Don't want to go too far OT but I am asking myself that question a lot. Got into the TSW universe cause I was playing on PlayStation and used PC only for work. Had I known that TSC would be much better for my personal (!) preferences, e.g. length of routes, variety of trains, busy routes etc., that might have been different.
Yeah so, I this is a problematic idea for a few reasons, the entirely I shall not get into as that has a chance of turning quite political and off topic. But in short, this idea of "you tell them what's it worth with your wallet" is bs. If only examplified by how what €35 (e.g.) means to two people is not necessarily the same. To someone who has €50,- to spend on themselves at the end of every month, it's definitely not worth the same as to someone who has €500,- to spend on themselves at the end of every month. The myth of a free market democracy where you vote with your wallet is just that... A myth
Also worth noting... TSW3's peak was less than both TSW1 and 2, and TSW4 will almost certainly continue this trend.
I personally would like to see TSC and TSW to be totally different games for different audiences. Maybe TSC needs a paid core update to peak some interest again (sarcasm)
Yeah. For me the thing about TSW is that it was exactly what I was looking for. A game where you are the driver and not the train. Where you can actually walk around and push buttons instead of awkwardly moving your camera at approximate head height. Get in the train, just take a seat. Get into the cab just like a real driver would. And while I'm still holding out for Japan and the Netherlands. German trains are still somewhat close though still different. And I actually feel like a driver. Especially with the timetables instead of just quickdrive. Which means you actually drive a service and end it too in real traffic. I can't go back to TS20xx I feel like, but at least it has quality Dutch and Japanese content.
That's not a lot of players (for both games) No wonder they are building so heavily on TSW. sure put them next to Playstation maybe?
I would bet on it that's 100% because TSC is more flexible and actually encourages 3rd party content instead of stifling it as well as the logical fact that once you have the core gain, you just have it.
Well considering that there is really no alternative for console players, of course the numbers would be higher than pc. DTG get most sales from consoles. One of the reasons why Gen 8 consoles haven't been dropped for instance
I play both. They are different. Why limit yourself to only one train simulator? I actually think TSC is better if you don’t mind spending money on AP packs etc. I’ve built a huge collection of DLC over 14 years and can drive long routes and have all the correct ai traffic it’s just not quite as nice to look at. Some of the content creators on ATS are doing fantastic work and a lot of it is free. To get back on topic. I also really enjoy TSW it’s prettier and German Safely Systems are really well done and if you prefer timetables to scenarios then it’s really good for that. Personally though, I have a lot of frustration with DTG, I know I’m in the minority, but I really like Rapid Transit and it’s been broken for the entire lifetime of TSW3 - Properly broken as in you can’t drive one of the trains. So I can see that being TSW4 only. For sure I will get TSW4 as I really want 2 of the routes and the Vectron so the price is ok. I can wait though, I’m in no hurry.
Your wish is my command. TSW3: Over the last three months, TSW3 started off usually south of 1000 concurrent players, this then shot up to ~1500 after the bundle. However this injection of interest seems to be over as now the game is once again under 1000 players. Train Simulator: Train Simulator's player count is very consistent. Usually slightly lower than 1500 players with occasional jumps upwards of it. The states amount is that each third of the total playerbase is on each platform. However, this is based on a value given years ago (TSW2 days I believe) and does not include the PS5/Series S/X versions. It is safe to assume TSW's main market is console players for the reason you explain, but based on the data PC players are unconvinced.
its amazing how tsc has been consistent over the years with its player amount i wish tsw would improve to be better than tsc when it comes to content
I remember reading quite a while ago that TSC does quite well in terms of numbers. At the time(s) it generally had more concurrent players than TSWX. However this was only considering PC. (Please correct me if anyone knows the exact figures!!) Including console then TSW definite does do better, but I think its pretty decent considering the difference in age and gameplay styles. I do enjoy TSW2 as I have started to get into it again, however I am a sucker for creativity and TSC does that in a nicer manner for me. :P
That's why TSW needs to be catered to consoles. This "new game" thing is a way for TSW to survive on consoles stores. It's yearly repeated sales and a spot on the "new game" page. Console players are bombarded with new blockbusters almost every month and the attention span is way shorter. This month we are hooked to this, next month hooked to that. "Oh new TSW, yeah I was hooked to that a year ago let's buy it again" DLC's don't get that much attention in stores unless you have are a blockbuster game.
Maybe TSC will outlive TSW. Maybe that is why they are finally going back and redoing the core of TSC and trying to modernise it. Maybe that is why we are now getting an editor for TSW and a consist editor. Maybe they know....
To be fair TS' player count has declined too, but at a much slower rate. Impressively, TS' peak was years after it came out. SteamDB's early data wasn't that good (and no, I don't know why it marked TS' release as being in 2015 despite the game being out for six years at that point) so take the data prior to 2011 with a grain of salt. However, it's always been fluctuating significantly, with the exception of the last two years. I'd assume TSW played a part in that, but based on TSW3's data I'm not so sure. You can see here TSW3's player numbers dropped very quickly after launch. I don't know what happened in April that revived the game, but that and the bundle have the game bursts of interest. However, after each there has been a decrease in the playercount. TSW4's launch will most likely have the same pattern as the last two games - a high playercount directly at launch, followed be a steep decline. However, like TSW3 as I mentioned earlier the launch peak will likely be lower than past games based on the existing pattern and the reaction to the new releases becoming more negative every single time. It's also worth noting that while the data for consoles does exist, it is not publicly accessible. Therefore the data is based solely on Steam player numbers which may not accurately reflect other platforms - although I doubt they're much better.
That's a lot of maybes for a company that is being accused here of so many broken promises. So as I understand it correctly. There were no paid upgrades and now TSC needs to be modernised? And this makes TSC the successful model?
the april spike was probably because of alot of big routes got released, i think nyt was out around then what does it compare to when tsw2 was big though? did tsw3 get more players?
Yes now you are understanding, even huge core upgrades, still no additional cost unless you want to buy more content to play.
it does... if dovetail is still updating tsc after so long of its model and its not being killed or dying. plus the tsc modernization is probably because its old, nothing to do with the model
But I would turn your attention to Assetto Corsa Competizione. It's not really a blockbuster game. It isn't perfect by any means, but they did release a current Gen upgrade for free and they sell new liveries and cars as dlc packs Also that game goes on sale quite often. It may not have been the best analogy, but if they want to entice console players, then DTG needs to market the game better. May I remind you that tsw2020, tsw2 and tsw3 was on Xbox Gamepass which has millions of subscribers. I remember using gamepass to discover games like Yakuza and A Plague Tale. A new paid release isn't the answer and doesn't have to be the answer to get new players in. Look at MSFS. There isn't a paid re-release of that game and the dlc's go on sale quite often. It's a model that does work. I think that not having tsw4 on gamepass won't benefit DTG in the long term since new players probably won't be introduced to the product. There were many players that said they came to tsw because of gamepass alone. A paid re-release and isn't the answer. There are other ways that work. I don’t see how you can't understand that
It’s over 14 years old has way more content and a hell of a lot less stutters despite running on a single processor core. I’m really happy they are still supporting it at all. If they really do get multi core and and a more modern graphics api working, it will improve it massively. It will probably also be a free update.
I would point out that TSC numbers peaked in 2014, long before TSW came out. Also that TSW1/2 numbers on Steam only represent about 1/3 of the user base, and for 2RH/3 less than that with the addition of Epic. Further note that TSW2's peak just happened to come at the time of the COVID lockdowns: no coincidence.
I really need to be more fluent in English because I don't get why you would call that a successful model. I should have added a sarcasm tag. I don't want a game laying around so long that hasn't been modernised. You know how limited the disk space of a console is? IF TSC was on consoles it would not be taking my disk space that long. Look at the graphics? Come on. I bought a PS5 and I'm gonna download TSC? I'm just trying to imagine it and I can't. I do get how this works on PC. I totally not wanna ridicule TSC or the TSC model but I'm just trying to imagine TSC in a console world.
I'm not sure how accurate that is. I remember playing Burnout Paradise and Gran Turismo 6 online (back in the good old days) and the games were popular right until the servers were shut down. I played in the last few months of GT6 and I'd get frequent full lobbies; I can't remember how BP was back in the day - although sadly the remaster killed the online community that was built up. That said I don't know how many of those players were new, so sales numbers could be affected as you say. Other than the upgrade from Rail Simulator to Train Simulator, which was a jump between publishers and developers, TS has never had a paid upgrade like TSW. This is TSW2. I think we can ignore the current player numbers for obvious reasons, but the launch peak was enormous, followed by an extreme decrease in player counts. Player counts actually slightly increased on average right until TSW3 launched and killed the game off. The average player count was roughly the same as TSW3 is now. I thought I'd do TSW1 as well. I cut off the end in this screenshot. TSW1 is a bit weird compared to the other games as it didn't have a normal release. I assume the start date is when CSX Heavy Haul was released, and I'm not surprised at the peak as it was the very first version of the new game, set to be TS' replacement. However, taking that out of the picture let's go from TSW1's 'true' launch, which included GWE, RT and NEC-NY, and on PC CSX Heavy Haul. After this point in 2018 the player counts actually increased. While two of the top three peaks for TSW1 were in 2017, the last was in 2020, which is impressive. Train Simulator was never designed to be a console game, and you're right in saying it wouldn't work on it even if they magically got the code to run on it.
TSW3 had major changes to weather and lighting, added the Training Center, and numerous other changes. Some like to call them variations of "a few minor tweaks" to the core that could have been patched in, but I think the devs who spent the better part of a year working on it would beg to differ. Now some people are pretending that all the new additions to TSW4 are minor changes that could have been patched in. The fact that they think they have to heavily downplay the changes instead of honestly acknowledging them to make their point tells me that they themselves don't believe the point they're trying to make. It's after-the-fact hyperbole in service of prerecorded complaints.
the graphics have nothing to do with the model but because it was released ages before tsw on a different engine, how does the tsw model improve anything other than locking it behind a paywall?
Dynamic weather, a feature already in unreal engine. Heck other ganes have had Dynamic weather for years. Volumetric Clouds, a feature already in unreal engine, Volumetric Fog is literally a checkbox in the Unreal Engine. It wasn't like they upgraded the engine. It didn't justify a paid update and these updated features which are again mere updates to features already in the game like scenario/livery designer don't justify a paid update again
Console stores have changed. DTG was one of the early birds smaller developers bringing a simulator to console. Nowadays it's filled with simulators. A lot of LOVE as well. Besides racing other simulators were a rare breed. Today it's like every game developer wants a game on console. TSW is way ahead of most simulators on console. So I think the version thing is a good strategy to stand out in stores.
I think that "bulge" beginning in late summer 2019 represents the launch of TSW2020, which is counted as a version of TSW1.
Bar the last sentence you're probably right. Granted (train) simulators have been on consoles for a long time particularly in Japan. I believe the PS4 and Xbox One moving to x86 probably helped make it more approachable, even though Farming Simulator had a PS3 version but that's besides the point. Yes, that's probably what it was, although I wasn't sure when TSW2020 actually launched.
Conversation about GT7/polyphony started via another poster, as an example of a good studio (lmao). GT7 is a shell of what the series used to be. You need to grind just to be able to sell cars. Sale prices are hugely devalued compared to previous GT games. GT1 had qualifying, GT7 couldn’t even manage to put that in the game. Every race is start at the rear and chase the carrot. Grinding wouldn’t be bad if they’d fix the AI so that they wouldn’t need to use this gimmick. Previous GT’s had offline racing league style modes. GT7 couldn’t even manage that. There used to be reasons to play other than the grinding loop, because racing was actually fun. Anyway, I just get a kick out of people who want to throw a tantrum and call everyone who enjoys the game a “fanboy”, but then these same people are waxing poetic about how great Polyphony is (lmao) or how they’re going to move on to bug riddled SimRail (double lmao) or whatever. See you all on tsw4 in a month
I think its slightly declining because many creators have left TS for Train Sim Word. Rivet, TSG etc... there is a lot less content coming out. With UK beeing the big exception and still going strong with Just Trains, Armstrong Powerhouse and ATS releasing stuff. DTG has stated many times: Train Sim Classic is going nowhere... and I see it the same way. I´m buildung routes on there and thats why it still its number one for me.
No, but neither will they refuse to fix any known defects or issues it may have once the new version is released. They're called recalls and are repaired for free.
It was the same when TSW2 was released. The same again 2 years later when TSW3 was released. The same again 12 months later now TSW4 has been announced. It will no doubt be the same in 12 months time when TSW5 comes. Same arguments, same complaints and same justifications.
If I release and sell a car that has issues out-of-the-box, promise to fix them, release the next version of the car advertising features and fixes, then postpone it sometime in the future, and then again release a successor without delivering any of the promised fixes and features and lock them to the new model AND REQUIRE additional fees to get them despite being there since the FIRST launch, despite promising fixes at no additional cost - then I would have a huge class action lawsuit and criminal charges.
I wonder what the internal politics of DTG are like. I assume that there's a disconnect between those actually doing the pretty amazing work of creating and those coming up with marketing and strategic choices. If there is, morale must be tanking. I think its worth bearing that in mind and perhaps being a bit more specific in who and what is addressed. Its not worth losing heartbeats over.
I'll field this one. Yes it is. I only ever buy DLC in a sale as I can't justify spending £30 on a train route. Everyones situations are different though.
Thst may be your experience but for me it's riddled with bugs on PS5 and Series X. Some routes are a stuttering mess on PS5, SEHS included. I can make the game hard crash on both console when I want because I know what causes it. I can show AI spads on certain routes, still not fixed and never will be. Multiple services that cannot be completed or hard crash on loading. Light baking problems caused by LOD4. Red tail lights that over power everything. Sure the core German route that launched with TSW3 has broken signaling still to this day and thst is now confirmed never to be fixed. Can you imagine what will be broken on launch in TSW4 and again never be fixed. Things us paying play testers will find in 15mins. Basically DTG are admitting without saying they can't fix TSW3s problems. At least they admitted they could not fix TSW2 and had to start again with TSW3 when they launched it. I'd rather pay 60 or whatever euro to just get TSW3 fixed without adding any more content.
This is normal business. Also normal is that marketing always wins in the end for better or worse. And possibly the ultimate truth of business, also for better or worse, is that if you prioritize the desires of the creatives over the business-savvy people who know and understand the rules, you will not survive long.
Here's where I am. I won't be buying it just yet for a couple of reasons I've only just bought TSW3 a few months ago I've got loads of DLC's, but the biggest reason is I play on the Steamdeck and there's no mention of it being working on the Steamdeck. TSW3 is listed as unsupported on the Steamdeck but it works flawlessly.
Absolutely, although my post was mainly of concern for the well being of the hard working and likely hamstrung employees..
I'd argue they are pretty minor though, especially on console. You essentially have a different HUD, a pause function and a couple of arts and crafts editors. There is no overhaul of the engine, graphics or performance (at least significant) and the game will likely look and play exactly the same. I also think people understood why TSW3 happened and there was at least a 2 year gap between the releases. I have barely sunk my teeth into TSW3 yet really and now i'm being asked to pay for an update, which I doubt i'll be doing as I have no interest at all in the 3 routes released (just my preference) It is very frustrating to hear as well that there is a big patch for legacy content IF you have TSW4. It is all a bit meh for me to be honest.
if you wait till winter you might find a sale around christmas, i did that for tsw3 and saved alot of money. there might be better bundles with better offers after launch too
What makes a good route for those who say not to be interested in the routes? I'm not that knowledgable in routes around the world so a description is better than a route name. Just wondering what the offering would be. Would I enjoy it or would I have been throwing tomatoes at DTG if they announced it? I have a suspicion it would all be freight, steam or the most obscure vintage routes
