Oh believe me, I agree about tsw3. I never bought it and used gamepass. These tsw 4 features are just not major updates that justify a new game as well especially if you aren't interested in making liveries or scenarios. You may disagree and that's fine. But I don't think these updates are major. They are minor changes for the most part
What is stopping them from just making routes cheaper? It’s not like these are physical copies with individual production costs, so would they not sell more and we’d get better value? Also, in regard to upgrading old routes, it wouldn’t kill DTG to put more effort into revitalising older routes to make a more attractive and convenient catalog, although I suppose that would mean less sales for TSW4 probably, and we all know DTG put money over quality and value.
It's not just liveries/scenarios, though. There's a lot of changes. Imo it's more justified than any other - and nobody really complained about TSW2 coming out. DTG from now forward need to either: - Match the bar set by TSW4 with every New Game OR - Stick with TSW4 with a TSC Model OR - Make new installments Free-to-Play with Training Center, so that people don't have to pay for fixes/routes they don't want. Option 3 is probably most likely.
I literally listed the features. It's not about the routes. You seem to be the guy who likes to create liveries, scenarios and the editor will be a major thing for pc players and certainly isn't a bad thing. But they are not massive changes or revolutionary changes. Updated points scoring isn't a massive change, slightly improved headlights isn't a massive change, having overhead wires be easily seen isn't a massive change. A photo . mode isn't a massive change. I just don't see how they are massive changes or features Most of these features are just updates to what we have. TSW 2 had a pretty big engine upgrade. That was more understandable than tsw 4
TSW2 was also necessary to drop NEC NY and the GP40, because obviously you can’t just take away purchased content from people. Scenario Planner and Livery Designer were also pretty substantial considering back in TSW1 there was zero creative freedom to do anything, the game was practically locked down to just official content. TSW4 is the same engine version as TSW3, could’ve very well been a core update to 3, same as how TSW3 could’ve been a core update to TSW2. I would assume the new games are just to keep the game “fresh” and increase sales. Nothing too wrong with that, it’s unfortunate that we’re down to a one year life span, but people will still open their wallets and buy it so it’ll continue to happen.
100 Pennies doesn't sound like much. 1 Pound sounds like more. Looking at these changes individually and on paper, it's not much. However, looking at them in combination and in practise, it's quite a big change.
Honestly mate, you're entitled to your view. I don't agree and I've explained why. If you think that all these updates justify a new game which is a paid update, then I don't know what else to say. Most of these features are features we already have with some improvements. It's not major
I'm going to just offer that we agree to disagree. You've been quite reasonable, unlike some others with a similar viewpoint. And so I respect your opinion as well. I just personally think that, when we get the game, it'll feel like more than it does just now, when all we've seen is text and trailers.
We are just gonna have to agree to disagree I am pleased that they are allowing more creativity. I've actucally wanted to see some of these features especially since they have said that some would come in previous tsw iterations. I'm just not pleased on how they have done it. The number of trains you can put in scenario planner 2.0 though won't change players are stuck with 20 trains. I thought that would've increased but I guess not
Its been an interesting 24 hours watching the conversations shake down. Im starting to coalesce around the thought that a lot of this is a branding problem. If they'd called it something that clearly created a gap between TSW3 and TSW4 (there is a gap with stuff like portals etc), then a lot of people, myself included, possibly wouldnt be feeling quite so aggrieved at having to purchase a game called the same as a game we already own. Messaging is key perhaps..
Except in this universe TSW3 players would be getting the new features that do apply to old routes, fixes for pre-TSW4 routes, and the ability to buy new DLC without having to pay for additional routes on top.
Im the first to agree (just check out my history from the last 24 hrs), but Im giving some thought to the technical differences (portals for ai trains for one) which cannot be applied to TSW 3 routes. While there is backwards compatability without features on some/most routes, I dont think that there is forwards compatibility which makes sense. Its a bit of a step change, lost in the swamp of tangents. It does appear in this case that there is a significant disconnect between the two titles that has been lost in the conversation.
I used to watch the roadmap streams. They'd keep teasing all the Preservation Crew updates month after month then fail to get them through QA. Then after what felt like endless roadmaps promising they'd be here soon they finally got released... for TSW3. And TSW2 owners will get them "soon" still. I declined to get TSW3 as I own a PS5, and just couldn't rationalise buying a "new" PS4 game but I'm not prepared to lose all my progress, and progress transfer from PS4 to PS5 is yet another feature that was on the roadmap before being consigned to "not happening". Now the expected news comes that Preservation Crew updates will never be released for TSW2. I'd like to request a refund... for my time, spent watching roadmap streams for features I'll never get! :-(
To develop my thoughts from the post above further, it seems to me given my limited understanding that the full employment of the new features will be limited to new routes from this point onwards. If that is the case, it does seem that those of us who prefer routes that have so far not made an appearance in TSW4 would be better placed to stick with TSW3, given that TSW4 functionality with things like portals will not be backwards compatible on those routes. As and when preferred routes drop in, thats the time to move forward. Is that a correct assessment?
How is it belittling? Unless you are somehow ashamed of liking TSW4, there is nothing belittling or bad about being in the TSW4 crowd. I just told you to remember this case whenever you hear a promise from DTG. Their promises mean nothing. Their words hold no weight. Their explanation to anything doesn't matter, because today they say one thing, tomorrow will say something entirely different. If you like what you currently see, good, go for it. But don't buy anything based on their promises, like the TSW4 roadmap, which already tries to promise features that are not yet in the game. Don't expect an Editor v2 or v3, don't expect a winter update, don't expect any of the "not available at launch, but will be at a later date", because clearly they lie all day without any shame. You are only guaranteed to get what you currently see.
I think DTG need to give a thorough selling pitch on the technical advantages, rather than spending half an hour talking about pretty mountains..
The thing that struck me was Matt thinking that the single remaining flat crossing being on this stretch of the ECML was somehow a big selling point. Matt, it is already a niche product...please!
the alternative is that they offer free core updates, much like TS Classic, and make their coin with route bundles on each edition release instead. The way people aren't paywalled from future updates. They still make money and it creates less drama and friction. All we're seeing here folks is a classic capitalistic move by the board of greedy directors who likely voted for this model. Some customers don't care, which is sad, and others like myself aren't so naive.
looool Makes you wonder if maybe they should just stop releasing new yearly editions of the game and focus on just making one rather fantastic simulator, fully fledged, feature rich, has most of its promised items/features from day 1 instead of dragging it out asking its customers to keep buying the new editions. As others have corrected you, are they really core when they only apply to specific routes and DLC? I would be inclined to disagree. I'd not take it too personally.
Is TSC a cult? You all sound alike. Like a hive. It's almost like you are all using the same script. Yes they could have copied TSC and they didn't. We are talking about TSW and that game ain't TSC. IMO TSC is getting a bad wrap because of these TSC tantrums. TSC has never looked worse to me than what I notice TSC to actually be. A very narrow minded vision that doesn't leave much room to changes.
Making snide remarks doesn't make your point any more valid, just shows you up as immature. As I said on another thread, I don't think it is DTG driving a wedge, there have been several people coming out of the woodwork over the last few days who clearly can't handle those who aren't ranting and raving and who are planning to purchase TSW4, and shock of shocks will actually enjoy it. I care about what I enjoy and what I like doing in my spare time, it isn't naive to spend my own money on what I want to spend it on, I am a grown adult earning my own money. I don't owe it to you to join some kind of boycott just because you have some chip on your shoulder.
I ain't taking nothing personally, your the one who said 'some customers don't care and others like yourself ain't so naive '
Quite the astute observation that you noticed the games are not the same, yes. But they are made by the same company and that business model for TSC made sense and worked for everyone. Clearly it is asking too much of them to consider doing that again but with TSW.
So it's weird I bought TSW and have totally no intention of ever buying TSC. Clearly it does make sense to you but not to me.
There is a lot of TSC vs TSW discussion, my observation is that DTG couldn't care either way, as they make both.
Calling people naive for spending their own money, basically we aren't intelligent enough to see the bigger picture (as you see it) is being snide.
Right. Lots of sniping here, and conversation which is going round in circles. Going to bed now, but if this thread remains as bickering as it is at the moment, I will lock it tomorrow morning.
Not really, look at something like Phantasy Star Online:New Genesis, which is now displayed in the XBox Store as Phantasy Star Online:New Genesis V2. Same game, it just has fancy new player housing and an accompanying rebrand.
Not everyone, it doesn't work for me or 66% player base apparently. As we are on console without PC access. You know to Windows which is required to run TSC. And obviously it doesn't work for Sony or Microsoft either. Because yeah a game may upgrade for free for like 4 years, but you always have to buy a new version. And more expensive than TSW4. Look at MSFS, new one next year. Old one will be obsolete with bugs unfixed as well. You will still be able to use your current DLC for the new one. But support will be dropped like a rock on MSFS 2020. And there is no free upgrade. If you want the new features you have to buy it. PC included. It's how consoles work. And yes we are the majority of players on TSW. So comparing TSC and TSW is like comparing apples and oranges. Yes they are fruit but they are completely different. TSC is following a business plan that typically only PC games follow and one that is over 10 years old. When did they ever say that TSW was going to be the same as TSC with free core upgrades? I would like to see it. Just wait till next year and TSC starts charging yearly too. They did this year, this is how it starts.
Because game development is expensive from actual platform costs, publisher costs and licenses. They also have to pay for rent, employee wages, account for cost of living and inflation. Covid caused many things to become more expensive. After all, dtg are a company that needs to make a profit to survive. It doesn't mean they'll necessarily get more sales. A game can cost however much it wants but if players don't like it, they won't buy it then it means less money for the company, etc.
Microsoft Flight Simulator, Elder Scrolls Online, Euro Truck Simulator 2, American Truck Simulator, Farming Simulator 22, Snowrunner to name a few are games with an upfront cost but get continuous core game improvements. Selling game fixes like the TSW model is actually the aberration.
This whole thread reminds me of last year's TSW3 launch and the way DTG seems to not know how to read the room (their community in this case) and creates division. Yes they have apologized in roadmap 2 for the TSW2 abandonment and I accept that as a kind gesture where they really could have ignored the matter completely. But now seeing TSW3 abandoned a year after release puts a bad taste in many people's mouths again. What will the future hold for TSW4? These are valid doubts placed in some people's minds which creates negativity. I know the community managers need to wave the pom poms and tell everybody that what they have planned will be great, but could they not see how their decisions could create backlash? It really is a shame. It would be nice if DTG would communicate a clear future and expectations for this new version. Will it last only a year? Is that the plan or are they unsure yet? Maybe they don't want to say as it would negatively impact sales. I really don't know how they could fix this mess of their own creation. I was really hoping for a basic TSW reboot and not an added version number. Even if they charged for a new core this year it could have remained the core for years to come barring some monumental shift like a game engine upgrade. I'll stay on ancient TSW2 knowing now that it is what it is. Hopefully the franchise can get better in the future, but only time will tell.
Oh I hadn't heard of that! I played it off and on and it is quite enjoyable. Tons of content and runs well. 3 years isn't all that bad. But is the sequel Snowrunner 2 or a whole new game? Before they went from mud to snow. Maybe sand?
i do not think TSW 3 will receive any updates at all after TSW 4 is out it is in the same situation as TSW 2 last year they should also just release the fix for broken achievements on both versions so we can at least 100% the games
This pretty much sums it up, but not the way people think. The TSW2 patches seemed very doable at the start. The TSW2 PS add-on manager was working fine and soon to come to TSW3 (I think DTG initially expected to have it like next month). Problem is that DTG found unexpected trouble adding the the TSW 3 PS add-on manager and ended up releasing it like 6 months late. All that time they had to commit resources to getting it to work, while at the same time having to maintain different code versions for TSW2 add-on manager patches, TSW2 without add-on manager patches and TSW3 patches. At the same time, they kept fixing more bugs in the TSW3 branches. Sometimes they would find some fixes in the TSW3 branch caused unexpected effects, so had to make more changes (that are potentially not compatible with the TSW2 branches) and kept doing that for 6 months. Now get to march 2023 and DTG releases the TSW3 PS add-on manager. Guess what now. You have a new code branch. Code for TSW3 with add-on manager and TSW3 without add-on manager (for non-PS platforms). Imagine the size of the mess this is starting to look like. The snowball growing and growing... I bet the build engineers wanted to start running and not come back. Again, not that easy to implement the TSW3 add-on manager for Xbox / PC ... another 6 month delay, more patches potentially not compatible with the TSW2 branches. Now we got to TSW4. They got the add-on manager implemented for all platforms but the snowball of patches to be backported to TSW2 is no longer a small or medium sized snowball, but something the size of the rolling rock in Indiana Jones and the Lost Ark. Of course, as they had been saying that they were going to patch TSW2, they did not want to admit defeat to themselves. Im sure they always hoped that they could make some huge effort at the end and get it done. At some point they finally realized that it was going to be impossible to backport all the patches to TSW2, and to me it looks exactly what DTG just told us that happened in the August Roadmap. So yes, DTG could not fulfill their promise to release the TSW2 patches but I do not believe for a moment that it was not their intention to do it.
The way you describe it is like a juggler juggling too many objects at once. And we've heard this many times over the years through their streams that they have too much going on, they're taking a pause, resetting, changing the way they do things etc. Yet the juggler keeps coming up again and again. With the infusion of cash from Focus perhaps they could hire a dedicated project manager to calm the nonsense that's been going on for years? Or maybe they have and TSW4 is the big reset? But in the end such a small company can't keep running like this as it shows a level of unprofessionalism that is fully out there in the public eye. It's just not a good look.
I think there might be some good news in all of this. Now they should have the add-on manager sorted for good, and by the way DTG is talking about the reasons they could make PC Editor now, it looks like they do not intend to make many more drastic changes to the UE4 TSW. That should make everything more stable in the same way that happened when they stopped making drastic changes to the TSC engine. Since it seems DTG is hiring UE5 developers it makes sense to think they will start working on the UE5 TSW soon or they might be doing it right now. Also don't everyone worry just yet. That doesn't mean the UE4 version is gonna die (it will probably last for a long time as TSC is doing) and also doesn't mean the UE5 TSW version is gonna come next year (probably will take more than 1 year to make).
Good points. Maybe TSW4 will end up with a 3+ year life cycle at which point a new TSW or maybe a whole new name will come up under a UE5 engine. Unfortunately there will be much drama there as well as routes may not be backwards compatible unless some sort of magic can include them within the same menu system of such a game. Here's hoping we will see franchise stability for the foreseeable future instead of the upheaval of the last couple.
Yeah, but keep in mind that the gen 8 consoles are no good for UE5 and also UE5 requires a lot more PC hardware that is expensive right now and not looking like it is going to get any better, so even when the UE5 version of TSW releases I think DTG will keep releasing UE4 DLCs and content.
Please tell me you're taking the piss. • The cost of routes is based on the money they spend (wages and bills) developing the game, and also make a profit. • Revitalising old routes gives them little financial gain compared to a new one. They are a company. Their job is to make money.
