Tsw 4 Editor - Important Dev Questions

I am very excited to see that an Editor is finally being officially released. I have a few questions though in the areas of development, the process of creating, building and publishing content, and in the general areas of software/game development - coding, debugging, etc.

1. Will the TSW 4 Editor also support TSW 3? If so, are there any limitations?
2. If yes to question 1, will the Editor be available to the public for free?
3. What types of content can be created and modified with the Editor? Will it be possible to edit existing timetables, scenarios, routes, train configurations, and so on? What limitations exist for each type of content, for both existing and new content?
4. What about the base game content? Can the Editor be used to access, use, modify, or even create content that is part of the base game, such as the TOD system or the menu functionality?
5. What is the main "crafting tool" of the Editor? In other words, how will users create content with the Editor? Will it be possible to use code (C++/C#), a graphical user interface (GUI) with WYSIWYG designers, wizards, visual programming (like Scratch), scripting, or a combination of these methods?
6. What features, functionality, and limitations will be available in the Editor on the day of release?
7. What features and functionality can be added to the Editor in the future, and which limitations can be lifted in the future?
8. How will the Editor support the entire development process of content? This includes the ability to:
   • Live-edit content while the game is running, so that changes are reflected in real time.
   • Run a development version of the game inside the Editor, so that users can test their content without having to build and deploy it to the game.
   • Debug and test content using a variety of tools, such as a debug version of the game or a standalone debugger.
   • Manage the development and release of content, such as packaging and distributing mods.

Finally, I have a question about the relationship between the TSW 4 Editor and the Unreal Engine Editor. Is the TSW 4 Editor an extension of the Unreal Engine Editor, or is it a full derivation of the UE Editor?

I apologize for the length of this thread, but there is currently very little information available about the TSW 4 Editor.

 

My main concern is documentation. They have told us in the past how challenging it is to use, so without a decent manual or wiki we will be floundering around in the dark.

 

Yeah if the docs are the absolute minimum or just flat out non existant, and the Editor is provided as-is without Help either on UI components or as or inside the Editor Help tool, and the source code does not contain annotations/help data on important functions, classes and etc. - then it will take ages to actually create anything usable that involves actually creating content, I already have issues understanding and learning the GUI based designers for content like timetables on the unofficial TSW editor, especially because viewing, changing or using some components is not possible at all despite it being a important part of another component because I don't know what it contains, how to use it and where to be used, what it's requirements are etc. That will be very problematic especially if the names of properties and methods and classes do not say what it does, what the value should be, what it accepts and returns, where it's used, and if the context is sparse then well have fun having to disassemble the game or Editor (if they do not provide the source, cuz you can, it's a feature of UE, you can also choose what to provide the source for and what not, etc) cuz that takes ages and a double doubledecker traction of trains- load of learning and analyzing.

I am really curious on what the Editor will be with the features and content on release. I do however expect limited functionality, I am not sure on how bad it will be, but maybe it's a sanitized version of the full internal editor instead of a seperate version

 

Most of the question were answered already. Others will be answered in the UE4 documentation itself. It's at least a full fledged UE4 editor with additional plugins for proprietary systems like track laying. But the overall workflow is UE4 as always. And as we developers have to dig deep sometimes to get something done, you will need too. Creating a manual would be just tooooo much. I presume that DTG will deliver some example assets and some manual stuff for basic setup. If you want to go further you have the same steep way in front of you as all developers.

 

Yes it will be interesting to see how it will function in reality. I'm interested to see how Simugraph works in reality and am curious to see if we will be able to view an example blueprint for one of the locos to get a flavour of how to put one together. It would be great to see some guides put together and maybe have a glimpse into the standards that dovetail use themselves to produce content in house. I'm sure there must be some form of content guidelines provided to 3rd party developers.

I can see that editing routes will be interesting especially if we will be able to update current routes with custom made assets, really interesting. Also I do wonder if for example if like UE4/5 vanila you would be able to use for example megascans assets (perhaps sparingly) but that could be another complex issue.

Either way I'm really excited to give it a go and try get some content made!

 

Yes but if you write something that can be used or is supposed to be used externally by others, then you should at least add help metadata on non-internal, accessible code so that the Editor can provide what you need to know and what X does and what Y is while coding - Visual Studio IntelliSense, and a compact glance of the most important features and APIs as a doc which would be helpful for newbies. I mean - that's common practice if you write libraries, extension interfaces, etc., to be externally used by the public.

 

We'll see. I have no idea what exists at the moment for customers that want to dig into the editor. I only know what exists for me as 3rd and 2nd party. Lots of stuff does have tool-tips to help you with the parameters. VS is not a thing in the Editor for Users as you can't inject C++ code with plugins (DLC) (That's not allowed or working any well). It's all Blueprint stuff at least. Visual node based coding (noodling). If you want to know what a node does, try it They not hiding but they not coming with a 100 page manual per node. All i can state is, that for me, who does this stuff for TSC/TSW since a long time, it's still hard to understand and get results in a reasonable timescale. If you reall want to get results fast, you need a team of people where each has a specialised talent (setup, audio, simugraph, artwork....)

 

Yes I can imagine it would be a bit much for one person to produce an entire loco. But a start at everyone having access to the same tools can only be a good thing. Hopefully we can provide feedback and help towards making more guidlines etc. It is in everyones interest to bring new content to the game and hopefully the start of more specialised communities more akin to TSC. There is still so so much potential with TSW

 

So basically Maik Goltz we are saying Trainz Surveyor with Transdem is a child’s toy by comparison?!

 

I didn't say or expected a 1000 page wiki for every single thing you can do - of course you can't especially for advanced and extensive software like the Editor that was internal only for a long time, it's only expected and good practice to have at least a simple API doc for code approaches - but since you said coding isn't supported and allowed, that point is not applicable anymore.

Well then I hope that there is enough Blueprint support and implementation in the Editor for the most popular use cases like custom Timetables, Scenarios, Formations etc.

 

That stuff is absolutely doable in full flavour as you might wish. Timetabels are a bit of a pain (especially 24h timetables) but you can do the same as DTG can do. It's also quite easy at least, compared to the other stuff like making trains or a route. Scenarios are just timetables with objectives around (that stuff can go bit further since it can manipulate the world/trains if its set up for being manipulated). Creating new formations is the easiest thing.

 

You can already find endless tutorials of the UE4 editor by typing UE4 tutorial to Youtube.

 

I do not mean the base UE things, I mean the TSW UE things.

 

I am surprised the editor isn't discussed more in here, and that DTG isn't promoting it more. I can only imagine the great things some people working together in the community could achieve.

 

When you say we are not able to edit existing content, does this include train configurations? I suppose we are not able to edit different aspects of trains and change things ourselves?

 

Honestly. Most people will open it, look at it, close it, delete it

Of course, there are the ones who really interested in creating content no matter how complicated it is. That what the editor is for and those people might also get hired by DTG at some point to do the big stuff with the team. Doing a route or a train alone as some with TSC, is probably not going to happen at all. There is just way to much to cope with. Small teams are needed for creating good working content for such a game.

 

Thanks for the clarification Matt! Sounds super interesting and a lot to sink our teeth into. Really looking forward to see what the possibilities are.

 

This might be going over my head, but to clarify.

At release, you won't be able to for example:
1. Extend existing routes with new track?
2. Place assets in existing routes like more houses/trees/clutter?

 

That seems fair, so currently it's a technical limitation to edit existing routes. But you're not against it in principle, and if an option to enable it came about you'd want to attempt it?

 

So, if I try to build a route with track, signal, trains and other things from another route, for example DRA, this is possible?
Or I need to build everything from scratch?

 

Interesting info, thanks Matt

Can I get a little clarification

So for example, can you
Load an existing route and
1) move the bushes
2) add additional existing assets (like bushes or buildings)
3) extend the track and add extra signalling

4) Can you start with a "blank" route and build using assets from existing routes you've purchased, ala TSC style, or does everything have to be made from scratch (even track) and then wired into TSW blueprints?

 

Alright, thanks Matt.

Slightly off topic, but I’m just wondering, will the updated OHLE rendering for TSW4 also apply to the older routes, or just TSW4 routes?

 

Perfect, thanks DTG Matt
Exciting times ahead

 

Thanks I was just about to ask that Matt.

Well can it be worse than the DRS editor with nodes everywhere and no terrain importer? Hopefully not.

Even if we don't get detailed documentation, a summary of workflow would be useful.
For example in Trainz Surveyor it usually goes:
Extract terrain and map overlays in Transdem and import the barebones route (or create basemaps for a model railway).
Lay track, roads, most of the infrastructure such as bridges and tunnels.
Close up scenery.
Distant scenery.
Clutter and fine detail.
Tidy up and snagging.
Scenarios/sessions then testing, lots of it.
Publish and be darned.

Edit: Oh I forgot one thing... Get disillusioned/distracted and send the whole thing off to the Recycle Bin, "I'll build the Bermuda or St Kitts Railway instead!"

 

Looking forward to that Manor

 

FWIW, Humble Bundle frequently puts out bundles relating to UE game development--books, object collections, and such. Currently they apply to UE5, and the courses will be general rather than focused on working with a railroad sim, but some may find a generous pile of content for less than $25 to be worth rolling the dice on.

Does anyone know if objects made for UE5 can still be used with UE4's editor, or not, or sometimes maybe?

 

can console players play what is made on pc am guessing its no but as its pc only

 

thats intresting thanks matt so maybe in the futre

 

Drat! I was hoping to enable some of the "out of bounds" tracks for alternative scenarios. e.g. the sidings on RSN that are accessed through the combined road/rail tunnel...

 

Hopefully.

 

Thanks! Didn't know about the marketplace; this is completely new to me, so I'm just looking with a dreamer's eyes at this point. Maybe a collection of useful links can be posted when the editor releases?

But yikes, collecting stuff in case it might be useful sometime=uh oh.

 

What I wonder about most, to put things into context. If anyone could actually answer this for me, I'd be grateful, including from people from DTG themselves.

For context, I am desperate for quality Dutch content, like how TS20xx had Christrains + community routes like "'T Hart van Nederland" with assets from a minor few payware things, and a lot of community made assets and signalling through CoHa.

Does the editor provide these kinds of groups the resources to finally make something like the Hart van Nederland project to finally move over to Train Sim World?

And what about people like Christrains whose trains are payware and generally better than any "official" trains provided in TS20xx.
He has in the past, as I recall, expressed interest in making TSW content, but he's only a rolling stock creator, and he complained about not having the resources, specifically the editor, to make content for TSW, as well as if I recall (don't quote me on this), not being satisfied with the kind of partnership DTG could offer for him to make 3rd party content, at that moment in time.

Does the editor also come with the proper infrastructure for people like Christrains to finally work his magic as a rolling stock creator in TSW? Specifically, on his terms. (meaning to say, not for free)

 

Alright, clear enough. Thank you.

To elaborate on this a little bit though. Would the editor actually provide the tools for more in depth development? Or are we still talking quite surface level?
Specifically, things like safety systems. If you were to make a route and train for that route that is not like what is already known to the game in its current form, would the editor offer the tools to create that too?

I do have a suspicion the answer is yes. But I'm asking for confirmation anyway as the idea of an editor I have in my head for reference is basically just the basic route editor present in TS20xx.

 

So, it will be possible for a mad genius to make his own loco from scratch? Or is Simugraph proprietary and locked off?

 

Simple answer, its the full editor. Same as the inhouse DTG editor. Except the fact that it can load (not edit) cocked content (routes and trains) and does not come with any source files.

If you know how to make a loco or a route you can make a loco or a route or whatever you want to create. If its only a simple asset or a full blown route with trains. "Just" do it.

 

From what I understand we'll have access to the components for Simugraph - i.e. you can attach a power source to a motor to a wheel set by adding the components, setting their values and connecting them together - what you won't be able to do is author your own components, so you can't create systems from scratch

 

Correct. If you can do it you are free to do it. And no, you can't add core components.

 

Well, I dont fall into the first category.
I know for sure I fall into the Second group you present here.

 

So to summarize. You would be able to make a route and train that looks like whatever you want it to look like and have the assets look like however you want them to look like from the visual side of things.
You would be able create a train that looks like however you want it to look like, and have it have the driving behavior however you want it to.

You are however NOT able to make a custom beacon for a new kind of safety system, or the means for that train to translate that signal in a way that is not already present in the game currently.

Do I have that right?

 

Yes, basically all that. Of course all in the range of what the engine gives. You can't do the impossible things magically.

Not really sure about that. A new DSD or SIFA would be no problem is guess as it does not need track side components. A new track related safety system could be hard to create without access to the core source. But again, not sure. Something you would need to try out.

 

I hope you dont mean Specific Overhead Masts, Signals, New tracks (with Different Gauge etc) Or New Bogies for those gauges.

 

Nope, these are all things you can create. Signals might be bit complex but you could do it.