Tsw, Na Freight, And Mountain Routes...

So, at this point in TSW's life, we have some sort of representation of NA freight in TSW. However, at this point most of the routes seem to follow a similar trend.....

-Oakville (Light switching route in Canada)
-Sand Patch Grade (Double track main thru the mountains)
-Clinchfield (Vintage Single track main with branch lines thru the mountains)
-Cane Creek (Single track branchline in Utah)
-Sherman Hill (Double/Triple track main over a hill)
-Horseshoe Curve (Triple track main over a mountain)
-Cajon Pass (Double/Triple track main thru a pass, with some flat desert)

And that's most of these routes are double track mainlines, where the main feature is taking a modern freight train over a mountain or pass. In other words, to the average player, you are pretty much selling a similar experience, but just in a different part of the country with a different operator. And even when you look at train siming as a whole, for some reason most developers keep putting out routes in similar areas or same experiences, and it makes me wonder if the route names sell? Is it the operators? Alot of the same routes pop up in every train sim that has US freight......

Seems like alot of people in TSW that want US freight, want some famous routes, the 3 main examples being Marias, Donner, and Tehachapi.....

Marias Pass has been in.....
Microsoft train simulator/Open Rails
Trainz
and Train Simulator Classic

Donner Pass has been in....
Microsoft train simulator/Open Rails
Run 8
Trainz
and Train Simulator Classic

Tehachapi Pass has been in....
Microsoft train simulator/Open Rails
Run 8
Trainz
and Train Simulator Classic

And it makes me beg the question....

Do we really NEED another North American freight route for TSW that is mostly a notch 8 slugfest thru a mountain? What does it really get us in terms of gameplay? Just more running heavy freight up a hill with little thought? Even if you change the era to a more vintage one (Given with the lack of support for Clinchfield, will probably never happen), does anything really change?

One of the more interesting routes for TSC is the Montana Hi-Line route. While the scenery itself is pretty much Montana plains and farmland, the route keeps you on your toes as you have to manage the constant up and down grades of the line, not to mention the route has a much higher trackspeed than a mountain route (Lots of people that complain about NA freight is that they are slow and boring)

So then again, do we REALLY need another mountain freight route for TSW?

 

No, I think the three that you mention plus the Canadian passes are a bit of a snooze fest, to be honest. I think we need more industrial routes, most of which are probably in the South-East and Mid-West.

 

I personally love a challenge and having lots to do. I love switching compared to just doing mainline runs. That is why I enjoy sand patch grade and clinchfield. I would rather have a sawtooth than a simple up and down.

 

would be cool to see an electric freight route, but i dont know enough about american railroads to make a good suggestion.

 

Any electric freight route would have to be historical.

 

The Iowa Traction Railroad says "Hi" (Though probably not feasible for a TSW route)

 

It's hard to narrow down what the best direction is, because everyone has different opinions about what they like and don't like which is why having a variety is nice.
Personally, I think the biggest thing missing for US content is a route the features both passenger and freight to a high degree, like a lot of the German routes where there is a really good mix. There are many good options for this IMO. If you exclude anything for Chicago Metra, the two highest on my list would be:
Amtrak Capital Corridor: Oakland Jack London Square-Roseville (107 Miles)
CSX RF&P Sub: Washington DC-Richmond (109 Miles)

Don't know anything about licensing, just using these as examples of what I think a good hybrid passenger/freight route would be. I know those are both longer than any other routes out there, but unfortunately I think that with how big and spread out the US is, eventually you need that to make something feel "complete". Both of those routes have a good variety of passenger traffic, a good amount of freight traffic to mix in, and yards/stations at each end that make a run feel complete instead of stopping in a random place. They also both have some higher speeds so that negates the complaint about slow US trains as you mentioned.

I'd love to see other famous mountain passes in the game too, but I think getting a good hybrid passenger/freight route will be awesome for US content. Especially now that there are a good amount of routes for freight to layer in from if they don't plan on making any new US freight locomotives anytime soon and wanted to focus on keeping them more as layers.

 

I voted "other" until DTG commit to upgrading the core of NA freight operations:

Accurate simulation of MU/DPU operations.

Cab signalling where appropriate

Consistent physics across all routes/locos

More accurate variety of rolling stock across the NA routes (i.e. most trains are not a unit block of one TOC).

More variety/flexibility to timetable services to include local trains with pickups and setouts. Maybe free roam will help in this area.

Working hump/classification yards

 

Did they run the Challenger locomotives on Sherman Hill during the era it’s set ? That’s something with US freight I’ve always wanted to do, apart from that I don’t see why to do away with the big named routes for the most part.

 

I enjoy US freight alot but I'm ignorant of the real routes.
Didn't vote but definitely not reduced to 'only layers to passenger routes'.

 

DTG, please bring Kicking Horse Pass to TSW!

 

Yes and no, UP 3985 was part of UP's steam heritage fleet till 2010, when it was sidelined with mechanical issues. It sat around the UP shops till they recently donated it to RRHMA with their DDA40X and 5511.

Outside of excursions, 3985 did lead a stack train in 1990, as a Special request for APL, which ran 3985 from Cheyenne to North Platte, the other way from Sherman Hill

 

I'd like to see some long flat routes that are 50+mph just to vary it up. Mountain routes can be fun but the slow speeds get old really quick. (I also have issues with the poor DB fan audio and the fact that the engines are at idle with the DB engaged when they shouldn't be, but that's my pedantic audiophile-self talking). Honestly, some of the CSX routes in Georgia available for Run8 look nice. I've only seen them played by others, but they are high speed freight with some smaller hills that still make you stay aware.

Though if I'm being honest, I don't really care about the route offered, I'd like to see US freight operations in itself get an upgrade. A-B mainline freight gets very boring, especially when TSW offers nothing in the way of dynamic events or anything to make each service unique (though this isn't specific to freight).
- Implement more responsibilities a conductor would do. Hooking up airhoses, including managing the anglecocks when coupling/uncoupling, placing the EOTD. Being able to bleed the air and needing to activate a few handbrakes when dropping cars off. This would also help switching be more realistic since you wouldn't have the train brake available unless you hooked the train up, and would make kicking cars possible. I really think this would elevate TSW to a new playing field.
- Include sections that have local industry operations - a full cycle, take the train to the industry, drop off cars and pick up outbound ones and take them back.
- Proper DPU support
- Fixing the brake physics so that air recharge time is actually realistic. I posted something in a thread last year after TSW3 comparing the times to Run8, and TSW is about twice as slow even from a simple minimum (6-lb) reduction

And to expand on the local industries thing: The one thing I don't like about Run8 is you're entirely on your own with how to build trains and run them (I don't do multiplayer), but a few months ago I was able to figure out the L-CAL0611 train and ran that - building the train in the hump yard, then running the industries, and bringing it back to Barstow. I did little bits at a time over about a week, and honestly that was more fun to me than anything freight in TSW.

Although I still generally hate switching (mostly slow speed thing), it could be improved in TSW if the objective stop points were removed for intermediate steps, i.e., instead of couple to these cars -> move forward to here and stop -> back up and couple to these; it was just couple cars on track 5 to track 6, etc. Too many times stop markers are placed too far forward, when in reality you'd just pull ahead enough to clear the switch and then back up. Either that or just give me the ability to skip the current objective so I don't need to follow the stop points, but the AI and less-experienced players still have what they need.

 

I essentially agree with all of this. I would especially draw attention to the local trains/pickups and setouts/working yards. Although we are to understand that most players don't enjoy switching (although I do, go figure), the way switching is presented in TSW is rudimentary at best. I do concede that these kind of operations may be impossible with TSW4 as it stands right now.

 

How did the RF&P fit with the route decision matrix you guys use to chose routes?

 

Someone preferred flat terrain freight run at 50 mph (or more)? How about BNSF Southern Transcon across NM & AZ, that would be great option also.

 

How about back dating pre-merger, late Santa Fe Era, with Superfleet Warbonnets?

 

Me personally I like more freights routes that are set more in the past, when locomotives weren’t as high powered and you actually have a somewhat challenge unless you’ve got 4-6 engines. Clinchfield RR has become one of my favorite freight routes because it’s got several branch lines and tough gradients on some of them. Something about routes set in the past give me a certain feel. Take Saluda Grade for instance, it’s known across the country for being the steepest main line railroad and it was pretty neat to witness a train go over the Grade. Me personally I’d like to see it be made by Dovetail or someone Recreates it in the new PC Editor for TSW4

 

As much as I love industrial switching, I think the current method of switching just isn't really that fun or realistic. There's no orders to tell you what needs to go where; there doesn't seem to be a "reason" for why the cars are being moved around. wxtr7 basically hit the nail on the head. I would imagine I'm not alone in wanting to see the first-mile/last-mile aspect of freight railroading better represented in TSW, although it does appear to be a bit niche, especially for the American audience, and it depends on the balance between hardcore realism and simplicity to allow new players to easily get the hang of it. At the very least, I think a poll would be helpful to see if there's enough demand for a complete switching revamp like this. As it stands right now, I prefer to stick to the A-B mainline runs, but I would definitely spend a lot more time switching if it integrated some of the concepts mentioned above like more .

 

I definitely see why making a steep route such as Tehachapi Pass would make sense for the game, it’s the name recognition that interests lots of railfans (that’s the route with the cool loop! woah!). But personally I was crossing my fingers hoping that it wouldn’t be announced as one of the routes for TSW4. The formula of American freight trains going down a steep gradient is getting fairly old right now.

There’s nothing wrong with releasing one of those iconic steep routes every now and then, I wouldn’t oppose an announcement of Marias Pass sometime! I just think TSW really should go with something more exciting such as the Arizona Divide or Montana Hi-Line before going with yet another steep freight route. I’m especially hoping for more future routes to feature freight running alongside commuter trains. Just something that allows the freight trains to get to full speed for once, going down steep hills is too slow and too stressful!

Also: I would LOVE to see some short line railroads in the game. Going to various industries to pick up/drop off freight sounds lovely.

 

Great era but with current DTG policy (the one that say "one route one new locomotive") What's the best loco candidate to represent that Santa Fe's era?

 

2 locos in game can already be reused for this era....

1st off Santa Fe's SD40-2's could be used as filler locos, not the most exciting, but they were still around in the yellow and blue in the 90's.


The other loco that can be reused is the Santa Fe's C40-8W's, they had 152 of them, though the last 24 are the upgraded C41-8W models.

This loco would just really need some minor changes from the CSX model to represent the ATSF Superfleet Dash 8's.


Outside of that, DTG can go with the following for new power....

The GP60M/B for some 4 axle power


The FP45....


The B40-8W (The 4 axle cousin of the C40-8W)


The only other locos aside from those are the very late ordered SD75's and Dash 9's.

 

Milwaukee RR Little Joe and you should do St Paul's Pass 1.7% gradient Eastbound over the Bitterroot mountains or Pipestone Pass their Continental Divide Crossing. If we have loco Tug of Wars Milwaukee RR Little Joe should equal or surpass a West German Krokodil these are DB BR 193 alt 194 or the Silesian mountain loco DB BR191 alt.
Here are the possible German equivalents to the Little Joe

 

I mainly play NA freight stuff and I would agree that the hour and twenty minute climbs at notch 8 and the hour long descents riding the dynamic brake is getting kind of stale. Add to that the issues with some services on Sand Patch, Sherman Hill and Horseshoe not being completable with any kind of snow on the ground is frustrating.

I don't know enough about real routes to have any specific route suggestions and I wouldn't suggest something flat and straight like a 50 mile version Oakville would be very fun but I would like to see something that is overall fast but with more smaller hills to keep you busy. The Barstow->Victorville part of Cajon Pass is kinda like that but the hills there are a little too small to make you work too much.

DW

 

It’s an interesting call. In an ideal world a freight route would cater for all tastes. Run 8 sort of caters for that with a choice of main line runs, switching out industry with the added incentive of persistent world progress, or running a hump yard.

There’s a couple of the old SIAM traffic control games I’d like to see in TSW. The old BN Funnel from Sandpoint to Spokane as it was in the early 90’s. Part single track, very heavily trafficked and some local traffic. Or part of the MPKS from St Louis to Kansas City. If we are going to get more mountain routes then it’s certainly time to look again at Canada, part of either the CP or CN routes across the mountains for a change of scenery.

Guess I don’t want to turn this into a wish list but the main thing is variety. Try and break up the Notch 8 20 MPH drag up the hill while I read a book or play on the tablet with something more interesting.

 

Distance of course becomes an issue. I just looked at Banff to Revelstoke which takes in the most interesting part of the CP (licence permitting) mountain section and it is over 280km!

My other example Sandpoint to Spokane is 76 miles which is still a tall order but there is nowhere substantial between the two cities to offer a logical break.

St Louis to Jefferson City is 120 miles with Jeff City to KC another 160 miles.

So I think we can see how something with a bit of mixed passenger and freight over a shorter distance is probably a better option. It will be interesting in that respect to see how AVL works out.

Thinking cap going on!

 

If my memory serve me well, BNSF Montana Hi-Line have that characteristic of sawthooth pattern grade and 60 mph run for freight. It's been a while since i played the TS Classic. But lets hear others suggestion.

 

Taking a look at that large catalog of American routes in Train Simulator Classic, I found a few that I think would be nice to mix up the US freight selection in TSW:

- Granger Heartland; a 67 mile long route from Kansas City - Topeka (the midwest hasn’t been represented in TSW yet!) featuring the Union Pacific Railroad running up to 60 trains a day! Freight trains can go up to 60 mph on this route.

- Mon Line (aka Norfolk Southern Coal District); there’s coal mines on the route, as such, coal trains are indeed present. I’d assume other forms of freight traffic are present too. The line runs 85 miles through rural Pennsylvania from CP Bell to Waynesburg, although the TSC route was 50 miles from Bailey Mine to West Brownsville with a 10 mile branch included. Apparently West Brownsville contains street running!

- Hanover Subdivision; a 62 mile route that would see the return of CSX to the game, running through Maryland and Pennsylvania. Features both mainline running alongside your local trains. Who doesn’t like some good variety with those lineside industries?

(I also think some more urban options would be cool to see for US freight. These get a brief mention because there’s the issue of licensing for commuter railroads but I like the thought of The Racetrack (Chicago-Aurora), the Seattle Subdivision (Seattle-Lakewood), and Miami-West Palm Beach)

Sorry if this just sounds like stuff I should’ve just chucked into the suggestions forum

 

I think a freight route starting from Chicago would be a nice addition. There would be plenty of options there, and great way to introduce the Midwest to Train Sim World.

For example, the Metra UP West line. The UP freight traffic would be huge, and passenger fans would be happy as well. The route from end to end would be about 40 miles.

 

Or how about the pre-2022 South Shore Line? Chicago to Michigan City gives 57 miles of diesel freight and electric passenger services, along with two miles of street running.

 

Ah, if Metra would just give up that license, it would open up a lot of possible passenger/freight routes in the Chicago and NE Illinois region. All within the mileage limit and, like The Racetrack, could include commuter, UP/BNSF/CN freight and Amtrak long distance AI. Sweet dreams

 

So actually with this route you could run it all the way out to Rochelle where UP's Global III yard is. That would bring the route to 80 miles and it would include the UP yards of Global III, West Chicago Yard, Proviso which also has Global II, and Global I (potentially its a little bit south on the Aurora line). Going out to Rochelle gives you a longer run for freight into and out of Chicago and there are also a few shuttles from Global I & II out to Global III that you could run the whole line on. In addition the famous Double Diamond at the Rochelle Railroad Park would get to be featured on the route which could be a fun spot for in game rail fanning with BNSF AI traffic. It would be an awesome route right in that 60-80 mile range Matt talked about, just really need that Metra license to make it perfect haha

 

Oh, yes. Recently, I’ve been thinking about re-installing TSW2020 just for a stint on the GP38-2 on the original NEC. The switching and local duties on there had a lot of charm and I do miss the old NEC for that alone.

 

Is Rochelle, IL UP Global Yard Hump Operated or flat switching if Hump Operated it needs a new physics mechanism just like Barstow Cajon Pass has in real life a Hump. for the German and Austrian routes you are looking at the following yards that are Hump Operated ÖBB Voralbergbahn Dreiländerbahn Arlbergbahn Schnellfahrstrecke Rosenheim Innsbruck Hall in Tirol ÖBB Westbahn Salzburg-Wien Linz Wels Salzburg Gnigl & Wien Kledering Nahverkehr Dresden Dresden Friedrichstadt Rapid Transit S-Bahn Leipzig Rbf Leipzig Engelsdorf Rhein Ruhr Osten Ruhr-Sieg Nord Hagen Vorhalle since these yards operate this probably the same as Union Pacific Global yard Rochelle Illinois hump switching

The first route is in train simulator classic the Lake Louise Revelstoke Route 155 mi 250 km over the Kicking Horse Pass think of it as combining the climb over the Appalachian Mountains on horseshoe curve and Sand Patch Grade with the Physics of Sherman Hill/Cajon Pass. How about the Canadian national Yellowhead Pass that way we can have Oakville subdivision locomotive layer onto it

 

I actually did that this morning and to say I’ve had some fun messing around with the freight is an understatement. Doing them gives me lots of fond memories of doing them in TSW2020. Makes me wish Dovetail had included it in NY-Trenton that way that section of the NEC was a little bit longer and had a little bit more variety The menu music is such a banger IMO.

 

A lot of potential, especially with CSX' (ex-RF&P) massive Acca yard at Richmond, and Potomac and Ivy City yards and Union Station at the other end. Plus the iconic DC skyline! However, without VRE (Virginia Railway Express) it would be a bit empty.

 

This is another one, though I fear the massive yard at North Platte would bring TSW to its knees and might have to be off stage. I actually bought this DVD some years ago and can affirm the route looks really busy. Scenery wise undulating low hills should not tax the route builders too much.

Union Pacifics Triple Track Main DVD(Union Pacifics Triple Track Main DVD) - Pentrex Train Video DVD

 

Going back to the BNSF Southern Transcon....



I'm not sure if the Seligman Sub would be viable due to length. Milepost's version from Willaims to Winslow in TSC is over 90 miles, which is longer than Matt's ideal length unless you cut the route back.

And while the route does climb over the highpoint of Arizona, the speed limit doesn't drop below 40 between Yampi and Winslow

 

There is another option for it Northeast Corridor Newark, NJ New Haven,CT with E33 E44s set in the early Amtrak era 1971-1976 with Penn Central running freight there Amtrak Passenger services

 

Technically the Union Pacific Maryville Sub, would work but if DTG brings it to TSW, it would actually need effort put into it (The TSC one is such a waste)

I don't see this being an exciting route, running nothing but coal trains up and down a line to and from the mine doesnt offer much variety.

 

This would be a good one and probably attainable even at 90 miles because there is really no urban scenery at all, which seems to be the most time intensive.

 

You still have Winsow, Flagstaff and Williams, though the mainline doesn't go thru Williams direct (BNSF has a line that diverges and goes to Phoenix thru here) Not to mention Amtrak closed the station at Williams Junction in 2018.

 

Blacknred81 what are your thoughts on the BNSF line between Spokane and Sandpoint? Its about 65-70 miles and if we ever get Superliners Spokane is where the Empire Builder splits/joins together so that could add some additional Amtrak playable services for the splitting/joining of the two trains. As far as I know that part of BNSF's northern transcon has never been replicated.

 

I have no knowledge on the Pacific North West

 

Okay, I think that would be a good one to look into as a suggestion.
Better yet.
I think Chemult, OR to Klamath Falls, OR could fit Matt's requested formula as well. Believe that is still part of UP's Cascade Sub? But not positive. It's 70-75 miles and a racetrack through the high country. BNSF has trackage rights there so that opens up playable layers for them and again SUPERLINERS would give us two Coast Starlight runs where its trucking along at 80mph. I think that would be a fun route with gentle grades, sweeping turns, and both UP and BNSF have yards in Klamath Falls.

 

Great thread and question. As someone who started this game mainly to play US freight (and now doesn’t play much of it) here are some thoughts:

- At the end of the day, this is a game, even if it’s a simulator, but not a job. Any type of route needs to have some kind of challenge or fun to be feasible.

- Mountain passes do that because one of the biggest challenges with a massive U.S. freight train (in real life and in game) is to learn how to properly get it up and down a grade.

- I’d like to see some more fast/flat sections but I don’t think an entire route of that would be widely popular. But if long/flat sections leading up to grades were included I think it would work (ie think Cumberland to Hyndman but bigger scale).

- I think the A to B of mainline freight would be greatly compliment if the routes they choose also have local industries for local trains, loading/unloading, etc. Doing an entire route of that stuff (ie Oakville) might not be the sweet spot but if it is included along a mainline freight route and/or a passenger route (like the UP services on Peninsula Corridor) I’d like that.

- As mentioned by Matt the big mountain passes are what grab most people on US freight. Everybody has heard of Cajon Pass or Stevens Pass or Horseshoe Curve.

- I’d also love to have some vintage routes especially 60s-70s but if Dovetail goes that way I hope they do the work to make the route look “right” with the grit and feel of that era (like they do with NTP, TVL, SOS, etc).

 

The only thing I know about the ore trains is that it is the former DM&I railroad, which the CN bought in 2004.



Tracing the line from one of the mines near Virginia to one of the docks in Duluth is about 75 miles, which falls into a reasonable category in terms of route length.

Also seems like CN does have a good mix of traffic out there along side the ore trains.


One interesting thing is CN's Proctor yard still has a turntable and a roundhouse that is still standing