Hi I just wanted to say that there's so much talk and so many posts lately that Train Sim World/DTG need to stop supporting Generation 8 consoles soon. I am on PS4 Pro (Gen 8) and will not be in a position to upgrade to PS5 for a long time (assuming I wanted to, i'm perfectly content on PS4 as it stands) I know in reality that in time Train Sim World may leave PS4 and equivalent behind.. but I really hope it won't be for some years yet. With a potential pending large upgrade to the game coming this summer (whether that be a brand new big 3-game bundle) or an entirely new TSW4, i just really hope that it is still available for those of us on Gen 8 consoles. People often say Gen 8 needs leaving behind, that those with PS5 and high end PC's need to be prioritised, but not everyone can afford these things, especially as financially things are so difficult these days. Some of us will be on the older consoles for a long time to come, and it feels lately there's a large vocal section saying we need leaving behind, I just hope that won't be the case. So this is just my message that there are Gen 8 users like me out here using PS4 Pro, and will be for years to come.. and i hope so much that any new TSW content that comes up can still be played on these consoles for a fair few years to come still. Finally on a personal note, my hope above all is that before Gen 8 is dropped (if it ever is, and if so hopefully not for years yet) is to see the ECML made a reality in the game, because if it ever was made a reality but only for PS5/PC and not PS4, i'd be gutted at missing out. Thank you Katia
Around for years? Give me a break. We know now that unequivocally the Gen 8 consoles are holding this game back for everyone else and their days should be numbered as a consequence. I had a PS4 and it stopped being useful for anything other than streaming TV on a good while ago. Frankly it could barely do that with any conviction. At the rate with which technology moves on a decade of use/support for a console of that vintage is more than enough. ‘There are no plans to drop Gen8’….until there are.
Gen 8 consoles are holding the game back imo its probably why the majority of the routes are short because they can't handle the bigger ones and the people on next gen are missing out on longer routes should put an end to them
It’s certainly the reason the Class 700 isn’t being put on BML. We’ve also been told this week this is why so many routes lack clutter etc. All to do with memory. Gen8 consoles were awesome 10 years ago but they have had their day.
Completely agree I'm on series x I was over the moon when I heard the 700 was coming to the game but to hear only on sehs was a big disappointment
this at least fills me with confidence for now, thanks! i've just seen post after post after post lately from people saying that dtg need to leave gen 8 behind.. not everyone feels this way and i don't like the way a lot of people think just because some of us still use ps4 (or equivalent) we no longer matter and are less important than those on ps5 and high-end pc's ultimately only dtg can decide what will happen with gen 8 for the future, and that's absolutely fine with me, i just wanted to add one voice in favour of still supporting gen 8 amongst the many, many vocal people lately saying that we should be forgotten about!
Take comfort in this. Forum members will not decide which platforms are supported. The anti-gen 8 posts you're reading are meaningless.
When gen 8 makes up such an important portion of route sales and purchases they'd be stupid to drop it on the gamble that they'd make up for it based on game updates and content
Simply not true. Route length has NOTHING to do with memory; DTG could build the Trans-Siberian Railroad within the capacity of a PS4, because tiles are loaded and unloaded as the player train passes through them. The limitation on length is developer time and budget.
This forum can be tough. But it is not representative. So much for sustainability to save the climate, humanity and the world .... and then it needs to be always the latest IPhone, tablet, laptop or ..... console. Go figure! I think PS4 can still deliver remarkable performance for many games. And it is no coincidence that Sony still sells recon PS4s in considerable numbers. At least where I live. Unfortunately TSW3 is not such a game, I had my PS4 on its knees on routes like BML or DRA, the hardware just couldn´t handle it. Having that in mind there´re still a number of routes that are less demanding and run quite well on PS4. Try the routes that were lucky enough to go through the hands of Adam´s preservation team (now defunct). And have fun there! I haven´t the first clue about gaming software, but I´m leading a devops team which develops software for other applications (completely different cup of tea). However, the principles of software development on that area demand you to plan and develop for the worst imaginable case. You would then downsize whatever applicable to adapt to hardware with lower performance. By taking off assets, screen resolution, comm bandwidth to other eco-systems, skipping 2nd priority capabilities ... etc etc etc. You´d never develop for the lowest performing hardware only to upscale later then to more capabilities. Never ever! And that´s why I believe also DTG would develop for the latest game PC (that NASA hipersupernuclear warp PC) and then tone it down as less as possible and as much as needed. It would be stupid to NOT follow this logic because tomorrow that ´hipersupernuclear warp PC´ becomes common standard and you need already development for the next generation. And that´s where the "Gen8 are holding us back" argument falls apart. At least that´s how I see it. Well, and then there´s the commercial aspect. If DTG know how to do one thing very well, then it is ´making money´. I have to give them that.
I've been meaning to upgrade (on Xbox), but the way things are at the minute, there is simply no need to.
I mean, they weren't anything to write home about when they launched either, but neither Sony nor Microsoft wanted to risk a repeat of the beginning of Gen7, when MS got to market a whole year before Sony, who were left playing catchup for most of the generation, so they both went with the hardware they could get in time to target the late 2013 release window, which is why the consoles were bottlenecked by those Jaguar CPUs for the ensuing decade.
I don't think they'll stop supporting gen 8 just now. From an economical point of view, it's better to have a mid-class (no offense) game played by 100.000 people than a high-performance game played by 80.000. (numbers are a wild guess). And raising the level of detail or route length will probably have no effect in terms of attracting customers. This is a niche game with a very loyal customer base, ever hungry for new content, so they're selling anyway.
Nyt was on the long side. So was lfr. Kwg, cjp, etc. The console doesn't affect route length. Routes on average are around 40-50 miles long since they take a while to make and some routes are short since players also want that. Glossop line is short and complete which means it's good for those who like it. Being long doesn't necessarily mean better gameplay or a better dlc
Length of route isn't really THAT much of a factor - it does play into it eventually because the whole track database must be loaded all the time, but, that's usually not the biggest thing in RAM anyway. A route like Munich has a MUCH bigger track database than Kassel Wurzburg for example because of the complexity of Munich. A US freight two-trrack end to end can go for a lot longer than a mega complex route with vast amounts of complex signalling. Memory is the primary constraint - the engine combined with some of our build processes mean that graphics are pretty much automatically catered for with bespoke settings on each platform, dialled down LOD's and textures on the lower end platforms, etc etc. Memory is going to be filled up by that track database, whatever tiles are loaded at that time and the scenery on them, and all the trains that are loaded, including all those custom reskins, substitutions and layers. tiles are loaded and unloaded as you drive though, so whether it's 1 mile or 100 miles that doesn't change the memory usage there. These days the game dynamically dials back things like substitution if the memory isn't there so that's handled automatically. Layers are more of a problem, but we have some stuff starting to come online that should let the game dynamically adjust layers based on available memory, and the "toggle layers" option would support that too if we can get that in at some point. Physics are the other constraint - in that the lower end consoles have a lot fewer horses under the hood, however we can do specific gameplay now for the different consoles so that gen 8 get lighter loads more appropriate for 10+ year old hardware. So, do the older platforms hold back the wild west of freedom for developing the most amazing content anywhere? Technically, to some extent, yes, but in a minor way really. We can tune most things automatically so we build for top end and it scales it all back automatically. Memory is really the kicker at the moment, and Series S is the troublemaker since currently it purports to be a Gen9 device so it's got all the greatest top end graphics loaded filling up memory, all the layers, all the trains and among the worst amount of ram available on even gen8 consoles! We have moves afoot to resolve that so we can treat Series S as a hybrid, allowing it to benefit from its strengths but not be hampered by its limitations. So what DOES really hold things back? Reality i'm afraid folks. These routes take a LONG time to make, the trains take a LONG time to make. I don't think anything technical would stop us from doing for example paddington to penzance even on gen8. But, it'd make absolutely zero commercial sense. There are moves afoot to help make route building quicker and easier, and the fruits of this are when you start seeing longer routes more regularly. However... i will also add that short routes are good too, not every route needs to be a behemoth. I happen to think the likes of Cathcart and Glossop are among my top routes because they much more fit in the time I have to play and I can still feel like I finished one or even multiple things - without hoping i'll get to finish this one thing before somoene says "matt can you..." and i have to exit. So even when the production of mega routes is feasible, you're still going to see some shorter routes too because there's a LOT of demand for them, just maybe not among this forum membership. Matt.
Really interesting insight Matt, thank you for taking the time to post that! Do you think add ons manager would help the series S run a little smoother? Its interesting to see how as the game grows the series s is struggling more compared to how we were when gen first came out where it did a pretty good job. I'm in the middle of kind of thinking about an upgrade from my series S to X but its a difficult one because I don't really have any running issues on my series S at the moment (SEHS with most layers and BML) and its a great little console.
I absolutely adore the Series S, if it had just a couple more gig of ram it'd be a must-have machine. I've probably got more hours in on my S now than my X even because of the testing i've been doing on it. The X runs so much smoother though, it just is a beefier bit of hardware than the S, so well worth considering - even if you don't run at 4K it'll give you a slick as heck 1080p experience, and that 16gb of ram is a lovely pool to swim in. Addon Manager helps a little with Series S but not much, the saving from not loading the asset library database for all DLC isn't huge, but it does make a difference for some of the testers. TBH really, there just needs to be a hybrid setting in our config that lets us target the S with content befitting its dimensions, that way full gen9 and PC can go wild, and gen8 dont need to feel stretched because the Series S wants more.
Hi Matt! Firstly thank you so much for taking the time for such a comprehensive and detailed response, i really appreciate it and it gives a lot of really good insight. it's really good to know that (other than the obvious age/upgrade) that gen 8 is still holding it's own in a lot of ways for TSW, and as someone who will be on PS4 Pro for a long time yet, that's really good to hear. I also like what you say about route lengths too, and i must say i hold my hands up and say i was very sceptical about the Glossop route. I thought it was both too short and that if there is now the licence for Northern Rail, that many better routes could have been chosen. But i was 100% wrong. The Glossop route is incredible, there's a variety of gameplay, the change from city to countryside blends really well, and i now fully buy into your theory that 'short and complete' routes are a great concept, and this proves that. Glossop has gone from being a route i was doubtful to purchase, to probably my favourite route in the game.. and i have to give you and everyone at DTG a huge amount of credit for the work gone into it, and i'll happily admit i was wrong to doubt this route! But thanks for the detailed response. I'm like a lot of others here i imagine in that i would love longer routes (feel free to add ECML Peterborough to Doncaster or York to your to-do list for me haha) but given the fact I am stuck on PS4 for a long time yet (and tbh i really have no issue with PS4, other than Midland Mainline it runs every route perfectly for me, even the mammoth London-Brighton runs excellently on PS4 for me) i can very much get on-board with routes and lengths like Glossop going forward for sure! But ultimately as a gen 8 customer, and one for many years to come yet, this all fills me with a lot more confidence going forward. So thanks Matt, really appreciate it. Katia
I likewise probably in the long run get more time on my S than my X, simply because I take it everywhere with me. Totally agree on the draw of shorter routes where you can enjoy immersing yourself in the detail and fit in a smaller play session when you don't have two hours for one of those big US freight runs. Things like the simplified physics calculations for Gen8 make a lot of sense for how you'd be able to keep more parity even on those Jaguar chips, and honestly it's a trick I wish more devs were willing to implement in things. Look at when A Plague Tale Requiem launched and the game was locked at 30fps on the consoles primarily because they went so overkill on the number of rats that the PS5 and Series X CPUs simply couldn't keep up, vs when it got its 60FPS patch that massively simplified the rat swarms.
We already run a somewhat reconfigured simugraph simulation on the gen8 consoles - same data doing the same job, but run at half the cycles per second or something like that. Having a greatly simplified model such as having it mimic tsc's one for example, is a game-changingly complex job to implement and unlikely to happen Matt.
Yeah, I figured. Similar to all the rats in Requiem, the biggest CPU hit, still updating slower in the performance mode (which also results in them animating at 30fps while the rest of the game is bumped to 60), since it wouldn't be possible to maintain those performance increases from lowering their density while also having them continue to update in time with everything else in the game.
One of the best shorter routes I've played on is North London (Goblin Lines) for TSC. Doesn't feel short as there's a lot going on, but it's worth the look if you have TSC
Short routes are not really the issue, Glossop line, Cathcart Circle on TSW, and North London line are examples of short routes that I enjoy . The issue is more balance to be honest, The amount of short routes should be balanced out by the amount of long routes, If we were be getting a longer route at least 3 times a year, maybe from DTG or a third party, I think it would be much better compared to just constant short routes, same can be said for long routes, we shouldn’t constantly get the same thing, there should be variety, just like in TSC
Strongly aligned with this. Long routes are great in theory, but in practice, it’s the 30 to 45 minute runs that dominate my sessions. Even when I play longer sessions, it’s great to be able to squeeze shorter routes into a rotation. Last night I did a quick MML 158 run, followed by some 323 Glossop action in a little over an hour. Spent some time with the wife and had time to squeeze in my go to short run before bed: A quick 24 minute nighttime cab car run to Hamburg… There’s decent traffic and the Ferris wheel as well as Hamburg station look awesome all lit up. I wouldn’t get decent 3 route nightcaps like that if we just had all long routes. But don’t get me wrong, I’ll start Saturday morning off with a long CJP run…. Just glad we have variety.
It will be sad to see a generation like the PS4 end but by the time we know it robots will be driving trains lol.
For me I prefer the longer hour - two hour runs, especially when it goes from destination to destination, whether it’s an express or a stopper I love long routes, the advantage long routes have over short routes, is whether you drive a 15 minute or 2 hour run, you get satisfaction from both
I like long runs. They are the best sort for express services; short routes don't feel the same Short routes also work. It all depends on the time I have available.
Yes, same but I lean more to longer routes, especially scenic ones, so the WCML north of Preston, or the ECML north of Newcastle are my preferred routes
Although I would love to see longer routes I agree there is a place for the shorter runs too. Glossop isn’t that bad despite my initial scepticism though it could have done with New Mills and Marple to flesh it out. WSR apart from the tedious 25 MPH speed limit is also nice and self contained. A route like Severn Valley (or Blackpool Tramway) would sell like hot cakes alongside something longer. Longer routes are good but we are never going to see the likes of Mid East Plus or NWC2 in TSW as were created for MSTS. SKW mentioned and, frankly, slightly boring. Just a mindless blast through largely repeating scenery, speed up a bit, slow down a bit no real variety. Ah now there’s the word. A short route with a variety of different traffic patterns and things to do is far more interesting than the Linear A to B. The other thing we need before we get longer routes is more save slots. An end to end run on BCC or Peninsula Corridor can take an hour and a half. You might not want to return to the same run next time but do something else instead.
Gen 8 consoles are 10 years old in November, time to move on I say. The hardware has had a good run and you can only push it so far. Gen 9 hardware is 3 years old and the PS5 is suspected of getting a significant hardware refresh this year with slim model.
That’s a very valid point, Gen 9 is hardly ‘new’ anymore. 3 years old is almost unbelievable, it’s shot past!
One thing that any additional platforms require is time and planning - especially for QA and submission to consoles. From this perspective, you could argue that gen8 consoles add a layer of complexity here... but then, on that basis you could argue that consoles full stop add a layer of complexity. Of course, DTG could have decided to develop just for Steam and we'd probably see a quicker pace of development and testing... but then they'd also be passing up commercial opportunities such as Game Pass, not to mention all the gamers on console who wouldn't have been able to experience train driving. Normally old generations phase out once game engines no longer support them, or newer editions of the game contain core features that the older gens can't sustain. Not sure either of these would be something to face in the short-to-medium term, but I'm not a developer, so I'll happily take Matt's word on this.
unfortunately one day in the future it is something that's going to have to happen, Microsoft has now stopped producing stuff for gen 8, how longs it gonna be for others to follow suit
Well, next year at this time TSW4 will probably be released - do you think it will support Gen 8? If yes, that would probably mean it would stick with UE4, as I don't believe Gen 8 is capable to handle UE5. Not that TSW4 must be released on UE5, not sure if DTG has squizzed all that is there from UE4 now, but at some point DTG will have to upgrade to newer engine and I wonder if it is going to be TSW4 or later. If later than sooner then I think Gen 8 have nothing to worry about (except for fewer layers here and there occasionally).
I recommend everyone who has a PlayStation 4 to switch to the PS5. My reason was more power and the PS5 is quiet in operation. Glad to be jet engine PS4 further away.
not sure it’s as easy as saying simply upgrade when it’s costs hundreds to do so, and not everyone has that privilege or option available
This is one reason I expect them to continue supporting Gen8 longer than otherwise might be expected. On XBox there's an affordable upgrade path, but on PS, there's not. And we're stuck in a spiral of out of control prices on essentials like food, housing, and utilities, making something like a PS5 or Series X an unjustifiable expense to many.
Gen 8 consoles will be able to play TSW3 for years to come (but not necessarily TSW4). At some point DTG will wish to update the core to UE5 and draw a line under all previous DLC to enable advancement to the next level of simulation and graphics. I’m sure in the meantime they will support them as long as they can, but it should not be a reason to hold back on development.
Grand Theft Auto 5 done a next gen version of the game last year perhaps dovetail could do the same with tsw
They have. TSW3 on 9th gen has all the additional layers, the higher resolution, and framerate that are not possible on Gen8.
You can also compare the console generation discussion with modern Hollywood film productions. If the director, the actors and the script are bad, even a 100 million dollar production will only produce boring garbage that flops at the box office. But if the director is creative, the actors are likeable and the story is good, you can produce a small, successful masterpiece with a tenth of the production costs and maybe even win an Oscar. So in terms of console generations, this means that performance alone does not make any gameplay better. On the one hand, of course, there are the high-end PC players who regularly upgrade with the latest graphics cards and gadgets. But a developer must always take into account the vast majority of players who are not all PC gamers. According to DTG, PC players make up only a third of all TSW players, while the other two thirds are spread over Playstation and Microsoft consoles, which prefer to play with the controller while sitting relaxed in front of the TV. That's why there is no VR version of TSW yet, because the effort for a VR optimization would be too great for a very small user group. I personally only switched to the PS5 at the end of February this year, partly because it was finally available again after a 3-month pre-order waiting period. Now the delivery situation and availability is much more relaxed and according to Sony new PS5 models are in development. From this September, a (Slim) version may appear, via which a UHD drive can be purchased separately and plugged in. There is also speculation about a PS5 Pro from 2024, since a PS6 is not planned before 2028. A console cycle alone takes about 10 years on average and for each new console the complete production line in a factory has to be changed and new suppliers have to be found. I think the current PS5, even if it's already two and a half years old, is a big leap forward. The almost imperceptible fan noise alone compared to the PS4 Pro and the very fast SSD loading times convinced me. This allows you to gamble in a really relaxed manner without someone blow-drying their hair in the background. Conclusion: Gen8 still looks quite good graphically, even if texture sharpness, drawing distance and loading times are of secondary importance, the 8GB RAM can no longer really keep up. Small consolation, stuttering can also occur with 9th gen consoles, but that is more of an optimization problem than a lack of performance.
Its the noise of a PS4 pro under load. It's like a small jet engine at the best of times. Thankfully gen 9 console are almost virtually silent from playing distance
I was referring to it "Allowing you to gamble", I'm aware how loud Gen8 consoles can be, but I don't imagine them adding slot machines or blackjack tables to TSW unless they did the Las Vegas monorail XD
Sorry, but Google translated the German word: "zocken" with gamble. So that's what you get for relying on AI for translation. "Ein Spiel zocken" is German slang and means the same as playing a game.
