With reference sounds from other sources and a wide selection of available sound recordings from other trains, plus modern techniques, skill and time, it should be possible to get fairly close to the sounds required. I think there is always one element missing for all teams working for DTG and that is having the required amount of time to get things done to a high standard. That’s how, even with an actual recorded sound set, we still get poor mixing. There may well be a lack of the necessary skillset or attention to detail at play also but I wouldn’t want to comment on that further than I have in the past. It seems like a time restraint and we end up with poor results.
It's not my concern that DTG didn't get permission from the ÖBB to create recordings. You can't blame them for that. For me it seems as if they hadn't even listened to the real sounds of the Talent 1 (if not real, then at least in videos). Because then everyone would have heard immediately that the template of the 442 does not fit at all. Yes, even an adapted Electrostar sound would fit better than that. And it's not just the sound of the traction motor. Also, brakes, alternators and the squeaks all sound the same, it just doesn't feel right. It really doesn't have to be 100% accurate, but with a new vehicle of a new TSW generation, I expect that you will recognize what's behind it.
Now I’m no expert at Austrian rolling stock or talents, but after watching videos electrostar sounds would have been more apt, I can agree with you all on that, however what I can’t agree on is it being 100% DTGS fault as it isn’t, if OBB wouldn’t let them record the sounds then they can’t, it doesn’t take a genius to work that out, yes using the talent 2 sounds are questionable but at least they tried I guess
Just to throw that in. Lots of you just have no idea how all that works and what you need to do to make train audio. It's not that easy as you might think. Sometimes it's nearly impossible. It's easy to say "synthesise it". But that does not really work well when you have no sources. The RT 442 was synthesised and therefor not sounding anything like the real one. The later 442 uses real recordings from a 442 (Linus, implemented by me) and these are the ones that were used here as a working solution. You have to blame me, as i decided to do it this way because there were no original sound recordings in sight at all. I can't simply use AP sounds. And tbh., i didn't even know that a 377 sounds the same. So, my fault here, for sure. Throw the LOVE on me, not the others, who work hard every day to make that game happen at all.
I opened YouTube, looked through a dozen entries 4024 and I can say one thing: from that short trailer posted by DTG, it is impossible to reliably assess the completeness and correctness of the sounds. The sound mix of the train acceleration from the video is not much different from the sound of the train on YouTube. I can't point to a critical audio mix inconsistency that would render the DLC unplayable. I suggest you wait for the stream and listen to everything again. Then we'll discuss how the team managed to create a sound mix close to the real thing, and what else can be changed. Be that as it may, the club of authors and modders will bring the sounds to acceptable. Justus makes excellent mixtures for German trains.
Again you defend the indefensible. We are not talking about DTG ripping sounds from someone’s YT clip and hoping they get away with it. We are talking about reference purposes enhanced by the sound engineer actually travelling on the trains concerned, to build up a knowledge of what it needs to sound like using the audio they do have available.
Again you try to explain the unexplainable. A reference point for whom? You want an audio engineer to create good audio based on bad audio recordings? Again I'm asking if you really do understand how audio works?
I know how my ears and memory works. Guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this particular point and hope these sounds will be a placeholder while more accurate audio is researched and applied.
it helped nothing to have this kind of discussion. The real question is to ask what is the plan of DTG? Are they going to work for a solution? Use the 377 sound? do nothing? ask for external modders? ask OBB once again?
Here comes some love for you then: Did anyone ever listened to a Talent 1 in planning? How was the process to decide? I mean, never mind, it is just sound right? In the end you just look out to the window, press some silly button, and don't you have fun? What is even the point of making a simulation? Second: Didn't this came up by the beta-testers? Again, this is not the first time sound is a concern against a DLC. It seems, it is not a priority. And that is sad, because sound can make and break the illusion of driving a train.
Thanks for the interesting insights.If there are no original sound recording in sight at all, I don't think it's the best decision from DTG to bring this train bundled with the route as a core route for TSW 4.
A human memory is a really a bad reference point. Even hearing is not that simple as you might think. I would not trust your ears. I don't trust even mine to be accurate What I'm more worried about than authentic recording is how the audio is implemented. I couldn't tell if the sounds of the N-wagon are authentic but I do know the brake sound is not well implemented for example.
Yes, and i realised that i have nothing for it. But that was way behind the plannings. I did no plannings for the route or train. I was asked to make the train happen technically and sound wise, i said yes (IF.....), and then it got to where it is now. That's the "game" developers have to play. No idea. Not my workload. But if you want to know how i would decide. Depends. As one who does this stuff for over 12 years now, i absolutely know where the problems are and how to cope with them. I know that audio is a killer for most products in the TS genre. If we would use the bloat here, it would mean "no audio, no train". But sorry, that is not how it works. Audio might be the most important for the few people here in this thread, but the majority of players out there don't even know how they really sound. I don't like wrong or synthesised sounds on the products, but there is sometimes (even more often today) no other way. Having no product is definitely not the way. That would mean that there would be no TSC and no TSW at all. If you personally want that, fine. But the majority of players want it anyways, even if the sound or other things are not perfect. Not a single blubb about it tbh. That shows the importance of it. It's not nearly that important as you guys describe it in here. Don't get me wrong. I love to have accurate audio. But Audio is not the leading aspect in making a train simulator DLC at all. Audio is just a thing that has to be there somehow. And don't tell me, the train is unplayable because of that. That's not true for most players.
I can't believe beta testers aren't given a sort of "checklist" to check accuracy of sounds. With trains it tends to be quite easy to just open up youtube and listen to it. I don't want to assume anything about the QA team, I'm sure a lot of them do their best, but finding the Talent 1 sounds as being "meh, okay" with a BR 442 sound copy when it actually sounds way more similar to a British Class 377 just doesn't feel right. It would be great if DTG could look into this and work on a fix. At least use the more similar sounds.
Have to say that I agree with what was said by Maik above. I have no idea what the real train sounds like and won’t make any effort to find out. That way, so long as it’s plausible, I will still enjoy the route. That’s not belittling those who do know what it sounds like and who it will spoil the immersion for. For them I can understand the frustration. If you didn’t know what it sounded like and read this thread and convinced yourself that it’s ruined the DLC, then that’s on you. Would be great if it can be revisited (I doubt it will be) but to not make a DLC because not everything can be perfect would be sad. I’ll continue to focus on the positives until I’ve tried it for myself. TSW has been crying out for a new country and we’ve got one.
It might not be unplayable, but it’s just a shame really. We’ve seen true greatness when it comes to sounds in TSW. Everyone has their own expectations & dispositions for audio quality, but I certainly expected better than this. Especially after being told earlier in the year that DTG knew how important audio is to people, and is something they’d work on improving. “audio is just a thing that has to be there” is not the development attitude I expect at this point in TSW’s life.
So you are not to blame! You did, what you could. I would not blame you, even if you knew the Electrostars fx sound is pretty near. This shouldn't be an excuse. Then why bother making a simulation anyway? Speak for yourself, but I really hate to drive a train with the wrong sound (given I know how they sound, but that is mostly the case). I just doesn't feel right. It's like a really annoying itch on the back where you can't reach. It is not fun anymore.
Sure the train is not unplayable but if we play TSW its for a minimum of realism. The game ist sold as a "realistic simulator". So we wait for a minimum of realism. If we want to play an arcade game train then we can play on a smartphone. Of course we won´t ever have a 100% simulated train with a 1 for 1 Physic / sound. We don´t expect that but to copy the sound of another train without any rework sorry (and without ANY communication from our lovely dev team or communication team, i feel a bit f.uc.ked up
Not to mention one of the key factors in focusing on contemporary projects, as I believe DTG have stated, is that everything is available here and now to research. If they were reproducing the line and one of its trains in the 1980's, I could maybe understand a little compromise. But this definitely needed more focus.
Beta testers are a group of volunteers (on top, or better before) the QA gets on the testing. Each beta tester has its very own mind and opinions about different trains. There is less information about those 4024s that no one even would mind testing it i think. Beta testers are not forced to test specific things. Its a group o players that can help (and they really help a lot) to make things better. But that does not count always to every train. The 4024 was a bit of a misfit/pariah (have not the correct wording for it). Not every train can have the full love by the group, some just have to be done (where i mostly come into play, as i can basically make everything work somehow ). QA then is a different thing. They don't have the need to know about what they test, and they often really do not know how the trains work or sound or whatever. And that's even good as it is. QA represents causal players. The stuff they test has to work, not to work prototypical or sound correct as the real thing (not from the sight of QA). QA is play-testing. Finding the blocking bugs. Not decide if audio is correct. Sometimes it's even really funny what QA comes up with ideas how a train should work. I'm probably talking to much already about all that. I will therefor stop it here. If you don't like the train, make me the guilty person, not DTG or their eployees.
Then it seems QA and beta testers need to be given a more thorough remit! Going back to my earlier analogy, if I was testing a BR Class 26 that DTG had made and it sounded like a GM instead of a Sulzer, my first report would be it is unacceptable. The fact a casual player won't know or care should not be a factor in that. Yes EMU's there is possibly a little more latitude (at times my hybrid Yaris sounds like an Electrostar) but should still bear some resemblance to the actual train.
Hmm, where I work, QA doesn't work the same way then. And as someone who is in QA and works with a beta testing team as well, I personally make sure to remind the group to test specific details. Maybe this should be done between DTG and said beta testing team.
Pretty sure they have huge lists of what to test. But not what you might expect. I read the QA issues every day and they often don't include specific train stuff, "just" game-play problems. "This buttons does not what expected, make it doing the expected things". Or "This lever does not make sound, make it do sound". But there would be never a "This lever does make the wrong sound, make it the right sound". That happens very very rarely as the most testers don't know about trains that deep. It would be impossible to get a group of QA testers that all know exactly how trains works. The few people who really know it and are able to reproduce it in the DLCs are really limited number all over the planet. I would not put them into a QA tester group. I would rather like to see them making the trains happen. But anyways. It gives definitely no outcome to discuss all that here. Some might know how such productions work, some not, others compare with totally different work, and what not. There will be no "right" solution for anyone. I't not an easy job to recreate trains, not at all.
I think to say the audio is ‘acceptable’ because ‘most’ people don’t care is a really bad and very disappointing approach to developing a product. Most people don’t care about a buildings foundations, but that doesn’t mean they can be substandard. Reading through the posts on this thread, it’s quite bizarre that those involved in development don’t realise this. They obviously don’t care enough about the quality to do anything ‘outside the box’, but just pick what seems to be a random sound set from another train.
Yes, that is my take away of this situation. I think TSW has its prioraties not set to what I expect. Given their history with train sound, this will not change. So again. I am glad I haven't invested into the new stuff.
I agree with you, having spent most of my career in QA, it doesn't sound like any QA team I've ever worked in. Maybe it's different in the games industry. However to give the QA Team the benefit of the doubt. We don't know how much stuff actually gets reported but is never fixed. At one of my past employers, they would put stuff live almost regardless of the state it was in and deal with the consequences as they had paid out a lot in advertising for a specific launch date. I used to get bored of being asked to explain why issues weren't found in QA when they were all documented but just hadn't been fixed and the management had gone ahead anyway. Fortunately my current team is the opposite and aims to fix everything we know about as we are not so tied to a specific date.
I read "volunteers" and "casual gamers". That's the moment you should realise not to blame the QA testers?
Yeah, you just don't want to understand what was said. Reading all these things tends me often to ask myself (and i'm a really sensible person in that respect) "Why should i do that stuff already. There are really better and easier ways to make money". If only a few of the other devs would think that way and react the "wrong" way with leaving the company, there would be no TS at all, because the hand full of people, who are able to make the trains happen, is absolutely limited and they do not grow on trees. I personally really know that it is not always the best what comes out, but mostly the only way to hold it to live at all. But, from this discussion and the opinions it seems better to say "no" from now on when getting asked to make the impossible trains possible. Seems you really want that.
I think there is some logic to be found in not taking on impossible development? Have you really made the impossible, possible when you don’t actually end up with the thing you were trying to do?
I guess at this point it's really time to give the floor over to DTG (and Maik your input is welcome and informative at least as to how the situation has arisen) as to what their plans are to deliver better sounds. Though given the ongoing Class 700 situation, not too optimistic.
Audio takes a lot of time, a lot of time to get it correct. Knowing DTG and their fast paced release schedule I'm actually rather impressed with most audio these days.
Actually my daily work i do, mostly. But seems wrong. I need to stop that. What means at least, no further trains. Any train is an impossible thing to recreate.
Well I believe it does something at least. I think your responses should give DTG themselves a better look or evaluate on their testing processes. As memc83 said, accepting thing as they are and not really care about what they're testing is indeed a very disappointing thing to read. No one says it is easy. It is definitely not easy - I do it on my free time too. But if you're making something that you're expecting people to pay for, it will be obvious that people will want to buy something with good quality - meaning not just good eye-candy models and graphics but everything else like gameplay, simulation and of course, sounds. Also Maik, I think you're taking this way too much personally and somehow keep on giving silly reasons to stand on your decisions, which aren't really valid as shown evidence ( the videos of Talent 1 sounds ). I know some people have really harsh ways to provide constructive feedback ( and often not actually constructive but more like destructive or simply rude ). The problem is that you're given good example of what the thing sounds like and you come here telling us that it doesn't matter because internally ( QA, beta testers, I don't know who else ) no one really found it to be a problem. But clearly the community doesn't agree with that and you can't tell us we're not right on this specific case, we've proven the reason of the complaint with examples.
I think Maik really did, what was possible and DTG had asked for. So I guess this question should be answered with yes. Is that to the standard some, me included, want? No, and I strongly blame DTG for that. And since this is not for the first time, we shouldn't be surprised. It boils down to the lack of communication, probably poor planning and other prioritys ( I think of game play or something like that before sound becomes an issue). We, who are upset have more realism and immersion as priority. That is what I'm reading from this and many other situations like this in the past years now.
The point I was driving at it that there’s been a massive lack of foresight here. Why on earth was it decided to try and make an obscure variant of rolling stock, if it wasn’t actually possible to do so? In any case it doesn’t matter, this conversation is pointless, DTG in all likelihood wont do anything about it now. If the people are happy with what it is, then let it be. It’s clear what TSW is for & it ain’t for the authenticity it claims to be.
It's not the case. The train exists, looks fantastic, it moves, it has sound. Yeah, it's not 100 accurate, but also not 100% impossible. These things often are compromises. No bad plannings here. There was just one or two things that went the bad way, but that does not hold back the development of it at all. You forget that it is not only the train. There is a route around it. And a game around that. And other things around all that. If you would decide to say "stop it now because 1% of information is missing" then you would be a really bad decision maker and your company would be broke fast.
Thats kinda the crux of the issue though isn’t it, it’s not just 1%. Every other caveat of TSW still exists regardless of this. The whole point is that there are many other problems which can be overlooked, as you can still look forward to having an enjoyable experience with some other part of the content. For some that experience is the scenery, for others it’s the timetable, and then for some it’s operating a faithfully recreated train.
Yeah, it's different for everyone. At the end we still have a usable and enjoyable product on what lots of people have lots of hours of fun game-play with. That's is what counts.
Maik, I just want to say that your posts, being from someone who develops trains from the bottom up and knows exactly what's involved, are extremely valuable.
I don't think anyone is on the verge of cancelling their pre-order for TSW4, it's just disappointing and it would be nice to hear from DTG what their plans are for an upgrade. No one doubts Vorarlberg will be a superb route, the first of its kind in TSW. But it has blunted the edge slightly and one can't help wonder what else has been compromised to get TSW4 and its content to the finish line. What we need for this route is a nice old fashioned ÖBB 1089 and ÖBB 1189 Krokodils and some vintage stock to go with them.
They are even more impossible to create And for the "problem" discussed here, i'm pretty sure no one cries about a week after release because most players will spend their hours into the free-roam mode in the actual timetables because that makes so much fun, regardless of what sounds the train uses that you try to fiddle through the dense traffic.
A few of us will be bringing in the 101 plus the 110 and N-stock too. What better way to enjoy the scenery that with a loud electric locomotive!
All I'm interested in at this point is, how DTG is adressing this issue and after that I will wait for the next good route I want to drive. I hope it will not take too long.
A bit insulting to say I don’t want to understand I understand perfectly well. TSW is advertised as being a ‘highly realistic and detailed rail sim’, yet it’s not is it? Not when incorrect sounds are used? I fully appreciate real sounds can’t always be acquired - in those cases should those trains be included? I’m not so sure. Not unless DTG changes its highly realistic and detailed mantra for the game. It seems odd that a train won’t be included if a license isn’t available for the unit but is included even if the correct sound can’t be sourced. I’ve still pre-ordered TSW 4, but don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.
Two completely different things to cope with. The one can ruin the company in a glimpse of a finger snip, the other is just a disappointment for some players that causes some loud spoken opinions on the forums (and some calls for a boycott and such curious things from peoples minds).
During the reveal and roadmap it was never mentioned about not being able to get the sounds for 4024.As a matter of fact it was mentioned on the reveal that “several trips were made to Austria to get reference material,OBB have been nice, provided us with lots of information, easy to deal with, it’s been really easy and nice.” With all that said we would had assumed that the correct sounds were obtained. I just wish this was mentioned and DTG was transparent about it. Would I had pre-ordered knowing what I know now, maybe, maybe not. The point is during the reveal they talked about Antelope trip, obtaining sounds, and on LNER why the 801 was chosen since the 800 was not available. So when is mentioned that several trips to Austria were made,OBB was very helpful and easy to work with.you selling it as there are no issues, when if fact they are. Some players look for visuals,others looks for timetable accuracy, and for some ,sounds are the most important part . I have preorder the game and plan on enjoying it. I just wish DTG was more transparent. This should had been mentioned from the beginning I’m sure most would had looked past it. But at least they would had been informed about it before hand.
What I don't seem to understand about this sound discussion is who here hears the difference if not pointed out by someone else? I don't seem to understand what the issue is. If you are a train driver I understand. If you live in Austria I would understand. If you own this model of train and you drive it every day in your backyard I would understand. But I personally would need to take this train next time I'm in Austria to find out I was lied about the train sounds all along
