Does Dtg Even Know What Stuttering Is?

In a recently locked thread it's mentioned that work on stutters has improved and some oddball caching issue when first running a route is a cause. Why is it then that whenever I ran SEHSE on TSW3 with the same scenario again and again off and on for months to see if it improved, it did not. Not a single bit.

I'll give an example from TSW2. Most routes ran perfectly smooth at 60FPS no matter if it was the first or the hundredth run I've done on them. However there's the Luzern route which suffers from less than 60 FPS for a lot of the route. But, it does run at a constant 45FPS. While it doesn't feel the best, it is tolerable as it isn't constantly flicking between 45 and 60 over and over every half second which is what happens on "upgraded" TSW3 routes. So no, it isn't a UE4 limitation else we would have seen the same issue going back to the original iteration of TSW. This is a new phenomena created with TSW3 most likely caused by adding things that are not working well with your game. Either it's lighting, or clouds, or whatever else was added to new routes. A stutter is not low FPS. It is a flutter of FPS between 60 and 40s in rapid succession and present along large portions of a route. If the issue is not even understood then there is no way to convey that it is being worked on.

 

Sounds like a "you"-problem.

 

Um, no, it isn't.

 

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

 

Wrong. I see it on their own streams. So it's an everybody problem. Just doesn't affect those that choose to look the other way.

 

I have seen that, and to be honest I do experience a little bit of stuttering as well. But generally speaking it's not much, and it's not stopping me from enjoying the game.

 

"Stuttering" is not inconsistent FPS. What stuttering is is a repeated "hanging" or "freezing" behaviour, from a fraction of a second to, in extreme cases, multiple seconds, which is a function of tile loading and unloading. While these micro-hangs will be reflected in the fps counter, it is not in fact a function of render speed at all.

 

This is not true. Unless of course you are just turning a blind eye

 

I don't remember TSW2 running smooth. I found it annoying and looked into it back then because I could not believe upgrading to a PS5 would give me less stutters as most PS5 users were claiming back then because just like the streams today there was visible stutter in the TSW streams. Maybe TSW1 was stutter free but TSW2 was for sure not stutter free as I own that version.

 

I think even that is only one type of stuttering present in the sim.

You have FPS fluctuations, which will cause juddering.

You have occasional pauses, when it's loading tiles or caches.

And you have constant stutters, like tiny freezes in the motion every second; you can see it in passing trains, where the FPS is constant, but another train is jerking along slightly; and you can see it in the passing scenery from your own train. This one can indicate an issue with the thread where the renderer is located, usually the main thread in UE, being overloaded with processes. Especially if you rely on the defaults and blueprints of UE, rather than natavising code. I'm not the programmer genius my brother is, but he's successfully combated these issues in UE games he's worked on.

I don't know if the above is definitely the case with TSW, and I admittedly haven't played the sim for a while, so I will have to return to it and check out some routes.

 

Tile loading is a micro pause, not stuttering. When a person stutters in their speech it is a rapid repetition of syllables or portions of words, not a momentary freeze like a recent US Senator went through.

 

Then that sounds like a "you" problem. I have never experienced Max Headroom "rapid repetitions" of anything in TSW.

In any event, when DTG- and other users - talk about "stuttering" (for example in today's post), they are indeed talking about micropauses.

 

Again, if this is a me problem, I did ask Microsoft whether my Xbox Series X that runs everything perfectly except for TSW3 content was a dud. They did laugh it off and said it was a developer issue, not hardware. (I knew what the answer would be, but I asked them in jest anyhow).

Anyhow, it's there. Not making it up as there really is no reason to. But regardless, it looks like the issue isn't understood or ignored hence why I've had to keep my wallet closed to anything post TSW2.

 

I experience stuttering in TSW3 on both PC and XSX.
Mostly on TSW3 routes, particularly BRO, LFR, but all of them really. And not "during the first run", but always. After many many runs: completed the journey on all of these routes, yet still experience these stutters.
The only TSW3 routes where I didn't experience stutters: NID, HDX and the Training Centre. The first because TSG might know something DTG don't know, and the latter two because of the small size of the respective maps.

I have not experienced anything like it on TSW2 and very little if at all when playing TSW2 routes in TSW3. If I remember correctly, some stutter happens sometimes on DRA and DCZ. Haven't played these routes in a while, so memory might be playing tricks.

The article seems to contain the usual propaganda which may be aimed at potential new customers. Anyone who has played TSW3 would likely not fall for it.

This is what I am talking about:

 

Isn’t a low fps “lag” not stutter, a stutter with a game is more just pause for the purpose of loading. (With TSW particularly the next tile)

 

Correct. Playing TSW2 content in TSW3 saw no stutters. Just lowered FPS here and there (but constant!) on routes that were perhaps more dense in scenery. It's only present in TSW3+ content which suggests it isn't a game engine issue, but something that was added to newer routes that doesn't play well.

 

When a game drops under the average FPS (lets say it is 60 FPS) it is a stutter. This is measured in P1 (1% low) and P02 (0,2%) low FPS. This can be 55, or even 50 which is not really recognizable as a stutter. But when it drops to 20, 15, 10 or even below in that case it is stuttering for sure. The higher the P1 or P02 FPS are (or in the best case they are nearly the same rate as your average FPS) the less the game is stuttering.

So when driving in a station and the game drops from your average 60 FPS to 30 FPS because their are a lot of trains, this is already stuttering, if for you or not, it is what people in general do understand from it.

I also do know and understand what you and DTG do mean here, this was just a basic example why "stuttering" is not a wrong term for FPS drops.

 

Wrong.

 

I see it coupled on the in game FPS counter with a higher ms number (whatever that represents on the 2nd row). I honestly could care less about a micro pause as it's generally hardly noticeable. It's not like the game sits there for 15 seconds loading the next scenery tile as we used to see in something like FSX running on ancient hardware. But that flickering 60-45-60-45-60-45... makes me nauseous to look at when it's that prolonged.

 

So Dresden Riesa, Boston Sprinter and London Commuter are stutter free in TSW2 on Xbox Series X?

 

Thank you very much for your long an friendly answer, when other people are discribing and explaining a problem for you. Maybe you would be so super nice and give us all an insight and enlighten me and other people why a stutter of a game is only when it holds to 0 FPS for a moment.

 

By my definition of a stutter, yes. In terms of a lower FPS, yes I do see this on portions of those routes in TSW2. For example coming into London on BML the FPS will drop to the 40s or 50s most times. But the FPS usually sit there at a constant lower frame rate. It doesn't just jump back and forth between 60 and 45 over and over in rapid succession.

 

Got to stick with fps drop isn’t stutter, fps is speed, whilst stutter is a complete pause nothing slow about it, as it ain’t moving not even slightly.

unless you’re getting 0 fps it ain’t stutter, 1 fps is slow but not paused.

 

Btw. some use of google gave me a FAQ article from the ACER website:
https://blog.acer.com/en/discussion/518/how-to-resolve-stuttering-issues-in-games

"What is game stuttering?
Stuttering is an issue caused by irregular delays between the graphics processing unit (GPU) and the image on your display. This is most notable when gaming, because it can have a profoundly detrimental effect on your experience. It is also noticeable when watching videos. When dealing with screen stuttering, games will feel slow, appear laggy, and skip frames. This can cause a delay in player actions, which wreaks havoc on gameplay.

Some players report having screen lags where the screen would essentially stutter for a few seconds. It can happen all the time, not just when playing games. Occasionally, this issue can occur alongside the blue screen of death, which indicates underlying issues with the graphics card or driver."

So it seems at least the person who has written the FAQ for ACER feels the same about stuttering in games.

 

Wouldn't that be a pause or micro pause? Stutter would still involve motion. Ok I really don't like to bring up this example again, but for the lack of a better one.. Somebody who stutters in their speech is still talking, but struggling to get their words out. They aren't just full stop pausing.

 

that’s not what the game does even if it is when someone talks, the game doesn’t move slowly when it stutters it’s a complete stop.

I would also state a person does who stutters technically does stop, it’s just brief to make you mistake it as slower

yea stutter is quite very much like a micro pause or full pause for unspecified time, yes I would agree to that.

 

This, it is also why I said that when a game falls below average FPS it is a sort of stuttering, not noticable maybe but it is not "stable" at for example 60fps. So when the average FPS drops more and more at a certain point you will feel the game stuttering (it depends on you as a person of when you notice the stuttering). Could begin at 50fps for other people at 40fps or maybe even when the game falls below 30fps or 20fps. Same discussion as "can you see more then 60fps".

 

"SEHSE" really? first SEH, then SEHS and now SEHSE? what next, SEHSED?

 

We have a very different definition of stutter. I've never seen any difference in stuttering. Some routes are worse than others but TSW 2 was a stutter fest as well. On the streams and on all the consoles I played it on even on Xbox

 

Yes you definitely understand what I'm getting at. A game like Starfield runs at a constant 30 FPS. It's not stuttering because it's constant for that game. Even in TSW2 when portions of routes drop below 60 they would sit at a constant 45 or thereabouts and then return to 60. The difference is constant vs rapid jumping.

 

Fantastic thread, wonderful stuff.

"Does DTG even know what stuttering is?", and then 30 posts where forum participants argue among themselves about what stuttering is...

 

At least no one says TSW just runs perfectly fine without stutters.

 

not an argument, just a disagreement on what constitutes “stutter and “lag”

 

Well I guess it's just me then. I've never seen anything on TSW2 make me nauseous as every route made for TSW3. I'll make a doctor's appointment and see if there's some medication for this mysterious DTG disease

 

Exactly, for me a freezing game is a "lag". Like when you play an online game and your ping is terrible the game does "lag" so it holds for a second or so to get the data. It is not stuttering because the game itself is running perfectly for your.

I would say that TSW2 did have "lags" (loading content) and stutters (low FPS parts) as well. But I would also argue that with newer routes it has gone worse then better. For example TSW 2020 content runs better in TSW3 then some TSW3 routes.

 

I would say for me;

lag is getting slower but still visually moving throughout.

stutter is a full pause for “x” amount of time.

 

oh, it gets better!

 

Weird you say "nauseous" as that's the experience the first version of London Commuter gave me. But in the case of London Commuter it might not have been "stutter" anymore as it was referred to back then as a "slideshow" by many

 

It’s a forum of many individuals on thread focused on the topic people are talking about, it’s not surprising every single one doesn’t think the same and are talking about the topic… doesn’t mean theirs any hatred over it… so yes disagreement and agreement.

 

And to be clear I take no offense at other points of view. I was just describing my experience and it appears it is something that isn't widely shared or even appears unique to me.

 

Stuttering is definitely an issue. In some cases, it’s so bad that causes audio distortion too. It kills immersion stone dead.

 

First I noticed it was on Bremen route, and could look past it, but the more I’ve been on Linke the more I’ve noticed it on that route and it gets quite difficult to dismiss on that one tbh.

 

On consoles the hardware is the same for everyone. If I experience stutters (or whatever you want to call them) on BRO, then anyone playing TSW3/BRO on XBox Series X will likely see the same thing. Just like AtherianKing, see below: BRO and LFR are the worst culprits for me and for him.

What do you play on?

 

No stutter in the ECML stream so far...

 

series x, it may still happen on more routes that I have but didn’t mention, I just don’t pick up on it usually.

 

Yes. It’s very noticeable on Bremen.

 

Not sure why there's any sort of discord on whether or not stuttering exists in this game. Dovetail even have an entire section on today's FAQ forum post dedicated to it, so even they themselves realize it is something universal.


https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-4-–-what-you-need-to-know.73462/


I have relatively good hardware and even I get stutters, so I'm not sure if the people who don't encounter these issues are playing a different game than the rest of us, or are just plain delusional. It's not a huge enough issue to ruin my enjoyment for the game and I would imagine my hardware means I get less of it, but those who say they have never experienced it need to get their eyes checked.

 

I think it comes down to the definition of "stutter". I erroneously thought that it was universally known by my definition. Clearly I was wrong. And if DTG is working off the premise that stutters are micro pauses (i.e. scenery tile loads) then we're way off on what I was talking about and probably won't see any improvement.

 

If it was just on the PC you could put it down to potato hardware or not having SSD.

But BML continues to stutter and rubber band, with accompanying sound dropout, on my PS5 version too where the hardware is the same across all the consoles.

The game desperately needs a bit of optimisation.

That said, the latest iteration of SimRail stutters even worse on my PC and that’s in Unity with a draw distance less than MSTS used to offer.

Conversely, Snowrunner with its albeit small but incredibly detailed maps runs smooth as butter.