Enough Is Enough!!! The Ongoing Saga!!! 3 Year Anniversary

Well, DTG is EA Games in disguise.

 

If there's an upgrade pack later on I'll be making some scenarios of my own, mainly based on weird workings that have happened or may happen. An idea I had was to replicate the time Southern hired Southeastern 375s on some services. All three were /9s in the full yellow and grey livery, which is in TSW (even if it wasn't done very well). The service I can do is the 7:33 London Bridge to Brighton, although without London Bridge and a timetable to work from I'll just have to make it up as I go along.

 

A large majority of the replies with the negative feedback have completely missed the point of my post, it was never about how much it cost. It was about having to buy something to fix something we already had even though we were promised these fixes the last time and are still waiting. For example and this list is not exhaustive.....

• Class 700 Boards we are still waiting for
• MML still awaiting a large majority of patches
• Glasgow Edinburgh still awaiting fixes
• London commuter severe stuttering and lag to the point it still crashes at Victoria 8 times out of 10
• Livery Designer 2.0 has been on the roadmap since the start of TSW3 launch that is now paywalled behind TSW4
• Camera Controls, such as scrolling etc on Livery Designer TSW3 were never fixed although they said they were fixing the issue

Plus alot more issues that were promised to be fixed in previous iterations of TSW and have never seen the light of day.
So it has never been about the price, my post was about being expected to pay to fix something we already own. And if you don't buy the new game you miss out on any future routes. And also the fact TSW3 has been out barely a year and there is already a new one. That's what Left a bad taste in my mouth. So can we please all stop insulting each other, people are entitled to be upset with the game they brought and aren't happy with the state its in only for them to be dropped as soon as the new one comes out like we don't matter.

 

I dunno why dtg didn't expect a heated debate after last year. I feel we just deserve a real response to the frustration of TSW4. Hopefully it's not the normal cycle of these threads getting locked and this happening again next year. But I think a tsw5 next year will be met with a higher level of negativity. Pls save tsw.

 

Yeah, judging by looking at the thread, I think people are a...umm little, just a little angry, about TSW4

In my personal opinion Im just glad we even have ECML coming to the game, and with an EMU which has been requested for a while now, the editor is kind of a big one ngl, I know it's PC Only, but I'm glad it's coming, and it's gonna open a door for many people into development on this game.

 

Just my 2 cents, I don't entirely mind paying for TSW 4 - I look at it as buying a bundle of 3 routes (and 2 extra DLCs if you ordered the deluxe) for a decent discount. I do agree that the core updates could be made free, but at the same time they do give the option of the country bundles, so you can upgrade for fairly cheap (if you don't want any of the new DLCs with the new features, why even buy the next game?).

 

I can't say what they are going to do this year, but last year the Birmingham DLC released as a standalone product that also included the core TSW3 game. They might do the same thing with the first TSW4 DLC they release after launch.

 

What makes me laugh about this post and many others, is the fact most franchises release games on a yearly cycle. Look at FIFA (FC I mean) and COD. Pretty much the same games with slight tweaks to the game mechanics. So why all the hate when Dovetail want to release their next game in the series?
I just pre-ordered the deluxe edition on PS5 for £42. That’s 3 routes and 2 locos. That’s a reasonable price considering new dlc routes sell for £30, and locos at £11.99 or £14.99.

 

Then you’d be paying £30 x 3 for 3 routes = £90
2 locos at £15 each.
That’s £120 you’d be paying with less features if it was TSW3 version.
It’s 1/3 of the price for the TSW4 version.

 

because just because someone else does it doesn't make it right, and Dovetail always gave core updates for ts-classic for free, I know they added new features but none seem like ones that require a full new game like going up a level with new unreal engine. and games like ats and ets2 both provide core updates and even reworked content without asking for extra, i think people just want Dovetail to be a bit more consumer-friendly when it comes to issues like this, i haven't bought the core game since the first version came out on xbox and played the rest thru gamepass but again they aren't even offering gamepass this time around meaning if i want any of those features or future routes i will have to pay up. where ts-classic i could always just update my game and play the routes i liked.

 

As much as I dislike DTG's approach and they way they have gone about marketing recently, I will buy the game with pre-order to review it. Luckily I get access to the editor which is just about the only redeeming feature of this game. Still, I don't think it warranted a new title.

 

Honestly Deluxe Edition doesn't sound like a bad deal, might pick it up soon

 

Oh here we go the good old ats/ets argument. Ok let’s put it this way.

with the new TSW your getting the core update plus 3 routes and rolling stock.
Do you get new maps and trucks for free with an ats/ets upgrade

do you get 1-1 scale replica maps for the dlc payware maps to truck sim or are the fictional and not real time edit. Granted you have had the odd truck thrown in for free but NOT every new update.


Always makes me laugh when people
Throw in a sim that has FICTIONAL maps and pass that as a fair comparassion.

 

Ah well, it was a nice hobby while it lasted. Thanks DTG for confirming that TSW2 is now finally dead and that your company continues to be the shining beacon of lying [EDIT - Jan - Language] dragging out the same lie month over month for a year. Is the company slogan hanging in your lunchroom "We're not happy until our customers are unhappy"? I mean you guys do realize you're the laughing stock of the simulation gaming space right? Anyhow, thanks for having saved me and many others quite a bit of money in the long run. Money is better spent supporting reputable companies.

 

I havent called anyone names, or are you referring to someone calling me a humpback?

 

Again, I want to point out to the DTG defender brigade, check the thread heading before acting all riteous. If you don't agree with what we're saying or how we feel, skip the thread. It's easy enough.
You don't need to jump in on high horses and condescend others because you think you're right yourselves

 

That's a new rule? We are only allowed to agree or have to refrain from the discussion? It's called a forum for a reason.

 

I honestly thought this was going to be a summer DLC launch as DTG has done in previous years with the Rush Hour content. I would have preferred to have seen that again and keep TSW 3 going another year and TSW 4 released in 2024. I also thought we would see the full implementation of a guard mode rather than the half-baked interpretation of it in one of the recent DLCs that are extremely limited and not really worth doing.

The announcement itself wasn't as good as last year with the video that had people guessing with those clues and the sounds of trains going past. Although I did like the music at the start, it was rather a shame to see those with an incredibly short attention span saying "BORING" and "Get on with it" in the chat given the time that had elapsed from its commencement. It would be nice to see such a reveal as last year again in the future.

I read a lot of the posts on this thread and the other one about entitlement in wanting free updates before making my own post, and bug fixes seem to be the main complaint regarding the negativity. I do not know what these bugs are as I have not experienced any other than a typo on East Coast Way of Polegate (spelt Polgate in-game) on the dot matrix that has been there for a few years now, and the one on the London Commuter where the external camera is pushed around when you go under bridges before Haywards Heath.

As for the routes, I am indifferent about them and I will judge them upon release. Previously, I have only been buying routes that I have personally been on, but the recent Humble Bundle package changed my mind on that and I am more open to unfamiliar lines and trains. I think the highlight of the announcement is the Flying Scotsman.

 

Not when your views don't align with others and act militant.
You don't see me jumping on one of your "I love dtg so I'm going to kiss butt" threads and acting like you do when I don't agree.
Maybe I should, it is a forum after all

 

I'm lucky to be living in the free world. My views don't have to align for a discussion. Again it's a forum. Well you had your shot now. You have insulted me now and because it's between brackets I should not feel insulted as it's supposed to be an example. I hope this helped you recover from grief and I also hope it felt like real vengeance so you can go on with your life and keep avoiding discussions.

 

If you find that insulting then I truly feel sorry for you. You know where the block button is, use it to your content

 

Good morning everyone, I hope we all slept well.

Ive just been perusing the thread. I have my own views, no need to share them.

If you see a point or a view that is particularly triggering, pause. Count to 10. Allow your cerebral cortex to overcome the chimp in your brain. Then compose a reply that targets the point, not the person.

That way we'll all have a better day and help move this forward.

Time for my second cup of tea And if youre wondering why Im going on about chimps, google or search on youtube for The Chimp Paradox. Its big in human factors right now.

 

So it is confirmed that updates for older routes only come for TSW4. What a shocker...

May I ask what is the point in buying a route at release and for the current iteration, when it will becomes obsolete in a year and will only recieve bugfixes/updates for the new release?

It sounds like the best time to buy any add-on is 2 years after it's initial release.. Weird sales tactic.

 

Yes I find that insulting and no you don't have to feel sorry. It's not me having a bad time on the forum. Why should I use the block function? I'm ok with seeing views that don't align with mine.

It's a forum, not some Elon Musk owned platform

 

Thats a good point Ive highlighted. I think I might adopt that. The trouble is that initially you might be required to make two purchases. One for the DLC you want and, if its for TSW4 and above, another one for the update to the core game. I think the reality is that TSW as a game is now heavily fragmented and its possible that a rebranding or at least a clear demarcation in product might have resulted in more clarity for new consumers and the understanding of DLC placement wrt core game iterations with the potential requirement for two purchases outlined above, even if you happen to already own a TSW core product.

I assume there are a number of people for whom the routes released with TSW 4 core hold no appeal. Linking the DLC to the core as a bundle with associated cost presumably will test their brand loyalty to the limit and beyond which seems odd. Offering the core update separately from the DLC maybe was assessed as having the potential to reduce the units sold of the DLC, but that might also be skewing the internal company market data, who knows.

As a result of this though I personally won't be buying it. Im not putting that out there for anyone to respond, Im putting it out there so DTG know why theyre one unit down in sales. Feedback for the seller

 

This is exactly why I can no longer support the brand - you are open about putting patches to content we have bought behind another paywall. And considering it's a "sizeable patch upon release", a big chunk of said fixes has to be done already. You could release them for TSW3 too, but nothing beats boosting sales numbers. And the "good price" of new bundles doesn't change anything. This is a disgusting business practice. You've split the community with TSW3 and now you're doing it again. Luckily mistreating customers usually backfires, so here's hope.

 

You can get the updates for free in those games That is the point. Nobody is asking to make the dlc's free. The issue is that any future updates to the tsw collection will be locked behind a paywall after DTG said that they were working in improvements to older dlc's as highlighted on previous roadmap streams. TSC releases core updates for free and it works well for them so I don't see the harm in DTG doing the same for existing players. They still would've made money off of the DLC regardless. I don't see how it's that difficult to understand

 

Agree re ATS and ETS2. Nothing more disconcerting to leave Berlin and be in Paris in less than half an hour! They also pretty much messed up the sounds when they went to FMod unless you use third party mods. West Balkans looks nice but it will be the same condensed mix of motorways and main roads as always, with a token mountain pass to drive over.

 

Seriously, i don't know why this is such a difficult concept for the fanboys to understand. We are being forced to pay to continue recieving updates, whether that comes with 3 routes or not is irrelevant.

 

Thats probably going to trigger people in an unhelpful way. While disappointment and frustration are understandable, there are more helpful ways of steering the conversation.

 

You say that, but considering the amount of people who agree with what I'm posting, I wouldn't say I'm having a bad time. Enjoy the ride

 

Good Morning JD,

Hopefully the tidying and warning will preclude the requirement for the locking. That would seem logical.

I think locking the thread would be seen as censoring a legitimate reaction for those who feel the way they do and more damaging to the brand than allowing the conversation to continue. Clearly that has to happen within commonly accepted norms of behaviour and you've already stated that those individuals who overstep this will have their posts tidied and the individuals warned.

We all have a part to play in steering behaviour and not providing oxygen to inflammatory posts and I'd encourage everyone to play their part in this, especially the second part of not providing oxygen to those posts.

Have a better one

 

So you are fine now with TSW4. You got your likes so all is well now. Glad this is resolved and proud I made that happen. Everyone is now having a good time. Let the TSW 4 celebrations continue

 

I do not use the forums much. Just come and look around from time to time. But I can see why people are angry, I think they way dovetail used to release the new version of classic would be the best option. Everyone gets a core update, and you essensially pay additional for the routes. It will stop people from being left on outdated games, It is almost like Android back in the day. I would like to purchase the new game although such a short release window I do not currently have the cash and it is going to annoy me losing out on a 25% discount where I will be only buying it for the UK stuff I do not drive the none uk routes often so it will be annoying come Oct/Nov when I do pay I have to pay loads for just one UK route and keep my game updated. Unless they release a UK edition like they did with TSW3.

One thing that annoys me most is I sort my steam libary by most hours played. Every time they re-release a game like this I have to keep scrolling back to the bottom of the list, I wished they could keep it the same so I can see how many hours I have played this game (I am sad like that I suppose)

 

And free TSW4 core would also solve the problem with TSW2 fixes that were left to rot. Have everyone under one up-to-date core, sell DLCs, no rocket science.

 

talking about both bugs and east coastway then its good to mention how the class 377/4 headlight panel doesn't display the headlight colour properly and is broken. but the 377/4 works for the bml version
for some reason it also isolates dra by default i noticed?

 

My theory is, because of the complete codebase rewrite/refactoring of TSW, they probably run into some issues regarding the old codebase and the workings of it, for some probably being the reason that certain components aren't flexible, extensible and/or capable for the new features that were announced that require extensible, flexible components that are able to behave dynamically and are able to be integrated elsewhere, for example, the Scenario Designer 2.0 is supposed to support multiple paths, path chaining, out of bounds AI pathing, and so on - that requires the user scenario component to support multiple tasks that trigger certain events when finished - to support multiple paths and path chaining. The current in-game implementation only supports one task from A to B, and no actual events except starting AI services on time. But since each the current scenario designer implementation depends on timetable managers with different versions, and so on, it looks like the current implementation depends on certain components that does not support, or prevents support for the new features. At least that's how the entire old structure looks like to me.

Probably more accurate and simpler explaination is that the old TSW codebase is probably absolutely ******, a lot of components didn't have extensiblity and flexibility in mind, everything is statically set on start and do not support any action outside of what is defined on start (except the weather but even in user-made scenarios you can only set the variables by yourself cuz game-controlled weather isn't working), probably relicts from TSW 2020 and 2. Services do not even support multiple paths afaik, so after a service is finished, another is started when continuing automatically.

Correct me if im wrong on something

 

Oh spare me. Stop defending terrible business practices.
No one is asking for free stuff, and you know this.
They could've just sold the route and loco pack for the same price and it'd have been a steal for those that would be interested in them, but now they're paywalling a core game update and future content.
If in the future a route or trains comes out that I'd really be interested in and would gladly pay for I would first have to pay for this update and a route I don't care about before I can pay additionally for the content I'm actually interested in.

 

The difference is that people are unhappy with all the bugs in older content which is not fixed in years. The problem is not that people are not willing to pay for we all would like to use our content we bought years ago in TSW 4.

The cycle is always the same, fix some stuff and move on. Port it to the next version, find additional bugs and problems but never return to it. I can still live with a paid core update, but I like to use my stuff and others do as well.

People who bought rush hour two years ago for example are still waiting to get the rush hour feature in all the routes they bought with this package.

 

Agreed.
It's really simple the way I see it.
I have no problem with launching a new, updated and advanced variant of the same game, but if you're gonna do that, the overhaul has to be significant enough to actually justify it, enough to actually feel like a new, different game.
If you can imagine the upgrades as an update on the old game, it's not enough to justify releasing a new game over.

 

Wow, you really feel the need to make a comment everytime I do. You must love me.[Removed - Alex: Language]

 

As I suspected, Volumetric Fog is literally a check box in UE4;

https://dev.epicgames.com/community...EK/unreal-engine-how-to-enable-volumetric-fog

 

DCS World is a great example where the core game is free (even has some free aircraft) and is separate from the DLC.
It can be done..

 

Yes! DCS is the most best example of how it should be done. They are getting back to old stuff all the time to have it on the current level. No excuses, free core updates etc.

Yes that seems to be right. The other question which remains for me is why we still get no FSR2/3 and no DLSS in TSW? Same thing, easy to implement stuff in UE4.

 

Oh yes, I forgot about that. I noticed it more with the 387s, and for a time, I couldn't work out why I couldn't make the train move. I didn't even know it was a feature of the game.

 

As a long time DCS player, careful what you wish for.

If you think DTG are slow at fixing things, you will hate Eagle Dynamics.
They take literally years to fix things. The ground enemy AI has been broken for well over a decade. Performance can often be terrible, and the gameplay is severely lacking.
It's great if you want to just fly the aircraft and learn the systems, but the actual combat? There is a reason people call it "Digital Cockpit Simulator" as a joke.

But there is nothing else like DCS, and flying a high Fidelity F-14 in VR is amazing. So we put up with all the negatives.

 

I think that's true of any game.
My point was about the separation of core and add on.

 

Main DCS problem is the lack of a Dynamic Campaign. That's why since the VR Update I returned to Falcon BMS. But that's off-topic.

The main point here is what sunscreen#8305 says - more seperation. For example (again and again I mention this) no need for 10+ versions of the same loco. Just one version with the current feature set. If you are new to the game you do not know which BR143 is the one with the most features, you do not know which DOSTO Cab car is the most evolved etc. etc.

Currently the more routes you own the more versions of the same stuff do appear. If you then play a scenarion or journey mode on an older route instead of timetable mode where you are able to pick the stuff yourself it is very likely that you do the scenario or journey with outdated content and lacking features. And in the end their is no need for different versions of the same stuff, it is just that DTG somehow packed all this different versions of the rolling stock and locos into the route packs instead of making them "somehow" seperate. Which does not mean sell them all seperately but it is a problem of how the DLC packages for TSW are made, technical self made. For example it would be better to have locos only once in a core pack and the game would check if you have access to it through anything you own instead of packing it into the route dlc's itself.

Have TSW core "free" training center only and for example one or two "legacy" trains like they do with DCS SU-25 and P-51D Mustang (non combat version) if I remember right and have anything else "extra" or something like that. So a buisness model not like DCS but in some ways similair.

 

I know people earlier have added with pretty much exactly what I wanted to say, but in addition to that while sports games are released every year (not that they should be), there is at least a slight justification for it, being the differences in teams. Similarly, F1 and other racing games actually do justify their yearly releases because of the different cars and tracks, at least to a point. TSW doesn't have anything like that, and so the only justifications for yearly releases is money.

DTG's safest way of these yearly upgrades is just to do what they do with Train Simulator. Release the engine upgrades for free and make people pay for the routes. That's what TS has been like for years and it shouldn't be any other way. Plus, it might in the future create a market like TS where old game codes are sold as bundles. For me it's a yearly tradition to buy Train Simulator discounted to get the routes. The discounts for TS are much better than TSW, and it's more likely to appear in bundles. I bought my yearly copy of Train Simulator for £1 in the recent bundle.

At this point I have almost every version of TS in my library; RailWorks (bought for the fictional routes), TS14, TS16 and every release after that.

I wouldn't be surprised if you could already turn it on via Engine.ini tweaks, like you can with ray tracing. I suspect ambient occlusion is still broken though like it was in TSW3.

 

And then they offer a chance to maybe balance your losses by going double or nothing on the "new" version of TSW that will pinkie swear include the promised fixes you didn't get last time around.