Dovetail Direct Live Stream Reaction

"New model", lol. It is literally the same game with a different route bundle.

 

DTG: It's a train game, so, you know, music isn't that big a part --

Ben: Hire me a $%#@! orchestra!!

 

When did they promise to fix known bugs? Did they put that in writing? If they did and you have contrary proof you have the basis for legal action.

 

Like plenty of times through the years?

 

It is not 'literally the same game'. Look up literally.

 

Ah okay, show me an example.

 

No, look them up yourself if you really want to.

It's common fact that fixes have been promised many times. Does "TSW2 Preserved Collection update" rings a bell? Or Peninsula Corridor / Oakville Subdivision fixes for TSW3? Or when they said they are taking a break from new releases to fix bugs, then instead just announced TSW3? The list is endless.

 

I've wached nearly all of them from when I bought the first TSW on Playstation 4. Can't recall the promises though.

I do remember DTG fixing many game breaking bugs and crashes though. Maybe they passed you by.

 

Whats the saying? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

I don't trust a thing they say on streams or forums. Haven't since Rush Hour. I read the roadmap but I take everything with grain of salt. I never believe promises as I found they are more aspirations that can change.

I watch preview streams with music in the background and don't even listen to them anymore.

Perfect example, Dovetail Direct "live" stream looked a little edited and not live.

I still play and have fun and enjoy the game though and to me that is the most important thing. But after being fooled the 2nd time, thats now on you. They are not going to change, haven't in 5 years I've been playing and watching streams.

 

You literally said in a post earlier that you were done with the game and the forum. Yet here you are still throwing a tantrum.

 

It doesn’t take any setting in motion. Just log out.

 

Just waiting to see the mods lock this and all the other TSW4 threads cause both sides are doing nothing but childish bickering now.

 

Well it is a reaction post and he is reacting. So there is that.

But boy if that energy could be used for good perhaps we could finally have a cure for feline aids.

It's the number one killer of cats in the world you know.

Wouldn't that be something.

 

Can you speed up the process somehow.

 

Agree with you that the long (and continuing) wait for TSW2 fixes should not have happened. Nor, especially, should that derail bug bomb have been dropped and the crater left. But to be fair, they didn't "just" announce TSW3; during the three or so months after that promise, they released nearly a dozen patches and no new DLC. TSW3 was in the works from late the previous year per Sam.

 

Why some of you are so attaches to these old DLCs? Can anyone is willing to explain?

For me it is quite simple, DTG stops support previously released content - I stop buying it.

In example I do not own Tharandter Rampe, released for TSW2, as I read reviews it's a very good DLC. But I'm not gonna buy it no matter how good it is because... it lacks TOD4. And that applies to whole TSW2 content I haven't bought to this day.

In regards to TSW3 I might be buying Nidertalbahn DLC and maybe Midland Main Line, the rest I'll skip because it will be lacking these TSW4 'awesome' features.

So, if DTG is ok with loosing some revenue because they stop supporting older DLCs then I'm also fine with it. With their rate of releasing new route roughly every 1.5 month I'm not worry about not having new content to choose from.

And if you have already bought DLC basing on the promises it will be fixed somewhere in the future, well, it was a bad decision. My advice is to consider buying a product (DLC) by the state it is being sold at that precise moment, not by the promises how it will be looking after some undefined time in the future.

 

Because I bought this content when it was newly released? I'm not allowed to expect that stuff that worked in a "legacy add-on" in the original TSW and was ported with bugs two TSW2 and 3 is not fixed? For example the sound of the BR143 is broken since TSW2. So I'm not "attached" to this stuff but I bought it and I would still like to enjoy it.

What is the logic behind this? I enjoy a route, it still has bugs or promised features (Rush Hour for example) which isn't implemted after two years so I'm ok with it and I buy the next route. Same process again, bugged, will never be fixed, so I wait for the next release, bugs, never be fixed, buy next one...???

 

I am going to go back on topic and give my thoughts:
I think TSW4 itself came as no surprise, but by 'eck have they impressed me with the route selection. As I have said as they announced the ECML route (not only was I sitting next to the line) but I must have looked like a mad man to the passengers on a passing train because I was jumping up and down like I did when Forest were promoted to the PL. Really stoked to have the Scotsman coming too, will certainly have some fun down stoke bank. All the annoyance about this section is unwarranted though as it is a lovely section of line which will eventually bring proper intercity driving to the game. I actually think the core additions are much more deserving of a new game than TSW3 but to be honest ECML will be the highlight for me. I think this could be my first ever pre-order! Also nice to have some news on the JT route and a rough time span for the PFR diesel pack. I am going to have a very empty signature though!

 

Nothing that justifies a new game. I can't wait for the bug reports to come in. One massive con.

 

Well, as I watched the stream progress I must admit I was a bit underwhelmed by the info that was coming out and was forming the opinion that I would probably give TS4 a miss. Then they announced free roam and the PC editor and I thought this is a must buy for me. Those two features and the upcoming JT's Blackpool route were enough to convince me to buy.
I know there is a lot off negativity around the fact that they chose to release it in this way, But come on! Three new routes and two locos for 40 Quid? What's not to like? Throw in all the other features and it becomes a no brainer. My pre-order is already in.

 

I'm a little LTTP on this one having only just watched the Direct stream. My 1st thoughts are mixed. I was deep down hoping the TSW4 leaks were unfounded but it appears all we are getting here is a core update disguised as a new product. Secondly this is confirmation we are moving to an annual release rather than the 2yr cycle from previously

I will most probably jump on the TSW4 bandwagon as I am heavily invested in the franchise at this point (Ive been a player since CSX HH beta on PC), so a new release like this will not dissuade me from abandoning TSW

The Good:

Editor - FINALLY ! This one came out of the blue for me and by FAR is the #1 selling point. Many of us thoghht this one was dead as a dodo, especially considering all the dev comments about it over the years. I will be looking forward to seeing what content is created.
I am unsure how this is marketed as a TSW4 feature when it will be a free download from the Epic Store (DOes it require TSW4 ownership to work? Time will tell...)

Scenario Planner 2.0 - Seems to have some nice improvments; but where is the option to fill out a created scenario with AI ? I was sure this would be a feature of 2.0 as it has been hinted at. Having to manually create AI just to get traffic in your scenario is very tedious

Scoring 2.0 - Very nice to see more points awarded for better driving rather than arbitrary pts awarded for stopping. A new medal tier (platinum) looks great

Customised HUD - Finally there is that rolling route display which was a feature in TSC. Not as good as the TSC one, but it is better than nothing

Improved Rain Effects/ Volumetric Fog - Looks great and will provide that extra level of immersion

Free Mode - Appears to be what the God mode on PC previously provided, but nice to have it in there natively

The Bad

Core Routes - These are a little lacklustre for me. Single Loco, minimum stops, minimal layers, boring high speed runs.....pass (but obviously I will have them as part of the purchase)

The Ugly

Why TSW4 ? - This is the elephant in the room for me. All of these features as far as I can tell could have/should have been just an update to TSW3. TSW4 seemingly runs on the same version of UE4 but now we are forced to re-download ALL of our legacy DLC again just for this new product. This is obviously not an issue for the new player but for existing/long term players; this is quite a chore and something we should not have to do every 12mths.

 

Well, despite all the mean and sarcastic comments, might I suggest that you do not burn your boats completely and maybe just take a break from the forum instead.

I, for one, have always valued your input and we seem to have fewer and fewer serious posters these days. I understand where you're coming from, but your continued participation would be valuable.

Please reconsider. If your mind's made up, good luck to you.

 

While there's quite a few things that made me excited, funnily enough, it's one of the 'smaller things' that really made me happy - text fields in the livery editor! At the moment, the livery editor has this horrid bug where it creates little squares everywhere when you add shapes, and since you had to add each letter of a given word or logo individually, this often provoked the bug. Hopefully the bug itself will be fixed, but the ability to add any text you like as one single object will no doubt be of great use to anyone who makes their own liveries, from players just having fun with the editor, to the numerous content creators on the Creators Club who release stuff on a regular basis.

 

I have to admit, I was kind of hoping this would have been more like a Rush Hour with a core update situation instead of TSW4. With that said the improvements to the scenario planner and livery editor look nice. Out of the new routes, Antelope Valley appeals to me the most since my primary interest when it comes to TSW is US passenger content. It's not an instant buy like NYT was for me, but it definitely has my interest.

 

That’s not how I read it. My understanding of the FAQ is there will be no more core updates to the older versions. Otherwise recent releases like the Class 700, PFR and West Rhine become abandoned let alone the older stuff still waiting fixes. However I have posed the question in the FAQ Q&A thread.

 

To be honest, all a bit meh. US limited timetable, Austrian S bahn and odd section of modern ECML leave me a bit cold.

3 new routes and an update for a discounted cost I should imagine. Routes look ok but looking forward more to JT route.

Probably will buy but maybe not a Day 1 thing.

 

I thought tsw4 livestream was very good! I love the new core features and I am soo excited for ECML!! Kinda surprised they didn't introduce gaurd more after experimenting with it on Glossop line but I guess not all the route would be able to have that irl.

 

Yes it's very rare in Germany or Austria nowadays

 

Well, I see it in that way:

• If you bought it being already aware of the existing issues/bugs, but hoping those will be fixed basing on a DTG promise - it's not your best decision as promise is just a promise, could or could not be fulfilled and there will be no consequences to the promising.
  
• If you bought it NOT being aware of the existing issues/bugs, you're entitled to demand the fixes to be provided. But what are the chances for this? If it is regarding some stuff inherited from TSW1 and TSW2, like LIRR or Peninsula Corridor, I would give up on those. In my opinion TSW1/2 and soon TSW3 will simply be abandoned in the state they are and never be fixed to the point us, users, would expect them to be.

Bare in mind that none of the DLC of TSW1/2/3 have been released with issue I would call 'critical', meaning preventing you from using it due to i.e. constant game crash, and only such bugs I think DTG is fixing. Other has lower priority and hence fixes are being delivered if there is time, if not, these are simply left untouched.

Regarding this for me it's a case of the clarity and responsibility:

• If you're are aware of the existing issues/bug/missing content etc. and you decide it will not bother you, go ahead, buy it and enjoy it. You're making an conscious decision here and take the responsibility on you for buying (in more or less way) corrupted product.
• If you're are aware of these issues/bugs etc., decide to buy the corrupted product and then demand from the producer to fix it, well, that's silly to me. Until corrupted product is bought it is under producer responsibility to improve it to sell it. If user is buying corrupted product being fully aware of existing issues --> responsibility for this is taken by the user and demanding then to fix it is just unjustified.

Of course, DTG is not attaching list of bugs to the DLC description, so I have worked my own approach to their products, which is:

1. Not buying DLC on day one (day of release). Check the list of issues reported by other users on this forum.
2. Wait for the patch, compare how many of reported bugs were fixed and which were left untouched. Those are most likely will never be fixed as since TSW3 DTG has change their approach on releasing patches and now, if I'm not mistaken, it is usually one patch per DLC being release about one month later after release fixing as many reported issues as DTG was capable to do in one month time.
3. Now, knowing which bugs will probable never see any fixes, I can consciously decide if that particular DLC is meeting my expectation and decide to buy it or not.

 

I see your argument and the flaw in my opinion is: If everybody does this, nobody will experience the route day one, will not find errors and bugs and you will not have the chance to make your mind up. So, they need people who want to buy it on day one. But getting bad expericences route after route after route the incentive to buy day one shrinks to zero (just like you do it) - So here we are! That why we are upset.

 

Kings X- Posh and Cambridge veers more into ATS territory. His route may be an extension to the ECML we’re getting for all I know.

 

I'd take this a step further in that the ONLY safe way to buy a route is after it's been abandoned, as that is it's final form. If it releases with bugs there is no guarantee they will be fixed and DTG now has a built in "stop hassling us, that route is legacy" every single year so they can forget it and move on. But during that year DTG are also capable of "updating" routes and breaking things that worked before.. and then not going back to fix them (see the above new get out clause).
So the ONLY time you can ever buy a piece of DLC and know that it won't change (i.e. you can live with the existing bugs and it won't get any worse) is to buy it after the next TSW version comes out.
Fortunately for businesses, humans are a weird bunch and FOMO is one of the strongest factors in western society in 2023 so this endless cycle of bugged products, updates that break more things, abandoned DLC and forum complaints about said DLC will probably continue in perpetuity

 

Wasn't any different in TSC, was it?

Still, I enjoyed both products, despite its shortcomings.

 

A bit different.. I could fix it, you could fix it, anyone (with a mind to) could fix it.

 

Well, we're getting an editor now. So, does that mean we can expect you to start developing some awesome third party content for TSW and show DTG how it should be done?

 

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/spirit-of-steam-tsw4.72566/#post-698359

 

Well, aren't you at least gonna fiddle with the editor to see what's possible, considering you pre-ordered TSW4.

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/what-will-make-you-preorder-tsw4.72452/page-3#post-696587

 

I'm quite excited for TSW4 all things considered. Been playing for a long time as well, and I'm especially looking forward to the editor, the Austrian & US routes and the Preston one. ECML not so much but I'll have a look at it anyway. I just hope the Austrian route has lots of layers, the lack of them kind of killed S-Bahn Zentralschweiz for me back in the day. Plus my all time favourite Nahverkehr Dresden is getting an overhaul I was kind of hoping for an extension, but at least it's not being abandoned yet.

 

Hehe, that was a little bit of sarcasm although I was very pleasantly surprised about the editor and it has the potential to be a game changer. However I never pre-order anything, I wait for the dust to settle. My time is too valuable to spend many hours getting a model into the game if the core isn't there, and the current kettle sim in TSW is.. poor. However I will be keeping a close eye on things and if the core is either fixed (or fixable) then I would very much like to get the Manor into TSW and see what we think.

 

Well, joking aside, I don't want to push you, but I've got a few of your quality add-ons for TSC and I'd love to see something similar into TSW. (Especially the steam railmotor was one of my favourites). I no longer play TSC, as I find TSW better, despite its shortcomings. But I realize there may still be plenty of people enjoying TSC, especially fans of steam trains.

 

Yes and especially the Riviera Line in the 50's. If one steam route need to be done in TSW it's the Riviera Line

 

That's quite extreme situation that will most likely never happen, but shrinking sales at day one and coming days would probably be an impulse to DTG to look for a reason and if such would be the quality, take necessary steps to improve it and by that improve the sales again.

But I think there always will be users buying things the day of release, putting themselves in the shoes of bizarre software testers, who are not only not being paid for finding bugs and reporting them, but also paying the company for the chance of doing so.

 

That one’s easy. They’re asking you to pay yet again for content you already own. In the case of SEHS this is now the third or fourth time some people will have ‘paid’ for that route.

I think there’s also a misunderstanding about fixes etc. Older, pre-TSW4 content can and will receive patches and fixes but only if you fork out for TSW4. If you bought that content for TSW3 and don’t pay out for routes you may well not want (under the guise of TSW4) then you are completely humped. TSW3 is now frozen in time, except for a purported patch to the Trenton timetable. Only time will tell if that happens, and given recent history there’s a fair to evens chance you will never see it.

 

Does anyone know what happened to all the stuff from TSG? No release in the next 12 month? DB BR420 with TSW5?

 

Maik answered in another thread that it's probably just caution on DTG's side to not commit to a date, and that he's working on the 420 at full force.

 

Thank you fceschmidt !

 

Because one of TSW's great strengths is that it's a whole collection, not routes in silo. It's at its best when addons improve each other.

 

Thanks for your response Maik. Really appreciate clearing it up. Even so, during that time it has always been on the road map so why would they change that now?
Either way, thanks again for your reply and good luck on finishing up! ☺️

 

Because it would have appeared on a Roadmap called "TSW3" but it will be never released for TSW3.