Livery Designer & Scenario Planner - have got the minor improvements that were promised back when we were playing TSW2. Core specific, and could just as easily have been a patch/update to TSW3. Free Roam (I believe), Volumetric Fog, Loco Suspension, new OHLE and Rain Visuals - All route or loco, not core, specific. Again, wouldn’t have missed a beat had they come to TSW3. Editor - Totally independent of the game Logo change from a 3 to a 4 - Ok, you got me. That would have been tricky without a new game. Have a go at me all you like, I couldn’t care less. It doesn’t alter the facts though I’m afraid. pveezy I’m done with this. If DTG showed you a black piece of paper and told you it was orange you would seemingly believe them. You enjoy your ‘new game’.
Most people after a few months knew it wasn't happening - DTG should have just been honest at that point. It left no real room for complaints, certainly not at the present scale.
I am quite happy for them to concentrate their resources on improving TSW4 and developing TSW5. Core development has been very slow for TSW over the years and I am happy to see new features arriving. Look to the future, not the past.
Still quite large changes, going forward or across the board. And what SP/LD are getting does not count as "minor" - it's a huge change for those of us who use those tools. Also, none of the features were promised at the time, just an overhaul. Clearly, game development takes time. Who would have guessed that... Edit: To be clear - TSW4 is a justified new installment. TSW3 is the one we should be looking at and asking "why?"
- Lie - Noun "an intentionally false statement." - See, Lying is saying you'll do something and then having no intention of doing it. THAT is easy to understand, but that is not the point you are making. Saying they'll work on doing something, doing the work on something, being unable to complete the work on doing something because it generates more work that deemed acceptible, to a point where it is actually worse off doing that something and releasing a statement saying why they couldn't do that something and here's the reason why. That.... That is not lying. Saying that is lying, is hard to understand, because.... it is not lying
Mate, they said the updates were ready and they were waiting for a release slot for them to be released. That turned out to be completely false. Rather than be straightforward from the beginning, they lied to their customers saying that it was gonna come when it never wasn't regardless of the reasoning. They mislead their customers and therefore lied
I am saying, as are others, that what they said they were planning was NOT TRUE. They had no real intention of wasting time on older TSW versions and just didn't want to say so.
As am I. The debate is about what you have to buy in addition in order to access those upgrades. If the routes as they are dont appeal one has to wait until one does appeal. At that point its presumably got a shortened shelf life due TSW5 probable release. Thats the issue for me. It feels like Im having to buy stuff that I dont want, which will rapidly become obsolete, in order to get my hands on stuff that I'll probably never use or never notice, in order to buy a route I might want at some point in the future
They tried appeasing the people who stayed on TSW2 with promises, didn't work out. Pretty much the bottom line.
Or... you know.... they caused problems each time they tried to add them to a patch. Like... their statement says. But I guess, if you're stubbonly going to make needless and purely false accusations to make yourself feel better, then, do it?.
I totally knew day 1 that it wasn't coming but was told I was crazy and didn't know nothing. I still pre-ordered TSW3. Well here we are, I just want to prove the point I've made for years about not to believe everything they say. Alot is just customer service jargon to get you to move on. Me I don't watch streams and don't expect many patches. I still have fun playing the game and will continue to do so as I have already pre-ordered TSW4. I know what I'm buying and my expections are not very high so I take the risk on myself. Just buyer beware on all future things. For me the money is not an issue but I can totally see where it is for people and how they must be frustrated/annoyed. But I've been on this Train since TSW 2020 so I know what to expect now. It hasen't changed one bit.
Well no, because a lie is an intentionally false statement, so by that VERY statement, a lie that isn't intentional..... isn't
Its miss-speaking in modern parlance Try that on your wife.. Darling, meet my mistress. I havent been lying to you, Ive been enabling change.
They would've known for a while that it would've have been possible yet reassured people anyway. That in itself is an intentional lie. They should've been straightforward from the beginning
The definition of "lie" says otherwise. Argue with the dictionary. If you say something that isn't true because you don't actually know the truth - it's not a lie.
Running with that analogy: Lie - "I don't have a mistress" [I do have a mistress] Change - "I do have a mistress" [When I said I didn't - I didn't. I do now, though]
Great. They finally admitted that all this "waiting for a release window" excuse was a lie. Not unexpected, but still saddening. Anyway, all I can say to the TSW4 crowd is, keep this in mind next time you look at the TSW4 roadmap...
This whole did DTG lie is a bit of a red herring tbh. I think almost everyone agrees that DTG started off TSW 2020 learning their trade. They still are to a large extent. The issue many have is the bundling of DLC with associated cost together with the core.
The issue with TSW4 is more that it's only a year after TSW3. TSW4 is justified for a new release - TSW3, in hindsight and comparison, wasn't.
I'm not, they said it was happening rather than being straightforward. If they were straightforward from the beginning, I wouldn’t have a problem, but they strung players along saying something that wouldn’t happen and thus they lied. If you don't think they did, I don’t know what more to say
Sure, that's what they said for the TSW2 fixes as well. It's literally the same story. Fixes available on day one for the new release, and will be available at a later date for the old release.
Love it! It doesn't alter my view though sadly. I wish it did. Oh, and your wife is still going to take your house, half your pension, and the dog.
I fully agree with you on this. The past two days communcation and presentation has been great. They have also come clean and apologised for stuff. Kudos to them. But I understand the anger about stringing people along about updates for years.
These are core. What (some) people can't seem to wrap their heads around is that there are only actually 4 TSW4 routes - Antelope Valley, OBB, ECML, and an upgraded Dresden. TSW4 features work on TSW4 routes. TSW3 and 2 routes are not TSW4 routes. They carry over as a bonus to people that bought those but they are only ever purported to work as they do in whatever version of TSW they came from. Basically "backwards compatibility". My Xbox Series X can play Xbox 360 games but that doesn't mean Xbox 360 games magically become Series X games or my Series X is the same as a Xbox 360. Again, if people are only interested in the TSW2 and 3 routes, everyone is free to keep playing them as is today in those versions of the game. TSW3 looks like it will still have at least some patching support going forward. No game is patched forever nor would anyone expect that but you can keep playing what you like on that version of the game if you aren't interested in the new routes or features. Those of us that want to upgrade to TSW4 get the new game, new routes with the new features. As a bonus, we get to carry over all of our current routes and install them in the new game (negating the need to keep the old games installed) and keep playing them at the standard we are used to playing them at (and who knows maybe some get upgraded down the road). All if this is for a pretty reasonable price, the cheapest TSW4 entry point is about the same cost of a single new route for TSW3. Take it or leave it.
Anyone still defending this company and their practices. Except it was an intentional lie. They stated with full confidence that the patch is ready, just waiting for a release window. This statement means there is no work left on the content, simply waiting for upload. This was a blatant lie, because as admitted in the roadmap, the patch was never even ready. Expect the same treatment for the TSW3 fixes.
Thats like saying the TSW3 lighting system isn't core because it is only specific to TSW3 routes. Duh its a TSW3 feature it works on TSW3 routes. TSW4 features work on TSW4 routes. The fact that old routes still plug into the new game doesn't change them from being old routes built to a different standard. The core TSW4 routes get core TSW4 features. Would you rather DTG release upgraded games where none of the prior DLC work?
So what exactly is the point? Because all I see is people with the expectation that they buy a game once and get years and years of free updates and "patches" that make major changes to the game. That's not really how games work, outside of maybe "free to play" microtransaction games. I mean it would be nice. Maybe they could throw in a Ferrari and a free night at the playboy bunny ranch too.
You wouldn't get far with a game that had a life of now 4 years but only had a handful of routes because only the most recent ones count. TSW needs to understand how important it is to keep content current and make buying a 2020 route as appealing as buying a 2023 or 2024 route. Thats how you get depth and breadth in the catalogue. Constant version upgrades which deprecate things and bring in more and more tiers of haves and do not haves help no one, least of all us as customers or DTG as the producer. You make money by creating new content and selling it, and by new customers arriving at the franchise years later and buying into the back catalogue. What would be their incentive to do this if only the most recent 5 routes were any good and had all of the current features?
This is a great point! I actually just removed a bunch of TSW2 and 3 routes from my wishlist because of the fact that they're "obsolete" now. If it's bad messaging, DTG need to change that perception. If its accurate, that's lost sales.
Umm, that is exactly how many similar games work, my dude. But whatever floats your boat, have fun with your yearly paid patches.
Yup. In my library- Graviteam Tactics- updates GHPC- updates CK3- updates Uboat- updates DCS- updates HOI4- updates There's lots of examples actually. I don't know how they do it and stay in business Edit- perhaps its a competency thing..
Thanks, I will, especially considering the "paid" patch is free with any one of the routes, not to mention the fact that with pre-order you get 3 routes for the price of 1 TSW3 route AND the new core game. September will be fun, thanks for asking!
Have they sent out a script that I’m not aware of? Whatever. As long as you’re thinking for yourself, making your own decisions and not just simply believing everything you’re told that’s all that matters.
Spot on. And what of us who just want to drive the trains and get on with life? Are we "TSW4 crowd" - which seems like an attempt to just belittle people who disagree with you. No - it's just that not everyone has the same opinion as you. Sorry if that's a problem, thoughts are with you.
You do realize that is how similar sims work. ETS/ATS, Assetto Corsa Competizione, Train Sim Classic, need I go on. Free core upgrades/updates and sell separate dlc's and they still make a profit. Not everyone wants the new routes and shouldn't have to buy a route that they won't play regardless if the price is to your liking to continue getting updates to older content as they have basically admitted that future updates will be locked behind a paywall. The "new" tsw 4 features. Scenario Planner 2.0 which is an update to the original scenario planner. You can have A.I and the player go back and forth, have a custom start time even though could've set the times already, put text to your scenario and the ability to change the weather. Nothing major about it. Heck, the number of trains you can put in a scenario doesn't change so you are stuck with 20 trains which wasn't much to begin with anyways Livery Designer 2.0 adds more layers and improved functionality. Isn't massive. Photo Mode. A nice feature if you like taking screenshots but it's nothing major. Other games have had this for ages Volumetric Fog. It's a checkbox built into the Unreal Engine. Not a major feature. Improved rain textures, nothing major. I actually didn't mind the rain textures in tsw3. The editor is good for pc players but if you are on console, it's completely pointless. Slightly improved headlights. The headlights for tsw 3 trains were pretty good so it's not a massive improvement. Scoring 2.0 is just an update to the points system. Frankly I'd rather have an option to turn off points and medals TSW 4 is just an update to tsw 3 but has new routes. There is no reason why the core updates could've been given to existing players for free and just charged for the dlc. They still would've made a profit. They wouldn't have gone broke and wouldn't have gone out of business. It's not as if they are upgrading the game engine If you still can't get it then I don't know what to tell you
Just to throw ¢2 on this; Anyone who uses either of these tools - myself included - will be bouncing off the walls in excitement at these. On paper they're minor changes but in practise they are a gamechanger for Scenarios/Liveries.
Good for you. It's not massive improvements but if you will enjoy it, that's fine. Doesn't justify a brand new game
It is simple logic and economics. A new TSW3 route is $53 CDN on Playstation store. Pre-order TSW4 and all 3 routes is $53 CDN. Lets picture, for a moment, a world where TSW4 never exists, and TSW3 was patched "for free" to upgrade all the core features of TSW4, what would it look like? They still wouldn't back port the new features to old routes, because thats not how the game engine seems to work (ie just dropping TOD4 on a TSW2 route breaks a lot of it). The "upgrade" would be free, but the 3 new routes would still be paid DLC. At current DLC prices that would mean each is $53 CDN. So if I want none of them, I spend nothing, get a "free" patch, but still don't get any of the "new" features really, since most of them apply to new routes going forward. That basic option is still available right now if you want to stay on TSW3 and get none of the new stuff, you can do that. If I want any of the new routes, I'd be paying at least $53 CDN. So I wouldn't save anything compared to the current TSW4 roll out. If I wanted all 3 new routes (which I do), as TSW3 DLC that would cost me $159 CDN. So I'd be paying way more than I am by getting the "paid upgrade" to TSW4 (all 3 routes for $53). So using logic, facts, and math - there is not much to be crying about.
yes it’s dead in terms of core fixes but I believe I can explain how this works as there seems to be a pattern forming TSW2020 became TSW2 which became TSW3 which is becoming TSW4 which will become TSW5 which will become TSW6 which will become TSW7 which will become TSW8 which will become TSW9 which will become TSW10 which will become TSW11 which will become TSW12 will become TSW 13 which will become TSW14 which will become TSW15. It’s the circle of life bros, we learned this in Lion King. Previous version dies so the new one can live. DTG took their business model straight out of the Lion King. Absolutely brilliant. If you haven’t seen it, you should see it once. Spoiler, the good guys win, it is a kids movie after all. Anyway, yea, might be expensive for some folks to keep up with the content but you all know how this works by now.
Imo, it (and everything else) combined does. On paper it's a whole load of minor changes with a couple of new features - but in practise it will really change things in quite a few departments. TSW3 is the one you should be arguing wasn't worth it, tbh. Some basic weather improvements and that was it. Come on, it's nothing compared to this. TSW4 offers more by way of features than any TSW game so far, by far.
