Midland Mainline - Skyhook Feedback

I'm genuinely impressed by the communication from Jane looking into what needs fixing and hopefully delivering them I will gladly re buy the route once the update has been released thank you Jane keep up the great work

 

Seeing this level of engagement with the community is quite refreshing. I certainly didn't expect to see micro-updates like "an environment designer took a minute to add 4 bushes between tracks at this one station" lol. You should probably consider having some intern post a couple screenshots of stuff being fixed every few days until the patch is ready. I bet that'll go a long way towards building goodwill.

On the topic of screenshots: if we strip all the "we care"/"we are listening"/"we have passion" and "we have lists of issues that are being worked on, honest" lip-service from the recent communications, all we tangibly have after 10 days of work are:
(1) a screenshot showcasing improved night lighting on Class 158's gauges (which amounts to "2 textures got tweaked"), and
(2) a screenshot with some environment improvements to a single station.

There is no release date of the patch, not even, apparently, internally. There is, however, a mind-blowing claim that the DLC wasn't rushed, but was just too difficult to do:

Intricate, you say. Not rushed. Right. There's a beta tester right here that says the beta team's feedback was ignored because of "insufficient development time and/or unrealistic deadlines for the amount of work required." So who's lying, you or him?

I also have a major problem with the following quote:

No. I'll judge you by the quality of the actual product that you put out, thank you very much. Not by how well you can talk on a forum. And "willingness" to address issues doesn't mean anything. I was quite willing to go on a oceanic cruise this morning. Did it happen? No it didn't.

Don't get me wrong, good communication is definitely a step in the right direction. Even in this thread, as you can plainly see, people are reassured and their opinion of SHG is up. My opinion is up as well. I'm optimistic for the future. However, the track record in the present speaks for itself, so I'm not going to suddenly buy this recent mess now just on a promise of improvement at some undefined point later. No matter how well-worded this promise may be and how many times it says "we care." When this premium-priced product is genuinely good, and independent reviews/videos prove it to be good, then a purchase will be considered. Not 1 minute earlier.

Some encouragement to offset the criticism: if you deliver on this upcoming patch, you can start building a good track record and repair your company's reputation among the more involved customers rather swiftly. I'm sure you, as a veteran in the industry, are well aware of exactly what you're working with here and how to turn this thing around. And hey, people love a redemption arc. As for casual customers, most of them don't even care who made the route or keep track of each 3rd-party dev, they just know not to buy any DTG product day 1. So if your next route is good, it's likely they will buy/not buy based simply on initial reviews.

On a completely different note, congratulations to New York–Trenton, which, as of today, is no longer the worst-rated TSW3 route on Steam!

 

Am not talking about updates. Am talking about communication on there part. Skyhook jane has communicated more to us than i have read on here from dtg lately. I know there busy but least jane posts on here to keep up updated.

 

jane-skyhook is there any work on East Midlands Parkway, as you can see from the two pictures the basics are there but the car park has white barriers all over the place when it is completely open. with no access and the roundabout is slightly wrong. I have attached Google Street View image as a comparison.

 

When is the 1st update

 

short answer yes I was in a meeting with the art team a couple of days ago and this was raised and addressed.

 

I will gladly tell you this when I know Why don't I know now John... The simple reason is that the guys are still plugging away on fixes. I want to leave them doing that for obvious reasons. That means the fixes have not yet gone to QA (one of the posters above mentioned the process and he was spot on). QA may find we have knock on problems etc.

Once I call a halt to fixes for this round I will approve it to go to QA. Their feedback will let me know if we have broken something. All being well at that point I will have a date sorted for release.

Right now there is not a date internally except we want this to you as soon as we can and rapidly. Our focus is entirely fix, fix and more fix right now. I don't want to rock that boat and keep that mindset to get as much done as possible before handing off to QA, production etc. There is a whole chain of things and people to pass through before we have a date, not managed by myself. I promise when I know, you guys will too.

Jane

 

I've not purchased yet, so can't really comment and provide feedback.

But what I did want to say is Jane your openness and communication here is a breath of fresh air and is chalk and cheese when compared to the communication we get from others developing routes for TSW.

I hope DTG and the partners use your approach as a template.

Oh and you've converted another sale.

 

I really appreciate your taking the time to say that thank you. It genuinely is fabulous to hear feedback like this. I am far from perfect, but doing all I can to share what I can with everyone in the spirit of openness and sharing.

 

OK thank you for letting us know

 

A short status update with me after meeting with the teams.

I now see 93 items reported as fixed. These are substantial items, including a swathe of things from yourselves. These are not "we moved a tree 30 centimetres". I have asked the team to let me have those minor items too separately.

We also have a number of feature additions that were not on any tasklist for fixing. Entirely new content too (I will discuss those shortly including some stuff that personally excites me as a fan)

That 93 may flex up and down, so don't see it as a hardcoded number, but as a rough guideline. I expect to see substantially more items added. Some items may be aggregated in to one item, if it is the same issue in different places of the map etc. So this is - big disclaimer here - the work in progress number I am seeing at my desk right now. I did want to share though as an indicator.

Again, these are issues and not tweaks as discussed. Tweaks currently are likely to be over 100 things tidied in the environment.

Once we call a halt for this patch and these items go through QA and confirmed fixed I will share the list with you. I don't want to mislead now in case something comes back to us in dev as still broken etc (it happens sometimes). So once I have official signoff of quality I will share just ahead of patch release.

This is today's snapshot with working continuing at pace on other items. So this is not the end of the process. Just where we are today.

 

I genuinely appreciate you have your views and I encourage people to air them. To quickly address some of this.

We are a work week in to fixes and still plugging away. I detailed in another post the process and being as transparent as I can, without breaking commercial agreements between all the parties. I cannot just open the door on everything based on contractual issues. However, that said, we are only a week in and cannot give dates nobody has now for reasons described.

As to whether we are lying or a beta tester is lying I think is combative to be honest and I am not here for combat. The beta testers have been fantastic each and everyone of them. I cannot tell you about happened and why in previous milestone deadlines for this product as I was not part of the company and have only just joined. I cannot speak to the development history. I can only speak since I picked up the torch. My experience in the very short time I have been here is the team at Skyhook are highly committed, the beta team have been fabulous and DTG have been nothing but supportive with me.

I take your point about casual customers and who makes content and remember we are not DTG and I cannot speak for them. So general talk of buying DTG products is not something I am qualified to comment on. From the Skyhook point of view though I want Midland Mainline to be the best it can be for personal pride in my work, the collective pride of a team who really care and to deliver the best we can to all of you.

 

Fantastic, as I must say now a week on, this is one of the most enjoyable routes I have played on, even though I am biased being a route I often use. With fixes in place I really do feel it will be pretty much the best route on TSW. It will also feel like a community route that has so much great input from everyone on here and of course you obvious passion and support for the end customer.

 

Right jane-skyhook, you have my money (again). I had to buy it to make the following video…

I have ranted and raved about TSW until I'm almost blue in the face, and when I've compared it to TSC I've kept saying 'if only you could see it on my PC'. Well, here it is. It was hard work to edit but I really hope it is of some use to you. I believe it also serves to highlight the core issues with TSW that are out of your control.

Anyway, I'm committed now as there’s no way Steam will give me a second refund. I'm relying on you and your team to step up and make this route the best it can be. God speed

Midland Mainline | TSC vs TSW - A Side By Side Comparison - YouTube

Both were recorded in 4k, with all the settings as high as they could go. There are no mods or .ini tweaks present in the TSW3 version. The services are identical (to within a minutes departure time) and the audio is from Train Sim Classic throughout. There are 2 very short sections where I had to revert to single screen because it was impossible to keep the two games matched up, mainly because I was catching an AI train in TSC.

TSC Version
- Just Trains Midland Mainline
- AP VP185 EP
- AP Sky and Weather Pack v2.0 (Fair clouds and wind causing the sun to be blocked occasionally)
- 4K

TSW Version
- Skyhook Games Midland Mainline
- TSW3, 4K Ultra, No mods
- Weather Light Clouds manually adjusted to match TSC, wind 50%

 

Any plans to add the missing drawbar to the hst for emergency hauling? Yes the gwr hst supports that feature.

 

Thank you for taking the time to do this. I genuinely find it very helpful. I have great respect for Just Trains. (I worked with them for many years on various projects )

 

Wow, that really is a world of difference.

I've actually always been a supporter of TSW, but here the quality in the TSC is significantly higher, I have to admit that.

It would be really great if the TSW version went in this direction, so that the good vehicles also get a worthy track design.

@ jane-skyhook

Can we expect an overall increase in the general design quality, especially with the vegetation? Or will only certain areas be revised?

Apart from that, I really appreciate the openness and communication on your part.

 

It is a route we want to grow and grow, breaking new territory in the sim.

 

The environment team are working right across the map. A whole pile of work has been put in to updating vegetation in many locations. Thank you for appreciating the communication, it means a lot!

Jane

 

I will ask for you. Not a problem.

 

The reason for doing it was three-fold. One to highlight that for a modern engine TSW3 doesn’t seem to be getting the best out of UE4, secondly to hopefully help Skyhook see in real-time where some additions could transform the look of the route, and then finally to show that TSC is far from done with.

We have to remember that some Just Trains content in the past has been ropey to say the least. I own the whole Western Mainlines network yet don’t have it installed because it’s so bad. Personally I think they deserve immense credit for having turned that around. You can also see the constant improvement between the initial sections of their MML to the latest releases.

My major hope is that someone higher up in DTG might watch it and think ‘hang on a minute’, not because of your product but because of what they’re giving you to work with.

Anyway, I’ve spent my pennies. It’s over to Skyhook

 

Oh, it certainly isn't. I truly believe that. That's why every time somebody says it needs a new engine, I feel compelled to point out that it doesn't.

 

I keep coming back to in my mind that skyhook have cracked route and timetable extensions.

There's no discussing extra stock for this and I think there's a reason why

 

I absolutely love the JT fleet of steam locos to be honest. Just adore them and drive them all the time in TSC... Yes, when I leave work I use TSC and TSW as my weekend fun too!

 

30 seconds in and you look at that tunnel and the lighting just looks naff on tsw in comparison.

DTG JD do you think your CTO would get on board similarly? Respectfully this post is highlighting a massive communication disparity to bug fixes between the two companies.

I know DTG do communicate a lot but I'm confident many people are seeing a seismic gap to bug comms. The progresa pics too is something I think is a win

 

I like your mind is all I will say.

 

I think DTG have done similar threads but haven't been anywhere near as active on them. I understand its probably quite time consuming but seeing Skyhook and Janes input on this thread has actually been a nice surprise. Hopefully dtg are taking notes

 

If you're team has cracked how to create modular routes that can snap in and out of use depending on dlcs you own, yet retain conjoined timetables enabling players to build up a connected in network then the day you may announce it you'll have holy grailed the train simmers dream (and likely break the forum too)

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to do this. I can only imagine the amount of time it must have taken to edit to keep both in sync. It highlights how bland and less vibrant the Skyhook version currently is. Hopefully they can rectify.

 

Thanks, its the buckeye draw bar for the couplers of the 66s and mk1 coaches.

 

A good chunk of today, I wouldn’t want to do much more than half an hour’s worth of video for sure!

jane-skyhook I think a number of us can see you’re trying, which is more than we’ve seen for a while. It’s given me a bit of faith that perhaps there is a brighter future for TSW and that’s why I bought the route (again). Please though, assuming this is the first part of a much bigger network, get the foundations right. If you nail this you’ll be laughing.

ps I don’t know what you’ve done that’s different, but IMHO you’ve got the eye adaption looking the best it has in TSW. The exit of the tunnel is pretty spot on I’d say.

 

I quite agree with you. Not a single second of disagreement. Build a solid foundation is an absolute priority.

 

"I genuinely appreciate," "highly committed," "nothing but supportive," "collective pride of our team," "deliver the best we can."
Didn't you say you weren't here to do corporate-speak?

"I think is combative to be honest and I am not here for combat" — merely quoting two people isn't combative, I don't think. When you say this DLC wasn't rushed and someone involved with the development says it was, someone must necessarily be lying. It either was rushed or it wasn't. You simply cannot have two people stating opposing positions in this situation without one of them lying. Pointing this out isn't "combative," it's just, well, pointing things out.

I didn't ask you to "open the door on everything." I've only suggested posting some screenshots of the work being done. You know, as you've only posted 2.5 so far, with the rest of your prolific message history being just words. I still think that's a good idea, btw. To be blunt: your company has, through no fault of your own, a reputation for producing abandonware. That's just how it is. Thus, when you can't provide even a rough estimate of the initial fixes' release date when explicitly asked, and when you brush off requests to give screenshots of the work being done, it's really not a good look. I'm sure you can, with your 40+ years' worth of experience, put yourself in my shoes and see this.

Again, I'm trying to give you all the benefit of the doubt here, but for me, goodwill doesn't just happen out of thin air. Some people have already re-bought based simply on your words. I will not. For me to buy your product, it will first have to be worth the money. I hope that, under your leadership, it becomes so. If this route stays unfinished, no one wins.

 

It is a good look for me. I would rather they take their time rather than come up with an arbitrary date and miss it or rush, as then there would be much anger and criticism of them for that.

 

I agree with you. As mentioned also, I cannot just whistle a date out of thin air as that would be unfair on all of you. I need to see where we are in the process before those calls can be made with any degree of date confidence. Even when we finish in dev, there is a chain of dealing with DTG, Steam and a whole bunch of people to confirm a date we can go live. I cannot for example finish in dev tonight and go live tomorrow. There is a whole chain of procedure to follow with handoffs and liaison with stakeholders, available uplift slots etc... So I just won't make a date up for us to look great on a forum. I would rather tell it how it is and be honest.

Finishing in dev kickstarts the whole publishing process and planning, which is not in the hands of myself or the dev team. I will be made aware of publishing decisions, steam availability etc for the uplift and once I am, I will share. It's all I can do really as I want to keep it honest.

 

I agree, that's why I said "a rough estimate." You know. "Next month." "Q2 2023." "Before Christmas." Not a concrete date, but just something to keep in mind. I don't care if it's next year, I should have at least some vague idea of when to expect a finished product.

...yes? You're the CTO, shouldn't you know how long it takes between finishing development and the update going live? "I need to see where we are in the process before those calls can be made with any degree of date confidence" — do you not know where you are in the process? You certainly talk like you do.

Yes, this might seem unfair, what with you having just joined, but hey. When your team releases the worst-rated TSW route ever, some uncomfortable questions are bound to be raised. Even when we include TSC, there have been only 2 routes rated worse than this one: Köln Airport Link Extension and Midland Main Line: Sheffield–Derby... huh.

Maybe this route is just cursed.

 

Worth pointing out that my actions are in line with Skyhook’s, and that my words are the same.

There won’t be a purchase made of MML until these words result in action. Even then this is purely on the basis of this DLC, there is no excuse for the previous (seriously, 187) DLC’s, and I won’t have any more confidence in later DLC’s either. This sort of thread should not have to happen given the resources available to Skyhook & DTG.

I’m quite vigilant to the fact that Skyhook have done this before, talked the talk and delivered naff.

Ultimately this is all just words until it’s not, but I do think the attitudes need to be dialled back, I’m quite annoyed with both DTG & Skyhook, but I’m willing to give Jane the opportunity to show us a real change has been made with their arrival.

At the end of the day, If we aren’t willing to accept that something could change, we might aswell sign off the forum and forget TSW was ever a thing.

 

Have you told Matt this JD? Might horrify him lucky Matt and I have been friends for 20 years

Seriously though I agree with your post. I also want to point out to the gang here too that internally DTG and Skyhook are in lockstep with addressing issues, working as a coordinated group. So I don't want people to think there is a "skyhook way" and a "DTG way" - Behind the scenes we are working as one team on this. I am just the one who is feeding MML updates to you all as best as I can.

 

to be clear, in terms of process I meant the publishing and release process, which is not the responsibility of me in dev. I will indeed be made aware, but the cart cannot come before the horse, in that we need to finish the patch before we hand over to all the different departments and stakeholders to sort out publishing dates. I look after technical development and can only talk to that as I do not lead publishing or production. Yes, I will be kept in the loop, but cannot share information before it exists. So I will not just make things up. I want to be very direct, open and honest with you all.

 

Tbh, that's what I do every so often. To reset the memory, as it were. "Oh, the bugs are starting ruin the experience again. I'm getting upset too often. Time to take a few weeks' break."

Come on, there weren't even mean words exchanged!

At least, we can agree on this:

 

Wow, TSW looks really bad compared to the old TSC. Especially the trees and that awful cartoonish look to everything. Terrible

 

Maybe not, but still, your post wasn’t exactly civil.

Trust me, I get it, I think that the marketing aspect of TSW is disgusting, and they really stretch the morality of what they’re doing, but what company doesn’t? (And no that doesn’t make it ok).

Unfortunately this genre doesn’t have any competition in the market yet, but as soon as something comparable comes along, with the content I’m interested in, DTG will lose my custom and I’ll move on.

Until then, if what Jane is offering comes to fruition, then it’s the best we’re gonna get and we should allow that to happen, there’s no point in getting irate about it, because what happens or doesn’t happen to this content won’t be based on how happy you or I am.

The simple fact is that upto now, TSW has cost Skyhook a big part of their reputation, so I’m not surprised new people have been brought in, and consider this DLC is the start of a network, Skyhook will just be wasting their time trying to build it from the current iteration, this DLC doesn’t have good reviews & it isn’t in a good place with the community at large (read, outside of this forum). Good luck trying to sell pieces of MML at £30 a pop with that type of rep.

The only thing you can do is accept TSW for what it is, under-utilised and will never reach its full potential, we’re 5/6+ years in and still can’t get consistent quality.

As I said, let’s allow Jane the opportunity to give TSW some stand out content.

 

CK95

There is lots of competition already and for most countries there are already better option, maybe except for US passenger and UK.

 

Thank you for this. I understand passion and frustration. The team and myself are doing the best we can and working very hard. I want to share the progress with everyone and not be behind a wall to you guys. I am posting in my own free time, giving up some of that free time because I want to create a relationship here between Skyhook and all of you, so we can move forward together. I am doing this in my own time at nearly 9PM in the evening. This is not a corporate exercise but a genuine attempt to reach out and engage with you all.

I appreciate there are a wide spectrum of views and opinions. That is life, but I really appreciate you making the point of keeping it civil. That was really good of you thank you. Means a lot. I don't want to give up my personal free time to be sniped at when trying to engage here. I am a fan too, it is why I am engaging directly.

I really appreciate your posts thank you. You have engaged with me in the time I have been posting here in a considered and decent manner, even when sharing frustrations. I hope I respond to you (and all of you) in the same manner. Your decent yet fully open approach means a lot to me personally.

Thank you
Jane

 

Yup, and it’s the latter I’m after.

Just waiting for SimRail to find its feet.

 

I know I am super old, but does anyone else remember Southern Belle, with London to Brighton in glorious wireframe on the Sinclair Spectrum. How I used to love that!

 

I think that's a really bleak way of looking at it. If not for customers voicing their dissatisfaction, whether it be with their words or their wallets, what reason would a company have to improve its products?

I can only assume you meant "Skyhook would be good, if not for TSW" by that. Let me assure you, that would not be the case. Just take a look at Lawn Mowing Simulator. I played that at launch. It was middlingly good, then it received some 'meh' updates, and then it got abandoned. Sound familiar?

Huh? You mean like with Route Extensions in TSC? I though that was too technically difficult to implement in TSW?

I still hold hope. I'm not throwing my money at that hope, mind. Been burned too often. But I still hold it.

 

Oh yes. I'm pretty sure I had that...

 

As I said, it’s a big step forward for Skyhook, and of course you personally get a lot of credit for coming in here and opening the dialogue.

I’m More than happy to await where this leads, there’s no point in all this drama if those of us calling for changes just continue to shout at you after you’ve agreed to and started working towards what we’re asking.

I appreciate you being here, and what you’re doing to resolve the concerns raised with this DLC.

I was a kid at the time, but my Dad had this, and on the occasions I did play it, I do remember thinking ‘wow I’m driving a train’.