Enough Is Enough!!!

No they don't, Surveyor is part of TS22. Surveyor 2 on the other hand is part of TS22 Plus, which is a subscription only edition of Trainz.

 

Yea I meant surveyor 2.0

 

Yes this map is accurate.
One problem of TSW is that route building is more time consumming, so routes are shorter.
Then only recently we have people outside DTG building routes for TSW (Just Trains being the last newcomer)

But globally yes, no way to drive ECML, or WCML in one session. And it will probably be still impossible in next years to come.

 

theirs a section of it in SOS Liverpool to Crewe. Set in 1958.

 

So that's still kind of no then

 

I'm with you 100 %. The problem is those unfixed bugs, not that they release a new version of the game.

There are no updates and if so, they are very, VERY late, only partial and sometimes also break stuff that already worked. And on top of that, they basically say: "We [the team responsible for fixing bugs in content you already paid for] suck at our job, you [players] always find some new bugs, so we give up and we won't be fixing anything at all [in the previously called Preserved collection]."
Core bug and issue fixes are being promised to us for years now, yet they never arrive. So I ask you again: what updates are you reffering to? Sorry to break it to you, but no major updates are coming anyway.

 

If DTG were leaving TSW2 and 3 in a good condition, there wouldn't be the vitriol about TSW4.

In isolation the TSW4 bundle is pretty good value. My reasons for pre-ordering it are;
1. This version has an Editor (for PC only, sorry to all the other users).
2. I can afford it at the moment, my wife's 2 months of unemployment has just finished in time for this and Cities Skylines 2.
3. I'm only buying modern routes like ECML, the Class 800 is an important piece of traction for a modern collection.
4. I appreciate that I said this before but if TSW4 doesn't perform better than TSW3 then I'm out.
5. The number of upcoming but unknown UK routes sucked me in. Surely it's going to be something I will be excited about this time??? [Hint for DTG East Anglia exists, come here sometime, it's a nice part of the country).

Reading some of the comments you're either a "DTG Fanboy" or anti-Dovetail. Nothing is that binary in real life.

For those who can't afford to buy brand new games at the moment, the TSW4 announcement was a kick in the teeth. But for those who think it's a rip-off, try running a car, owning a house or supporting a Premier League football club, I do all three and TSW4 is a drop in the ocean.

 

Really good post, but one thing troubles me, East Anglia…..Premier League football club, surely not ?

 

It might be a lot simpler - there are things more expensive than TSW4, I do have money for TSW4. I simply don't want to support a bad treatment of customers. I do that as much as possible. If a company treats its customers like this and lies to them on a regular basis, I am not buying, no matter how lucrative the offer sounds. If you do this with enough drops, you'll be surprised, how much money you can save.

You might do your own things, get cool-sounding DLCs with a ton of bugs, never to be fixed, up to you.

 

It's okay, I grew up in London and have supported Arsenal for 40 years so I do have a Premier League team to support.

Monder - Yes, I can totally understand that perspective, that's why I've cut back on buying DLC to just UK modern, electric routes as that's what I like driving. If TSW4 stutters and loads assets as badly as TSW3 and TSC, then I'm giving up for good. I can forgive TSC because it's so old.

 

I can't help but contrast TSW4 with the latest Run 8 route release - Horseshoe Curve. Now while R8 has features that TSW doesn't have, they are asking $40 for a route that, with the greatest respect, looks like it comes from the 2004 era of train simming, has already been done in MSTS and TSC and doesn't come with any additional rolling stock or locomotives - you need to buy that separately. That $40 is around £32 at current exchange rates, only £6 less than the massive bundle we are getting with TSW4.

 

I agree with all of this !
I am buying TSW4 , it’s great value. But a lot of people do not seem to understand that the main gripe is that DTG have made promises over the years to get other versions up to scratch and promised loads of updates but they have been forgotten. So the “if you don’t like it , don’t buy “ comment is redundant.
How long have we all been promised the Pennisula update for example ?
People just want a fair deal

 

I agree that not everything is binary . It’s not that simple

 

Actually, I don't think one should expect a bug free DLC. There is no such thing as a bug free software.

But! If there are bugs, that break the fun while gaming (fx. broken horns which sounds while driving, wrong stopping points, so scoring is broken, missing or strangly behaving passengers, etc etc etc) and they are not adressed properly or behind a paywall (tsw4), it really gets frustrating. The occasional glitch, crash or not that accurate train or scenery, I totally can forgive.

 

When we buy dlc, if we're smart, we've already factored in any bugs or other problems that will come with release.

The deluxe version of TSW4 is a bargain, considering the huge amount of content included. It's well worth the 53 bucks I paid, even though I know it won't be problem free and there will be an endless future of complaining, patches and fixes.

Software is a special case unlike, say, buying a car, TV or washing machine which you can expect to work perfectly out of the box.

So, my experience with TSW2/3 tells me that there will be issues with TSW4, hopefully minor and not affecting gameplay. But, as I say, I've already allowed for these bugs and I still think I got a good deal.

 

What I don´t understand is the fact that the community ist VERY active to report the bugs, on the forum and through tickets. We WANT that the game be better and we do our part.
We pay so we expect that the content has to be updated. Unfortunately I always have the impress that it is a second prority for DTG..
Except if an addon has major bad notations on STEAM...

 

Hi, Just want to say I am fully with you on what you say I said the same myself about TSW3 when again there was grumblings. Personally for me I was sort of one of them but not because of the routes or cost because again I thought TSW3 was a bargain so is TSW4 when you break the costs down like you mention,,,but the faults.
Now I don’t like getting into faults because like I have said in the past I’m not a computer expert or whizz when it comes to stuff like this.
I am a simple consumer and so will speak like one.
When TSW2 came out I was new to the franchise and I enjoyed the game but over time I noticed bugs which wasted a lot of time and ruined the game play experience,,,it was what it was.
Then I started to get into liveries and making them for CC this is where I had a lot of problems on TSW2.
Now when TSW3 came out I was over the moon,,,I pre ordered with the Hope the issues that made the game unbearable at times especially with CC was sorted. They wasn’t and today as I try place all my old work up a year later I’m faced with the same issues same stress and the same question why I am doing this and will I buy TSW4?.
And I think this is where the problem I feel most are at. It’s not the cost,,,it’s not the DLCs well for me anyway it’s that lack of trust that all will be fine from a simple consumer point of view. I know the game is a simulator,,,I done my home work to drive all locos,,bar German.
But will the game be fixed once and for all. Having faith in purchasing a DLC to make liveries for CC and find it still don’t allow the layers to sit right so my money essentially was wasted because I’m not using for why I bought it. Because I’m sure many have been faced with the same or similar situations.
So we could be here all day talking about everyones individual faults but again DTG as a developer and I/we consumers need to know that this whole new fresh core TSW4 will be the end of it all. To end nasty comments about DTG,,and end the Issues with all faults that effect the gaming experience,,,as it daft to expect everything all the routes one wants,as I’m not one of them. No I as I a consumer want to play a game with no issues that distract from me deleting it from my drive and not playing it for a year due to the amount of frustration.
My fear is do I spend the money,? because it is worth it as again looking at from the way your comment puts it that’s not my issue.
I think the issue is from a consumer point of view will we finally get on this next gen platform the title we have all been waiting for,,,as we thought we may get a little of that in TSW3 but we didn’t and I could understand from a developer point of view why.
I’m say that yes I will buy TSW4 after all but from a developer point of view for DTG if they get it wrong this time will it be the end. The cost not the issue,,they got that right. It’s the gaming experience that’s all wrong. That’s what we need fixing and they can’t let us down.
Only time will tell. I need to buy as PS5 first tho,,,thanks DTG,,,thanks a lot. Just kidding,,,I needed one anyway. Not your fault.

 

In terms of paying again, DTG have got nothing on the cheek of N3V.

They just re-released Trainz 22 as a Platinum Edition, believe it includes their improved version of Surveyor. However from what I can see, unless you sign up to their subscription service, you have to buy the updated version all over again for an eye watering £55. Considering the first incarnation cost that (I waited for it at £31 on Steam), little short of outrageous. At least DTG increased the version from 3 to 4, including masses of content and all the new tools.

 

Thing is, there are other ways they could have gone about this whole thing without paywalling future updates (and DLC) and that is the most CRITICAL thing I am annoyed/concerned with. At the very minimum I would maybe have considered a small core fee if not the core edition of the game being free. They charge about, on average, the price of a non-AAA game for some of their DLC, they'd make their money back quickly once people bought the new DLC anyways. It really baffles me if I am honest and it would have avoided a lot of the friction.

If we get to Aug/Sept next year ahd TSW5 comes out, i think we're going to see double the amount of people annoyed. Last time when TSW3 came out, there was a small but vocal group of people, myself included, who disagreed with the business practise. I am willing to put money on it that next year if they pull the same thing again then we're going to see even more people be vocal.

 

How much money are we talking about it?

 

Just because N3V is doing it, it does not mean DTG should do it as well. I mean there is a reason Trainz is pretty much dead nowdays... Their business model just does not make sense and the core game barely offers anything worth paying for.

With each re-release they try to introduce new features and sell them as the next big thing, then barely any content makes use of these features - like the procedurally generated junctions since T:ANE.

Now that I mention it, TSW seems to be going the same direction as well. Introduce new features, then don't use them (AI using horn, conductor mode, reflective signage, proper headlights, fixed wheel motion blur, etc)... And with these constant re-releases and locking features behind a paywall, like the editor and what they originally intended to do with Creators Club, TSW is becoming more and more like Trainz. Speeding towards a slow death, I assume.

 

Your totally valid concerns aside, that HSC route for Run8 is tempting me, though.

Especially if they extend east and west- I don't think Pittsburgh has ever been properly represented in a train sim, and as a local i'd absolutely buy anything around Philly. Since Skyhook's HSC looks like another fire and forget, i might have to give it a shot

But why can't it have TSW graphics lol- it's really painful when it's a direct comparison. Though, tbf they really nail the headlamp flare, still which TSW can't manage.

 

It's already been confirmed in another thread that performance will be the same as TSW3.

 

That isn't nor should not be a surprise

 

Unless you turn volumetrics on, presumably. That always hurts performance.

 

Ah yes. So either same or worse performance

 

Pretty much. As I've said before, TSW4 is still essentially TSW3 (or TSW2 to some extent) at its very core. So unless they fixed any optimisation issues from TSW3, expect to see them in TSW4

 

I hope everyone on the forum reads this, it's the best post I've seen here in a long time.

 

I'd like to see someone try to defend DTG management over this:

So I went to try and play Rapid Transit last night, i don't have a lot of foreign DLC so figured I'd give it a shot. Couldn't get the train out of traction lock, spent about 20 mins trying to get it to work, reloading etc and what not. It wouldn't budge.

I bounce onto the forums and low and behold, its been broken since being "ported" to TSW3 from TSW2. What makes this more hilarious is that the DLC is still for sale at FULL PRICE:

But wait, there's more!

If you want to play this DLC you have to buy TSW4 (according to the TSW4 Roadmap) or you don't get the patch that fixes this. Obviously its great that it's being fixed, purely out of principal, but paywalled? Ridiculous...

Again this is why I stress that TSW4 NEEDS to have a free core update.

If you're taking bug fixes for content pre-TSW4 and placing it behind a paid product, do you really think its fair to expect people to have to pay for something they have effectively already paid for? Especially at full price? They've known this for a year and yet never took the DLC off of sale.

Seriously DTG...


Edit: Posted wrong screenshot, replaced with correct one.

 

Things like these are easily identifiable ways that DTG could clean up its image. It simply boggles the mind why a company chooses to make the wrong decisions over and over again and gains a bad reputation. They built a solid core foundation for a product and it feels like the developers are being stifled by clueless higher ups that couldn't give a damn about overall company reputation. I have chatted with so many people outside the walls of this forum that would never touch TSW simply because "it's DTG" and that tag comes with a poor reputation. As is always the case, the lower level employees are the ones out there needing to go out and defend poor decisions by higher ups. Never get upset at the individual developers / community team. Feel sorry for them.

 

Wow. I'm so glad I never bought Rapid Transit for TSW3 when it was on sale.

This is a perfect example of why many of us are frustrated.

 

Rapid Transit should be permanently in the bargain bin at £2.99!

 

I don't think rapid transit is that bad of a route. It's the 182s cab car that is the problem, but the route is still interesting.

 

The trouble is that we have such niche interests sometimes. Some people might buy it just for that. I know if there was a route that had the class 421 from the 80s it'd be an instant buy fior me, but many people are probably going the class 42 what?
If that route functioned perfectly except for that one traction unit, or even elements of that one traction unit, it would be useless to me and a waste of money. As a result, it all needs to work, not just most of it.

 

The problem with RT is not just the Dosto issue, for which a solution now seems to be coming. it's the fact the 1442 - the train you spend 90% of the time driving the route in - has virtually no sound at all. No traction whine, no track rumble/clatter, nothing. It's like you are running the route in a (silent) hovercraft.

 

Absolutely this.

I think the Unreal Engine was a great pick, it makes sense. It's a great base for building games around etc and it sounds like they have the right team building the physics engine etc and making a sim out of the gaming engine. Everyone on the immediate dev team is also doing an incredible job.

That all being said, and as you point out, this hard work is constantly and is consistently being undermined by really poor executive decisions somewhere high up in the DTG chain of command.

I want to make it absolutely clear that the reason I take the time to make such comments over the years and recently is because I believe this product has GREAT potential and I want to see it succeed without messing us about as customers. Simply put, I just care.

Don't get me wrong, there's people who don't seem bothered by this and power to them. However, its incredibly important companies, who take our hard earned cash, are held accountable and are at least being responsible with how they conduct business. Some people are more conscious of this, others are don't feel inclined to care and that's simply fair enough.

 

It doesn't even end there. An update in Novemberish or so added red lights to each and every station regardless of traffic. You'll be hitting a 500hz magnet just before every stop.

 

Not gonna defend DTG over RT but one thing is not really clear about your post. You make it sound like you are new to RT? Or are you making an example as a new user to TSW? I buy almost every DLC, if it's German I'll buy it for sure even if the reviews aren't that spectacular but one German route is not in my collection and that is RT. Even the latest video of The Trainspotter From Tauranga couldn't get to me say "I don't care, let's complete the German collection". So if it's an example for a new user to DTG buying old DLC; Yes you probably bought the worst DLC and won't be coming back but if you yourself really bought this in 2023 I would think it is very funny as you clearly not do your research. Even I stay away from this route and that is saying a lot

 

Never had any issues with Rapid Transit, except for the suicide passengers walking onto the track near Dessau and that has been fixed. Sometimes the handbrake on Talent 2 is engaged at the beginning, sometimes the pantograph is not up; these are all things I check when setting up, just like with any train. I have found Rapid Transit to be one of the more enjoyable German Routes with its variety.

PC Ryzen 7 / RTX 3060

 

Looked through all the material (having played TSC / TSW for many years).
My understanding was the selling point of TSW3 was the Training Center, providing a base route that would provide a more suitable base game for the long term and we wouldn't be in an annual paid update situation. That was clearly wishful thinking.
The TSW4 pre-order value is average, maybe good if you are interested in more than one route. For a 'new game' there is basically nothing being offered to help with the longstanding performance issues / stuttering. Even DX12 and proper upscaling support would be a start.

I pre-ordered TSW3 without much hesitation but won't be bothering for TSW4, since the record shows that it will now be 'legacy' within a year. I suppose I will wait for price reductions and see if there is any appeal for me then, and this is coming from someone who is very interested in the ECML route.

 

Agreed, I did have some hesitation even on TSW3 but when it was shown that it worked and there were a few very nice Routes released with it, I gave in. However this past summer was a debacle with the stifling silence and people figuring it all out from leaks anyway. I also have interest in ECML but absolutely nothing else that I see offered with TSW4. I have all the Routes from 2017 onward and have played many hours, but I'm not in favor of the new paywall pattern at all.

 

Peculiar. Is this on TSW3 or TSW2?

 

I'm new to these forums but I can already see that some need to to take a a bit of a breather and not get so worked up over what is essentially just bit of fun.

I have several DGT games, mostly fishing and rail titles, and am fully aware of some of their more suspect practices. However I do, in the main, I enjoy their games.

In all honesty my biggest gripe with DTG is their habit of, locking core updates, needlessly, behind pay walls. If they offered free core updates and relied on dlc to generate income I'm sure the community would be far happier than it currently is.

Releasing TSW4 only a year after the previous version is understandably is bit of pill to swallow when, surely, any performance improvements could and should have been included in a free update, rather than asking people buy essentially the same game again.

However for all the naysayers there seems to be plenty of people happy enough to buy a rejigged version of the same game again. A classic example would be certain EA sports titles where some buy the same, slightly modified, game year after year.

I'm just saying that by now most people who have bought one or more DTG titles should be aware of their playbook, and not get bent out of shape just because they don't fix every bug and cease to support older titles, a practice, by the way, pretty common in the gaming industry.

Just my pennies worth.

 

I will simply say that whilst I respect your sentiment and opinion, the "naysayers" believe (including me) that its worth speaking up about their business practises.

DTG have shown the potential and ability with TS Classic to have a market leading product, only hampered by the ancient-ness of the proprietary game engine which made it a misery to run on more modern systems due to how the game engine is built (its approx 15+ years old at this point, built for 32 bit systems).

When TSW was announced, everyone who was already supporting TS Classic were about ready for a new updated train simulator. I very kindly want to point out that I don't think you maybe considered that some of us have been here from day 1, many years ago, and some of us are taking note of what DTG have been tripping up on and we're quite rightly calling them out for it because some of it is a lot worse than others.

As there's a lot to read in this thread, the biggest issue that a lot of people are picking up on is that DTG are taking fixes for old DLC for older "editions" of the game and making the customer needlessly pay, at minimum, £29.99 (if you get the loyalty discount) because the fix for the broken DLC is in TSW4, not a patch for TSW3.

Harp back to earlier days of gaming, companies did a lot better at making sure their product was ready on day one of its set launch period. DTG is unfortunately falling into this colossal trend of publishers putting games out either when they aren't ready, haven't been quality checked or simply have been crunched by the publisher who would rather see the dev team fix it post-release, all in the name of profits.

So yes - I'm sorry you have to put up with some negativity here and there but this is a space for people like myself and others (a growing number of us) who believe DTG are not fulfilling their end of the deal.

That all being said however, enjoy the forums. There's lots to see and discuss but do appreciate it's a shared space for both anything negative and positive about TSW.

 

Now that I’ve pretty much read this entire thread, it seems to me to be a complete waste of time on the players part to criticise DTG. Their response, or lack of one speaks volumes. I believe it was a similar situation when TSW 3 was announced.

If DTG was going to change its business practice, it would have done so by now. DTG know they have a dominant position in the marketplace for train related simulation and are apparently milking it for all it is worth. You either put up with the shenanigans or abandon your hobby.

Nothing I have seen in TSW 4 so far has needed a whole new game in my opinion. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it even runs on the same game engine.

One can argue it’s a good value proposition getting what you’re getting for the price they’re charging, but the only reason to release a whole new game version, in my view, is to stop all issue fixing on TSW 3 and earlier.

 

Indeed

 

I guess the only reason I'm bothering at all is maybe a misplaced sense of hope that they will change. I'm awaiting the release of the Unreal Engine VR Injector mod thats coming out later this year which will allow anyone playing an Unreal Engine based game to play it in VR. As you can see in the thread in my signature, it basically works albeit will need tweaked when the mod is released.

Maybe I am wasting my time and the coin will probably drop eventually that it's pointless to kick up a fuss over issues I have with DTG...

 

will you preorder? or are you waiting for reviews?

 

I'm waiting on reviews, youtube footage, bug lists and a route I like.
Then I'll be waiting until this time next year to check that the stuttering buggy but still rather splendid package isn't abandoned like the TSW3 package I picked up just last month.
Until that time I shall continue to enjoy TSW3 because the fact that TSW4 is so similar actually makes me feel pretty good as I won't be missing out.

 

did you only just buy tsw3 in the humble bundle, or did you buy it in the steam summer sale? not a bad idea though, i didn't buy tsw3 until the christmas sale after it released later in the year