Enough Is Enough!!!

Agreed. I mainly play TSC still because at least it has Dutch and Japanese content. If those got ported over to TSW, I would move over for those too.

As I said, the only things TSC still had over TSW, from a gameplay perspective were freeroam mode and the editor.
Now that they're going over to TSW, it's as far as I'm considered over for TSC. Not that I wouldn't still play it for the memories and the community content that still exists, but it's literally from the year I went to 1st year high school, and I'm 28 now.

All love to TSC, but it's also important to know when to let go of things.
Apparantly DTG is pretty bad at that, cause 1 year is too short and 14 years is too long.

 

Well.. it's not because it's old, it's because it's completely open source, whereas TSW isn't. TSW is hardly new .
I can't say gameplay is superior in TSW at all. It's nowhere near as realistic a rail simulator as TSC. Signalling, driving...all nowhere near as accurate. TSW is more of a game than a simulator. As for graphics... there are addons to address that. Just seems to me that people do nothing but complain about TSW, but won't use a simulator that's vastly superior, just because it uses an older graphics engine.
Oh well... Just a thought, as people seem to do nothing but complain about TSW as far as I can tell.

 

For me, where TSC has an advantage is that there are the resources to easier recreate the past. I do think you need the enhancements and reshade to use it alongside TSW though as from its default settings you really notice the difference.

I uninstalled it recently but due to the lack of older content in TSW, I reinstalled it and the North Wales coast route and am currently slowly recreating the 1995 WTT so I will amost have a TSW service mode, mainly using the excellent AP stuff as again the more basic TSC trains now do feel just that. If this route ever comes to TSW it would almost certainly be in the modern period. So for me TSC still has a place. I am going to work on doing the same for a GWR steam route next.

I don't think I could go back to just TSC though.

 

Graphics addons don't get you even close to TSW. As for Driving being more accurate in TSC? Again, no.

 

Such a generic and schill statement. If a person has to purchase TSW4 to get updates, bug fixes, etc that were never released in TSW3, then what is that called? True they can't force anyone to purchase but this is obviously a money grabbing tactic. I doubt TSW4 will be any different than prior releases in regard to bugs never being fixed, and legit issues by the community members never being responded too. I agree with Excelsior on this topic and like him, I'm done with DTG as well.

 

Lot of people talk about having to buy TSW4 to receive future updates. I like how y'all believe there will be any.

P.S. on an off-topic note looking at your avatar, shouldn't the W be also highlighted? NRQW?

 

Finally! My favourite TSW YouTuber's TSW 4 reaction video is online. The guy hates almost every route of TSW but for me he is the real ambassador of TSW. I always know what I'm buying because of him and doesn't sell me any LOVE. But because of his videos I also have a brief look of how TSW routes look in TSC and I'll take the TSW's version over the TSC routes every time. I know it's not the ambassador DTG is looking for but to me it's always the most amusing way to get to know TSW routes. And yes also this time he made me buy TSW stuff. I preordered TSW4 Deluxe now that I'm fully informed of what to expect.

If you haven't watched his videos you should. It's like the entire forum bundled into one person

 

On what do you base this accuracy? Signalling isn't that accurate. Neither are other details like TPWS operation at stations where it's implemented. Level of cab detail when it comes to controls is nowhere near the level of AP products for TSC. Taking the 37 as an example, how is this....


More accurate than this?


There's no working GSM-R, or TPWS. The textures are awful. It just doesn't look anywhere near as real. The sounds are not as good, and the driving experience is not even close. There's no details like field divert in the power delivery, no change in horn sounds from end to end.. there's a ton of detail not included, and I'm sorry, it doesn't drive anywhere near like the real thing does. Not wanting to start an argument, but I'm just not seeing what your opinion is based upon. I know this is a TSW forum, and not a TSC forum, so I expect a little bias, just as you will get in the TSC forum towards TSC, but... genuinely not seeing the greater realism in the TSW3 version. Unless of course, the class 37 for TSW is particularly bad, and not representative of TSW.
I'm all for progress of course, but I'm just not seeing what advantage TSW will give. I only mentioned TSC because the guy I replied to seemed to have nothing but complaints about it, so suggested TSC... only to be met with incredulity that I should mention such an old, outdated, awful train sim LOL. It's as if I'm using a different sim, as I'm seeing far more accuracy in TSC, both in routes, signalling, controls, sound and driving experience.

 

Now compare two trains made by DTG. Like the 395 for example. The handling, and the physics are much better in TSW, the 37 is an outlier for TSC, because it's made by AP. The overall standard of trains in TSW is significantly better than in TSC.

 

So you are basing the realism of the sim on only DTG content? That seems a bit silly when there's other content available. Why would you do that? The overall standard of trains is not significantly better. You're just ignoring the better stuff because it's not published by DTG. That's just... weird. So... if AP developed content for TSW that was better than the DTG stuff, would you ignore that as well? No... of course you wouldn't. You'd be using it to demonstrate how good TSW is
I expected bias in here, sure... but.... LOL.

 

Frankly, the routes are a genuine critique I have for TSW a lot of the times.
There are a few that do it right, but I hate how most (passenger) routes go from a main station to some random station in the middle of nowhere that's not at all a realistic end of the line.
For some freight routes I get it because you can't reasonably expect a 500km route or something like that, and sure, some services go past your larger principle station. But as a passenger driver, you should have services where you realistically get in and startup, and at the end, have to shut down the cab. Now you start in your seat, close to being ready, and then the endpoint is of the route you don't have to shut down the cab as the service just continues.
I wanna have to change ends, start up dark cabs, shutdown cabs! That's part of what TSW had the potential of doing that TSC can never do (non active cabs aren't simulated except for some overly engineered cabs from very specific 3rd party devs, and even then)

 

You picked probably the single best train for TSC, and compared it to one of the oldest/worst modeled trains in TSW. If you want to talk Bias, we can talk about yours.
I'm talking about the products OVERALL, not specific outliers. TSW ON THE WHOLE, has better train modelling than TSC does.

If you like TSC, that's fine. Nobody is saying you can't play and enjoy it, it's good for what it is. But it's objectively outdated compared to TSW as a whole package, that's simply a fact.

 

I know it's genuine critique. I like his unbiased critique. But I also know this guy is way more obsessed with trains than me. His video's always lower my expectations which makes the routes better once I try it.

 

I’m done with TSC. I’ve sold part of my soul to AP, JT, ATS, just to have decent stock and most has been little used. Although more variety of stock is available, most realistic scenarios require spending a small fortune on various add-ons. No 24h timetables, no journey mode, no more.

 

"Some of the default TSC trains" is doing a lot of work there. There are good modern UK trains for TSC made by developers other than AP.

 

Also this. The sheer cost of TSC is mind boggling. Scenarios almost always require you to own Hundreds of £s worth of content to properly use them.

 

I've almost forgotten the cost price of TSC! What does TSC cost? I'm a collector. Once I go in I fully go in. Let's say I started with TSC and have now bought every DLC. What would that have cost me?

 

Hope you took out a mortgage. The AP enhancement packs and rolling stock alone are going to cost you hundreds of $/£s. That's not even including any routes.

 

It makes TSW3 the smallest iteration of the game; other than the CSX Heavy Hall prototype - with the least amount of new content. I wonder how TSW4 will be looking next summer.

 

Imagine you just bought TSW3 last week or so and you’re new to the franchise. That now means the same person is effectively buying the same game again just so they can continue to receive updates. How can DTG justify that? It’s absolutely indefensible how awful a business practise that is, especially given that TSW4 is still essentially TSW3.

 

That's how the gaming industry works. I happens to me that I discover a game I start to like to later find out there is already a new version is on the way. If I liked the game I'll be very enthusiastic about it. I never buy a game expecting there will be new versions coming out soon. If it's not a new version they will try to sell me a season pass. If you buy a game you know most games will ask for money again.

 

I don't think this analogy is fair. If somebody bought TSW3 recently, they sure can have their fun with it. Their copy of the game won't uninstall, their console won't self-destruct. No gun is held at their head to immediately purchase TSW4.
The way I see it, this person can see how they like TSW franchise in general and have a month to decide, if they want to purchase special edition of TSW4 with a bunch of routes, while it's still 20 % off.

 

That's how DTG works*

But if they didn't know TSW4 was about to come out, a game that is still basically TSW3 under the hood, you think that's fair that the person who recently bought TSW3 is now no longer entitled to any updates or access to future DLC unless they buy TSW4?

I think you need to give yourself a shake if you think thats a great way to treat customers especially when they are still asking essentially full price on Steam for each bundle TSW is offered at. Go take a look because the prices are still the same for TSW3 as we speak.

 

What updates are you specifically talking about? The ones that will solve the savegame issue? The ones that will solve the dispatcher issue? Because I remember both being promised a year ago and none of it arrived. So you tell - what specific updates will your imaginary user lose access to in a foreseeable future, let's say till the end of 2023?

What I view as a very shady practise is a lot of bugs in the content, sometimes promised to be fixed, while the fixes arrive very very late (many months) or never. That is TSW's biggest problem and in my perception it has nothing to do with the frequency of newer iterations being released.
Put in other words: all bugs in all routes should have been fixed ages ago on their original version game they were released for. That is bad, not releasing TSW4 with 3 new routes for the price of 1 route.

 

And won't get any fixes until he buys TSW4.

And we should go with that and think "OK thanks for three new routes, I won't play my favorite ones any longer as they will never get fixes or feature updates"?

For example the new physics simulation is great, in a good DTG world we would get those new physics to all the locos (maybe not at once but it would help if they start cleaning the mess and finally start to integrate only ONE loco of each type), not just the new ones. As a lot of this stuff is reused over and over again. We will even see new content with old locos when TSW4 comes with it standard routes. And they are not up to the current standards of the game. It is a shame! I would also have expected that at least the new OHLE System would be part of an update for all TSW3 routes, but no, it is not.

Will we ever get the working passenger information system on Linke Rheinstrecke? I doubt it, but even if we wil - you have to own TSW4 to see it.

When in some bright day in the future we might finally see EBULA this will also only work with new locos? Not the ones which are used over the last years and is the stock that is used over and over and over again. Wow what a bright view. And I just have to say "I'm ok with that, I can always buy new content".

 

No no, you have misunderstood me. In my perfect world, you wouldn't need any future fixes, because the routes we paid lot of money for would be perfect and bugfree if not since their release, then from shortly after.
Of course if you were today playing TSW2 with all the routes perfectly working, bug free. You would miss TSW4 features on DRA and in order to enjoy DRA with TSW4, you would have to purchase TSW4. But that's not unfair, or do you view it as such?

 

Again: That's how the gaming industry works. Yes there exist games that is just a one time buy and further no costs but there are also games that keep charging money. That was already clear to me the first time I bought TSW and I was a total noob to the game. It's no surprise to me this game keeps emptying my wallet.

 

Literally any updates. Let’s not forget that TSW4 is basically TSW3.

 

My personal point of view is that I'm OK to PAY for a core update, I can live with it. I'm self employeed I know people need money to create something, they are not working for free. My problem is the mess DTG left since the release of TSW2 and the pile of bugs that they just don't get rid of. Would I pay for an updated version of some older route? Yes I would, easy new timetable mode, 10 or 20km extension half the price for owners - I'm in it! But they must do it and not always make promises after promises. Fix that LOVE! That is what they finally have to start with.

 

But as customers we have the power to demand change instead of going blindly along with it. They only get away with this because people don’t seem to care and keep lining the pockets of DTG instead. I’ll happily support continued development of this game if they start offering the core game editions as free updates (like TSC) and then offer route bundles. That sits much better with me instead of being paywalled out of future updates and with an extra added cost if I want to play a DLC that’s only elegible for TSW4 and not 3.

 

So, does Rockstar owe all owners of Red Dead Redemption a free upgrade to RDR2 standard?

 

You mean you are outvoted by people who like the game. The only power you have is your wallet. If the game is as bad as you say people would not be lining up. You don't like the game, others do. There is no one wrong here, you are not wrong for finding it outrageous but it's not wrong for others to praise it. You are not forced to like what you see and you should not force others to dislike what they see.

 

Well, RDR2 came out eight years after RDR1 and is a completely different game...

 

I never once said anyone was wrong. I’m simply offering my opinion and take.

 

TSCs playerbase will decline even heavier with the introduction of the editor, once a few solid routes come out, TSC will essentially have lost more players.

 

It's all in there mate.

To me that sounds like those people are wrong and should not be doing that in your opinion.

 

TSC has a far larger and more varied back catalogue than TSW has though, and TSW routes will presumably be harder and slower to make than TSC routes.

 

No? Where did I say that? RDR2 is a total different game to RDR1 why should I expect that and what has this to do with TSW? Is TSW4 a new simulator like RDR2 is a complete new game over RDR1? No, it is not!

My expectation to a Simulator is just when a new standard arrives (and their are new standard defining features in TSW4) I expect the Simulator to fill that role. I really don't understand all the negative about such requests. It is just normal. DCS becomes new features? OK my content does as well. Not all at once but one after the other. MSFS gets a new update with new functions? Fine my Fenix A320 will get them as well and so and so on.

I have now said several times that I'm absolutely willing to pay! Either for a core update, a route update, a loco update pack whatever. But their is no offer of anything. No updates for free, no updates paid, nothing. New stuff yes, but only for new stuff.

 

It is belittling to suggest people blindly go along with it. I am pre-ordering TSW4, not blindly but with my eyes wide open!

For me TSW brings great enjoyment, I don't particularly feel that DTG has made the correct decision. I feel they should have offered the core updates for free, they haven't and they have a reason, presumably a commercial reason. I don't think castigating them as some Dickensian villian is right either though. However, I am not going to join some kind of boycott and deprive myself of something I enjoy.

It isn't about lining DTG's pockets or being a fanboy but about what I enjoy doing in my spare time and TSW (and a bit of TSC) fulfill that. If it gets to a point where I don't enjoy it then I will find a new hobby.

I don't have a moral responsibility to keep my wallet shut in solidarity with those who feel that DTG should be forced to change direction or have behaved gravely bad. This isn't a union and there aren't work colleagues I need to support.

 

Let’s agree to disagree.

 

And who are you calling a "malcontent", young Vernon
Price doesn't bother me, even as an OAP. I pre-ordered Deluxe. What does bother me is DTG's track record for not making any meaningful improvements or fixing bugs. Never bought TSW3 for that reason, because DTG as a company are all mouth and no trousers.
I will give TSW4 a go and if, as i suspect nothing improves. It will be the last DTG product i purchase.

 

You were doing great there Vern, until you mentioned that heap of scrap iron FS.

 

IKB can't stand anything standard-gauge.

 

The AP fanboyism on this thread is crazy, considering AP are essentially the reason why I gave up on TSC. It’s like people forget all the sky and weather EP nonsense that AP did a few months ago… AP haven’t done anything good in years, while they increase the prices of what is literally a reskin with new sounds with the occasional new features. AP suck. I wonder how TSW would be like if AP started doing content on TSW. As for TSC, that game without enhancements is an absolute eyesore. You cannot compare a default TSC to TSW route, the TSW route will always look better. No point of arguing that because we know this is proven. The only advantage TSC has over TSW at this point is variety and probably in general route length. Give TSW a few more years and TSW will probably have a larger catalogue than TSC. For the whole TSW is dying crowd, you do realise that the steam playerbase is a very small fraction of the TSW base in general, you are forgetting Epic, PlayStation and Microsoft. TSW is much bigger than TSC as of now. And for those complaining about TSW4, a lot of you don’t realise that if we compare each release, this is probably the most amount of new features we have gotten since 2017 when CSX heavy haul dropped. Now I’m not saying you can’t complain, but some of the stuff people are complaining about isn’t fair at all. The pricing is also quite decent, the ratio of routes to pricing is fair, we are getting a new game for essentially the price of a single route! That’s a great deal in my eyes considering N3V would have probably charged triple for the features we get. I don’t know, I like to call out DTG when they do dumb stuff but some of the criticism just makes no sense in my eyes

 

But once the community gets the hang of it it’s much easier to develop in UE than in TS editor. It’s all about getting the hang of it though, and a few other things

 

Comparing RDR and RDR2 to TSW3 and TSW4, lol...

 

We must be looking at two completely different things. DTG is style over substance whereas AP is substance over style. DTG have flashy graphics in their announcements and trailers but often poor gameplay. AP quietly go about their business while producing the most in depth and well rounded products, even if they are expensive. DTG overpromise and underdeliver whereas AP often spring big surprises out the blue.

What planet are you on? The Sky & Weather 2.0 and Cloud EP are literally the two best products they have ever made, both released earlier this year. The two packs together completely transform TSC.

 

Hmmm. In a group of threads where many are bashing DTG for its business practices, we get unalloyed praise for AP whose business practices make RBS's look ethical?

 

US content is up and down on TSC, you have great developers like Milepost Simulations who makes interesting routes, Smokebox who makes some of the best steam locomotives for TSC, Machine Rail and Diesel Workshop who make solid locos, Searchlight Simulations who make some of the most advanced locos in game as well.

Then you have DTGs stock, which is usually recycled since the beginning of the game reusing old assets from the Kuju days, DTM, who doesn't really make the best locos, usually incorrect details, and his recent work for HISs Saluda grade is awful, poor sounds, incorrect physics, model issues, and its labeled pro ranged despite having less functions that the SD40-2 from TSW.... TBT is also another dev that has low quality addons.

 

I have all the DTG TSW locos and routes since the beginning. I like TSW, I operate the game perhaps 3 or 4 times a week. A sort of escapism for an hour or so. I am not a rivet counter, i don’t become upset when this or that is not quite right, perhaps I should, but I don’t. Mrs. D, my beloved, calls it “Train Stimulator” when I’m “playing” and yes, I’ll buy TSW4 when it comes out, I can afford to - after alli it’s perhaps the cost of 3 trips to the cinema or 5pints of beer in a London pub - I know which I’d prefer. So you pays your money and you takes your choice - but don’t get too upset over what is just a game. Life is too short.