as bad I’ve said it was previously. It really is a barren wasteland. On the JT version, driving from Nottingham to Leicester, you feel like you are leaving and arriving into major cities. In-between you are very clearly powering through the East Midlands on a UK railway. Not so in TSW, I arrived into Leicester not actually realising I was there. There is no clutter, no lineside foliage, the ballast is overly reflective whilst not marrying together seamlessly and is completely the wrong colour. The shadow pop in on the track is the worst I’ve seen in the game. Compared to the Just Trains version the distant scenery is really very poor indeed. Where there are bridges and buildings etc 90% of them are really obviously recycled from older TSW routes (like the warehouse/mill from NTP which is totally out of place here) and very little to nothing is custom modelled for this route. Level crossings don’t appear to work (a basic feature!) and the whole thing is just feels very rushed, generic and lacklustre.

Overall, if I were to mark this specific part of the JT route as a much deserved 9/10, I’d have to give this no more than 5. It is only that high because of the rolling stock, were I marking the route building itself I’d struggle to give it anymore than 1 or 2 out of 10. As a barometer for UK content in TSW, I would personally mark the route building on the 5 year old GWE (as the only other HST / DMU route) as it stands now as a good 7.5 (possibly 8)/10.

 

Hi Jane,

I have bought the route due to the negative reviews on Steam and saw either it was fixed already or I didnt have an issue.

I found the route very enjoyable considering it was just diesel.

Well done and the detail was good and scenery.

Nottingham is extraordinary!!

Hopefully if someone else doesn't make it I hope you will make West Coast over Shap! Unless someone is doing it already.

Thanks!!

Daniel

 

I wouldn't say TSC is a much smaller market - DTG would long have dropped it then instead of investing resources to give it the current overhaul.

According to SteamDB, the estimated sales are 880,000 to 2,200,000 TS vs 47,000 - 130,000 TSW3. I don't think the console market is that much bigger to even come close. Could be wrong, of course, but I still think the market is bigger for TSC.

 

About a year ago on a video, TrainSimTV estimated the TSC market as about 6,000 players so I’m basing it on that. I can only imagine that given it is spread across 3 platforms (4 if you include Epic) that TSW is currently a bigger market. It really ought to be right? Hopefully that makes sense.

Have a look at this vid from exactly 37 minutes in. Some really interesting narrative in this whole video about Route building & budgets!



Either way, I think the point is a valid one. I’m not trying to be combative, just understand how one developer is able to build a quality realistic route for a smaller market at £19.99, and another is suggesting it would take 7 years and cost £600 a copy to do the same thing. Something doesn’t add up somewhere.

 

Sry, but why can't I expect to get at least some quality for my money? It doesn't have to be as detailed as with the Niddertalbahn, but the landscape, vegetation and scenery on the MML is very carelessly slapped down. If you're happy with that, fine, but I'm not.

In general, I think that future DLC should be based on the Niddertalbahn - orientate, not imitate!

Don't get me wrong, the two cars are great, I like them, but the track is the worst implementation since TSW3 in my opinion.

 

Whatever the numbers are, JustTrains are a) in the business since RailSimulator days, b) have made a lot of routes and assets, therefore having much experience and a huge library of assets c) building for TSC is routine as everyone's used to the editor for 15 years now.

It seems route building for TSW is way more complicated and restrictive in terms of max assets and staying console compatible. I remember a discussion about Pacific Surfliner where some TSW veterans told me it would not be possible to make such a route for TSW due to the complex scenery, but then - I don't know... still think the market's bigger for TSC, because of the amount of 3rd party devs developing for it, sharing that market with DTG. It's got a solid base of collectors and has probably sold two millions of copies.

 

This thread is for the MML bugs and fixes, anything else should be under a new thread.

 

I had a go at the Class 66 RHTT service to Toton sidings. I decided to stay on the train as free roam after completing the service. To my surprise I found that the AI train took me into an unfinished Toton sidings! All the train and majority of the buildings are there including surrounding scenery. The AI service ended with the train reversing all the way up to Toton TMD.

I assume due to the area being unfinished ie Toton TMD is a white block and the scenery finished after the bridge over the B5010 is why the service stopped at Meadow Lane. Is this is something we will get access too at some point service wise? As seems like it would open up another host of potential services?

 

For those who have been on board a 158 before, is it correct that the engine rev up so quickly?

 

Matt, morning! I own up to asking for the Peaks on the railtour! I twisted the arm of Tom the developer to add them in for me as I have so many memories of Peaks from Sheffield to St Pancras! (he gives me a shout out about it on the preview stream )

 

This is exactly what I mentioned last week about very specific hooks for future expansion

 

Thank you for this. I believe we have logged all of these, but will double check with QA. I really appreciate you taking the time to list these. Thank you.

 

pleased to report this is currently fixed in test.

 

and as I have pointed out a couple of times, those numbers I gave where deliberately tongue in cheek. All I was saying is that it would take a long time and cost to create everything we wanted to do out of the gate...

I cannot go in to commercials, but you are right, TSW is significantly more labour intensive than TSC to develop for, with various reasons for that.

 

As per my other comment on this, you have taken me out of context. I was simply saying, tongue in cheek, as I have explained a few times now, that to do everything we want (and I haven't shared what we would like to do ) would take a long time and have a high cost. The 7 years and cost was just tongue in cheek illustrative not real numbers. Just saying there is a whole load we want to do and how we would like to continue to keep building for this route, if the commercial people give us the green light. In dev, it is not our call.

 

There is a lot to show in this video, I tried to make it as short as I could, but this what I see in just the training center, I reloaded the game several times even rebooted the PC. Took me a few days to get done "real life happens" and with my daughters help.
https://youtu.be/BDdocE-4D0w

 

That’s fair enough, that wasn’t my intention at all. I appreciate you weren’t being literal, but I can’t see how I’ve quoted or taken you out of context?

I’d be interested, if you’re able, if you could elaborate on why TSW is harder to develop for than TSC? How does that affect this route specifically? Are you talking about the rolling stock, the route building side of it, or both?

The argument always made with TSW was that, because the routes were significantly more detailed than their TSC counterparts they took longer to develop and as a consequence had to be shorter to generate profit. We now seem to be at the point that the routes are not only significantly shorter than their TSC counterparts, but they’re also significantly less detailed and more generic. That is the source of so much frustration felt by customers.