I've just returned from doing this route from London Kings X to York as a return journey. Whilst the LNER Azuma is a very welcome addition to TSW and I'm sure DTG will produce a very nice model, I am much less enthusiastic about the choice of route regarding starting and stopping at nowhere ie Peterborough and Doncaster. The ECML is all about long distance connections between places of significance such as London, York and Edinburgh to name a few. I studied every mile of this route in great detail both ways and my conclusion is that DTG have specifically chosen the most dreary and featureless section to model. It's pretty dull in all honesty. It was a crazy choice and the only logical reason I can find for choosing this section is that it will be significantly less work for the DTG team than the other sections which is a bit strange, it never put the builders in TSC from doing the right thing. The London section would involve too much work and that is the only reason I can think of for not doing it. Pretty shabby. Also of course the 700 could have been added to that. Please DTG do the right thing in the future and extend this route to London and York over time and join all three up, and add Grand Central Railway and Luma as well, do this and the ECML will mean so much more than this simple Azuma virtual test track. Cripes even the training centre is more interesting to drive!
There are pro’s & cons to all the potential sections of the ECML, these have been discussed to death in other threads already so I won’t go over them all. The TLDR is that London - Peterborough was too complex for DTG to do. The chosen section offers the most versatile gameplay for the Azuma, whilst having decent AI traffic options on either end, and also allows for a decent length due to the more basic scenery.
Well Peterborough to Doncaster arguably has more varied scenery and a bit of curvature to maintain interest. North of Hitchin to Peterborough on the Kings Cross section is literally flat as a pancake and Doncaster to York via the Selby Avoiding Line is another largely straight flat blast. My personal preference would have been north of Newcastle to Berwick or even Edinburgh, but not to be.
I live on the Doncaster to Peterborough route, and if you actually know the route well then it's a very interesting section.. just because it doesn't have 20+ stations or loads of layers from other routes it is still a really great choice of section i personally am relieved we don't get london kings cross to peterborough.. all we would do in the azuma is run non stop between london and peterborough (and occasionally call at stevenage), that's it.. we already have a lot of london routes (london to faversham, london to ashford, london to reading, london to brighton).. we don't have a continuous and long (80+ mile) uk route, with a very varied calling pattern that doesn't get predictable quickly (like london to reading does, or london to peterborough would)... the doncaster to peterborough route curves and winds its way along, it has 5 VERY different stations, it has so many features like level crossings throughout I guess what i'm saying is what might look dull to you... is the one single route i've wanted in this game since day one. you may have studies every mile of this route on your journey recently, i have studied every mile of this route 3-4 times per week for the last 15 years, and i couldn't be happier with the choice of section, and cannot wait for Doncaster to Peterborough to be released.
FTFY Opinions are fine as long as they're well presented, thought out, and suggestions for improvement are offered with grace, and these opinions can even be different to those of other people (as evidenced by at least one poster above). [EDIT - Jan - Antagonistic]
I can tell you with 100% confidence I know the route much, much better than you do, even if you have supposedly studied every mile. This route is personally the section of the line I enjoy the most as KGX-PBO is a dull, flat, soulless, seventy miles unless you are (un)lucky enough to stop at Stevenage but even then either side of Stevenage is just as dull and uninspiring. Donny to York is another dull, flat, uninspiring section of track, and York to Newcastle is flat and boring on the south side but fast and really feels like you get moving but on the North section it is scenically stunning but can feel a bit of a drag. PBO to Donny I think combines the qualities of York to Newcastle but mixes them together to make for an interesting trip even if it isn't quite as scenic. If I were told that I was going to be restricted to one of these sections and I had to chose, this is the section I would go for. It's just worth mentioning I don't go further North than Newcastle so don't know that section very well at all. I am over the moon about DTG's route choice.
Except for being a county town York, whilst lovely, is NOT a place of significance other than for railway enthusiasts and tourists. Sheffield, Leeds and Bradford are all larger and more significant in terms of Yorkshire towns; Doncaster and Durham are larger on the ECML So ruling out the southern end (which is really all bypassed by the Azumas anyway so would likely rule them out as trains in game in favour of the local commuter stuff) DTG have chosen the best segment to build in game
I have a somewhat random IRL route question: The wife and I vacationed in London and York earlier this year and are scheduled to do so again next year. We took Grand Central Rail, which passed through Peterborough and Doncaster. Is the route featured in TSW4 the same route (or that portion of it?). If so, I'd love to see it continue to York, although I understand that it may be technically impossible.
Yep, that's the route. This will be LNER though so same route, you were possibly on a class 180 rather than an Azuma on Grand Central though
A class 180 would be a great loco add-on for this route, assuming Dtg can get a Grand Central license.
Apart from the fact they don't stop south of Donny until Kings X. Hull Trains would be a gooden' to add though.
Think there's a Don Coffey clip on YT that covers Newcastle to Edinburgh. There was a TSC version though think it got mixed reviews and I never bought it, also a BVE version from Newcastle to Berwick which wasn't bad but didn't have much in the way of scenery other than the immediate lineside.
Well, the startup procedure ( if you can call it that ) tells me all I need to know about driving the 800x, viz: reverser to forward, apply power. In other words, just another push and go, pretty-colored, plastic electrostar-type emu. Sleep- inducing, I'm afraid. The route ( from a map I found ) looks pretty flat and straight and has only 4 stations, none of which are very significant on the UK network. North of Newcastle would have piqued my interest a little more. Nice for those who want a UK version of LGV, but I can think of dozens more interesting British routes than this one.
To be fair this route has twice the amount of stops as LGV, so there’s that going for it. Like it or not, the IET’s are mandatory pieces of content for TSW, they’re found in practically every region of the UK. Most of the previous DLC for modern era UK though has been very stop start commuter based, so it’ll be different in that department. I do see myself running more of the 158 services on this route though. Also, reverser in and throttle forward is a very simplified take that applies to pretty much every conventional train made after 1950.
I would imagine he probably has. I may take a look at that later as I have never seen that section from the front and from what I remember it is stunning enough from the passenger saloons, though it has been a while and I have taken in a lot of the line south of Newcastle since. This is another thing I forgot to add, service pattern wise this section of line is probably the most varied section of ECML as some runs will be non-stop, some all stops and some a couple of stops. The 80xs are more interesting than Electrostars, though, obviously, nowhere near as engaging as the BR Diesels or 225s. They are good trains in fairness. Also the route isn't flat at all (compared to other sections of the line), try taking Scotsman up or down stoke bank and you'll know that for sure!
I would have rather taken Newcastle - Edinburgh over Peterborough to Doncaster. Impressive scenery, 125mph action, a north Berwick branch for variety, Azumas, HSTs and 91s speeding through, set in 2019 or 2020, 385s and 158s (in northern) doing the stoppers. Would have been a day 1 for me. Peterborough- Doncaster isn’t bad necessarily but it should have 1. Ran through to York, there’s nothing that would have stopped them from modelling 20 miles and 1 station, or it should have ran to Leeds so we would have a West Yorkshire commuter, also there should have been more variety of rolling stock, there was no reason not to include HSTs, even if we couldn’t get 91s immediately, there should be a branch to Lincoln as well, to literally make the route better. I wouldn’t say it’s a uk LGV though, that’s a bit of a reach, there’s a lot more variety in services. But yeah altogether not a bad route choice. Hope DTG nail scenery and other stuff like OHLE and making the route playable
Yes, I agree, This route does definitely opens up the door to Future Extensions, such as to Stevenage or Even Better!, London Kings cross, along with the likes of the 717 and 387 and so on.. But i do understand where your coming from, but what I am going to say is that let's make the most of what we are gonna get with the ecml!!
Ok, Number 1, Last time I checked, we didn't have a London to rea- OHHHHH THE GWR ROUTE But Number 2. I will be real with you, All of these 3 London routes you just mentioned Get Boring wayyyy to quickly, Like from my experience, I've been playing SEHS Since the Release of TSW3 When I got it In December , and for like 4 months now, I have gotten EXTREMLY BORED OF IT, When I play any service in sehs now, even though I successfully completed it it was just so boring, And same thing for the BML the sane experience for sehs is the same experience I have in bml and last but not least The GWR Route, and now, let me just say that I was considering buying the route earlier on this year but after watching a lot of Videos about it, I jus said to myself that, nah, I've changed my mind, don't think I will be getting it anytime soon, But yeah I mean Ecml from London kings cross to Doncaster or Something would have been great!, But i mean the one that we are getting is good enough!
I Could kinda disagree about training center being better to drive than this route bc, Let me not lie they both are good in their own way but I don't think The training center Should be compared with the ecml, Considering the Training center Is Fictional..
I’ve been hoping ECML would come for sometime, I never minded what section and who knows all may be around in a few or more years. personally Doncaster - Peterborough is looking like a good first choice, maybes/probably could have gone to York but hopefully get to see that section added in like Doncaster to Newcastle or something.
I am very happy with the choice of section other than not extending to York. Peterborough to York just seems so much more logical with it being a high speed route. I am sure DTG have their reasons for not doing that and its going to be a lot of fun to drive either way. The 91 and 180 would really bring it to life too.
I mean not a lot of LNER services stop at stevenage and down to kings x is a 150mile (ish) route all together however up to york/leeds is a much more doable 30miles each way.
Wow what an original piece of criticism that DTG will definitely listen to. Are you at all familiar with the UK network? Because that comment suggests you clearly aren't. Peterborough is a major station, a terminus for Great Northern and Thameslink, and a major junction with lines heading east to Ely and Cambridge, West to Leicester and Birmingham, and North East to Sleaford and Lincoln. Grantham is a junction with a line heading west to Nottingham and east to Sleaford. Newark Northgate, features the last remaining flat crossing in the country, crossing the Lincoln to Nottingham line. Retford is unique in that it has a high level and a low level, with the ECML crossing over the Sheffield to Lincoln line. And if Doncaster isn't significant I don't know what is. One of the original railway towns, home to the works that produced Flying Scotsman, Mallard, and countless other railway icons. It's also a major hub, being the junction for the mainline to Leeds, as well as routes to Sheffield, Cleethorpes and Lincoln via Gainsborough. And it's not as if the line itself is home to one of the most significant stretches of track in the entire world, where dozens of speed records took place, some of which still stand today...
If the section between Peterborough and Doncaster doesn’t go past at least Mount Fuji and the Grand Canyon I’m going to be very disappointed. I want stuff to look at while I’m driving from nowhere to nowhere. Maybe the Mastery reward could be the Great Pyramid of Giza which I believe is just south of Retford.
Ah you think your clever don't you? Well I hate to say it but the Great Pyramid of Giza isn't south of Retford, I mean you'd have to be a fool to believe that. It's actually about 5 miles North of Retford.
Guest: "When I pay for a view, I expect something more interesting than that." Basil: "But that is Torquay, madam." Guest: "Well it's not good enough." Basil: "Well may I ask what you expected to see out of a Torquay hotel bedroom window? Sydney Opera House perhaps? The Hanging Gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically across the plain..." Guest: "Don't be silly. I expect to be able to see the sea." Basil: "You can see the sea! It's over there between the land and the sky!" Guest: "I'd need a telescope to see that." Basil: "Well might I suggest you move to a hotel closer to the sea. Or preferably in it."
You have to love that show. Might not sit well with current PC thinking and it would never have been made these days, but it was essentially comedy perfection.
This is true whenever any new route comes out. It'll always be better with some sort of branch or spur. SEHS would have been better with the Sheerness branch, BML should have had the line to Lewes. It's the same thing every time.
I mean if the branch line adds something more interesting than other parts of the route, where the time would be spent instead, then sure I’d agree. To me though, Sheerness would be less relevant than Dartford or Faversham. Lewes would be less relevant than Reigate, even with the state it’s in, the 166 runs offer something different & it actually makes use of a decent stretch of track. Leeds could be decent as is does add something more significant than the current end point, but we don’t know how it would affect mileage & starting anywhere in this section but Peterborough would be pointless. A decision for something is a decision against something else.
My mistake. I forgot whether I was travelling North or South when I dreamt this up! Thanks. I often start typing out a serious response and then due to a lack of real knowledge or boredom delete it and fall back on being silly just for fun. A classic scene from a classic show.
Branch? You'd essentially double the route length because the Lincoln 'branch' starts at Peterborough and ends at Doncaster lol.
Brilliant absolutely brilliant! I really do feel for poor old Fawlty as I can usually relate to him especially that episode. Where can you watch it these days as it's not on the old BritBox thing anymore?
