Guide Riesa-dresden: Tips On Driving Freight Trains Realistically.

Note that Falns (coal) wagons that come with I think BR 155 addon are complete nonsense, having 158,7 tons of coal loaded, while the maximum capacity is 65,5. It gives funny results in the calculator I am making

 

Yep, you got it. Only thing not covered would be an automatic car loaded far below capacity, but I don’t think that’s implemented anywhere in TSW.

 

Lamplight perfect! thank you.
Now it begs the question, do we know if load dependent braking actually simulated?

 

noir I'll run that train on Kassel-Wurzburg. I'll let you know how it goes.. next week when I finish the run

 

cwf.green will likely be able to confirm it for you but as far as I’m aware it has been simulated since DRA.

 

If I my add some formulae of my own to the educated answers already given:

There are basically 3 types of cars (disregarding some rare special variants that are not in the game)

1) Static braked weight cars
These simple cars (I don't even know an example) have always the same braked weight (VALUE A, marked on the car), regardless of the load.
BRAKED WEIGHT = VALUE A

2) Manual load change cars
These cars (e.g. Zacns in DRA, Es in NID) have a changeover lever that allows to switch between two braked weight settings, VALUE A and VALUE B. Those values are marked on a plate attached to the changeover lever, together with a third value, VALUE X, that tells you at what load you are supposed to switch to the higher brake weight value.
IF LOAD < VALUE X
BRAKED WEIGHT = VALUE A
ELSE (LOAD >= VALUE X)
BRAKED WEIGHT = VALUE B


3) Automatic load change cars
These cars (e.g. Sggmrss, Habbiins 344 in DRA) adjust the braked weight automatically according to the load up to a maximum value marked on the car, VALUE MAX.
IF GROSS WEIGHT (empty car + load) <= VALUE MAX
BRAKED WEIGHT = GROSS WEIGHT
ELSE (GROSS WEIGHT > VALUE MAX)
BRAKED WEIGHT = VALUE MAX

 

I have noticed this too. At any rate gondola cars (that allow loading at a tipple) can have a lot of different grades of "load", so why not other cars as well. Some of the Vectron scenarios on DRA use loading diffrent states of the Eanos cars, e.g., compared to the timetable.

Maybe someone has the nerve to conduct some uncoupling tests at the training center...

 

tygerways#2596 great screenshots! Thanks. I can feel the stars aligning in my mind when it comes to understanding braked weights.
(That was me commenting on your YouTube video btw)

 

Thanks a lot for the friendly feedback!

 

Anytime! I love your stuff. Keep doing what you're doing

 

Most of the questions have been answered already but let me give some confirmation/clarification.

1. Does TSW simulate variable braked weight (automatic load proportioning)? Yes. Since Dresden-Riesa freight wagons have had this implemented. With the release of TSW4 I went back and made the physics consistent for all freight rolling stock included in Dresden-Riesa, Kassel-Würzburg, Bremen-Oldenburg and Vorarlbergbahn. I did not touch the Left-Rhine (LFR) rolling stock this time around, although looking through the changelog I did indeed tune the physics for the Shimmns-708 before LFR released.*

Note: Falns 183, Shimmns 708 (pre-LFR variants), Shimmns 722, Roos-t and the Cement wagon do not have accurate physics. Hopefully this can be fixed in the future, but that is all up to DTG.

2. Does TSW simulate different types of friction brake equipment (disc brake, tread brake) and different types of brake block material (LL, K-composite brake blocks or cast iron)? Yes. Mainly the difference is with regard to the friction vs speed curves. Heat is not usually simulated, although the Acela does feature this to an extent (but obviously that's not a German freight train lol).

3. Braked weight is an unfortunate name since it's really a quantity that attempts to measure brake force. Originally it did correspond to something like the braked axle load/"fitted weight" but nowadays this is all measured in "the applied force on all the brake shoes in the wagon" (or equivalent applied force for other brake types like disc brake) and then verified with brake tests where the stopping distance for a specified test rake (or single wagon/coach) corresponds to a "lambda" (braked weight percentage) value according to tables/equations (UIC leaflet 544).

Conclusion: If your TSW train has wagons from Dresden-Riesa or later, assume that you need to treat it "like a real train" (i.e. set manual empty/load levers to the correct setting, G/P to the correct setting and drive according to the speed given by the braked weight percentage) or you will be in varying degrees of trouble.

If your train has wagons from earlier DLC: all bets are off

 

cwf.green laughing at "varying degrees of trouble"
Thanks for that insight. This has all been extremely helpful

 

Something I'd love in the game is a "consist overview" screen where you can see the weight of each wagon in the train. That would make computing the total braked weight/braked weight percentage much easier, especially so if the train includes wagons with automatic load proportioning (automatische Lastabbremsung). It's quite a niche feature though.

 

Does the brake physics simulation change as soon as a car is uncoupled from the player service (like in an uncoupling test)?
Asking this because AI services use simplified physics, no?

 

Even if not that detailed, it would be immensely helpful to have a "brake report" available in the pause menu. You don't need to know details about each of the wagons, but you should have a brake report from yard master where the resulting numbers (brake percent, PZB mode,..) are written. That's absolutely necessary for freight trains simulation. And game most likely knows everything needed, it's just not presented to player.

 

..that would – a bit off topic – extremely helpful for British trains.
If you can't simulate I-ETMS or EBuLA, please simulate TOPS!

 

That is my understanding, yes. I haven't tried it in a long time (previously this would instantly derail the train above a certain speed).

 

So uncoupling tests probably won't yield any relevant data.
I remember uncoupling cars while running at the hump yard at Cumberland and chasing and "catching" them on the run by bumping into the automatic couples when I was new to the game. That worked, nothing derailed. But I have no idea what physicals simulation was running on them, obviosuly.

 

Most likely not. But UIC have tables for both full-train tests (locomotive brake isolated) and uncoupling tests. Appendix A vs B.

 

The Eanos came with the ÖBB Baureihe 1293 Railpool/DB Baureihe 193. When it comes to Uacns try RSN or when it comes Consist Creator with the Mentioned Railpool 193/ÖBB 1293

 

I have created a calculator based on a lot of information that was said and explained here. I hope to get your feedback on it, if everything makes sense and is correctly put together

 

Very nice, thank you! Will definitely try it out later. Just one quick comment while looking at your example, the Sggmrss should be limited to 100kph when loaded. Your R/P timetable states 110kph. Am I overlooking something?

 

I believe container trains are allowed up to 120 km/h even while loaded up to some weight (hence the "ss"), which does not seem to be reached on the ingame wagons. The trains of Metrans that go from Prague to Hamburg are allowed 120 km/h I believe, but maybe there is additional restriction by DB?
Here is a leaflet from manufacturer that says loaded 120 km/h, for example.

 

Yes, you are right. They are allowed until 90t to drive up to 120. I was sure to remember they were ss only at 0.

 

Hi Jan,

That sounds like a good idea!

 

And for the fun of it let it appear like a brake note (Bremszettel).

 

I'm a bit confused with allowed speeds on German freight trains. I got a couple of Buchfahrplans for all the routes, and on all of them it seems to show a freight speed limit of 20km/h below the line speed (so line speed 120km/h means a max of 100km/h for freight trains). Is this always correct? If so, this means for most of DRA freight trains won't be able to go over 100km/h even if the calculator shows we have a Vmax of 115km/h, for example.

 

There are up to three potential speed limits in effect, and the lowest of the three always controls. There is the line speed, true, and if it is the lowest then obviously it applies, but in many cases, most cases with a heavy freight, the consist Vmax according to the BFP is lower, and that's what you drive. Even with lighter freights, the cars themselves will usually limit you; most German freight wagons are limited to 100 max if loaded, and none can run over 120; this has nothing to do with line speed minus a number. And finally there are PZB-imposed limits and Zs3 limits, which trump line speed at all times.

 

So line speed applies normally to freight trains, it's just that I should be obeying lower limits if forced by the cars or PZB speeds etc?

I've been running trains at 40km/h through the 60km/h line speed sections in Dresden etc oopsie!

 

Correct. Under most circumstances you would run at line speed (or Zs3 speed) up to 100 and just ignore anything above that. Pulling containers or empties make that 120. On DRA I don't believe there is enough of a grade* for the BFP speed to be lower than that, except perhaps an ultraheavy (which would also be in PZB U).

*Buchfahrplan Vmax is calculated based on how well a particular consist can brake. Sometimes things like closer than normal signals factor in, but the usual main factor is descending a grade of some significance.

 

I know what you mean, there is one version of book timetable on the german community site that states this thing about -20 for freight trains. I was surprised by it too, but I couldn't find any such rule existing in reality. Perhaps its author comes from another country where that rule exists, many countries use for example various speed signs for different types of trains. But germans approach it by having just one line speed and adding overcomplicated formulas on top of it

 

Don’t really have anything to add to what was already said above, apart maybe from the fact that even on DRA there are speed restrictions for certain trains because of the inclines on the route.

If you want to dive a bit deeper into the subject you can either read this thread or I would recommend you take a look at tygerways#2596 youtube Channel. He has recently published two videos about calculating brake performance on German freight trains:



And happy new year to everyone

 

I like how Germans think but this is harder than working out the Vmax takeoff performance for a Boeing777-300ER LOL....

I'm sure German drivers know how to do it!

 

They don’t need to. They get handed a note with the info they need.

 

And so do British drivers. It used to be the duty of the Guard to ascertain the makeup, weight, brake performance, and thus speed classification of a train, and to relay that to the Driver when he took over a train or it was altered enroute, usually in written form. Nowadays there is usually no Guard on freight trains, but there is a "train preparer" at the freight yards to do this instead.

Passenger trains are a bit simpler these days, mostly the length of the train is the relevant information, except when two dissimilar but compatible multiple-unit sets are coupled - in that case they may have different braking characteristics and permitted speeds.

 

I guess a computer handles the calculations and is printed with the consist report?

 

*brain overload* *brain explosion imminent in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1* *explosion*

 

this is superb guide, but I think I will just stick to the simplest of approaches, as I am not a huge freight enthusiast - freight automatically on M or U, unless it looks like a very light train and a very strong braking loco like Vectron/Taurus ... anything north of 1000t is U to me ... wont even bother with setting individual cars, unless it looks like a mixed stuff on cars, like intermodal or such

thanks tho, interesting read

 

Has anybody given any thoughts to applying what is in this guide to a pair of very unusual timetable services on KWG that are both freight and passenger services, in one? Specifically: NJ490 and NJ491?

 

I haven't but I think the passenger cars come with the same types of numerical values as freight cars. They should be able to factor into the calculation.

 

Coming back to the 2/3 star discussion after all this time, the man himself (Der Silberling - highly recommend checking him out if you're even somewhat interested in German railroading and understand German) has published a video on this very topic:



Unfortunately, he doesn't exactly specify how the top speed actually works for these cars, but he does highlight that these cars on their own do not fulfil the requirements for 120km/h running. A comment on the video, which I assume to be from someone working in the industry then confirms that they either need to be in a train of proper SS cars or run under continuous safety system supervision (LZB/ECTS). For reference, here are the comments:

If this comment is true (and it does align with what is said in the video), then the unit-Laaers-trains in TSW we had more or less agreed would run >100km/h should actually be limited to 100. At least that's the way it seems to me.

 

Thanks for posting this I was watching this myself yesterday and was thinking about posting it on this thread as well

I have actually seen my understanding confirmed by what he said. You either have to run them under LZB or under specific rules, which are specified by the EVU. This could be what you have quoted above, running them in between other cars allowed to go up to 120kph.

 

Oopsie, not sure why I wrote "square" here since this is obviously wrong.

Power = Force x Velocity. If force is constant (as it almost is for disc brakes) then the dissipated power when braking grows linearly with speed

Nontheless, a proportional (to speed) increase of the dissipated thermal power is probably still the reason why the pressure is reduced above 160 km/h (which is the region that requires the maximum brake force to comply with 1000m stopping distances, above you have LZB anyway which is usually half the required deceleration).

 

Just reviewing my knowledge of these rules (for no particular reason ) and I just wanted to confirm with everyone whether a train weighing more than 1600t that includes Laaers or Sggmrss wagons would be forced into brake mode G due to the asterisk in the pdf you made?

"No articulated wagons or wagon units that are made up of vehicles with single wheel sets and cannot be operationally separated (close coupled wagons with single wheel sets) are allowed on the train."
The Laaers consists of two close coupled wagons, and the Sggmrss is articulated, if I'm not mistaken.

 

These "Nightjet" trains are fakes making use of in-game rolling stock, especially Laerss substituting for the actual Autotrain transport wagons- which are specially built for these trains and have the same Vmax (and brake systems) as the coaches. I don't know where you would find a table of R-brake values for freight cars.

 

This is my understanding, yes, with one caveat important for game purposes:
relevant for the 1,600 tons mark is the mass of the consist, not the mass of the train (cars without working locos)
(the special rules for UIC-AK couplers on one side and brake mode G according to the timetable on the other should be irrelevant for game purposes at the moment, the gross weight requirements for single cars you surely have in mind anyway).

You can find the exact rules in Richtlinie 915.0101Z01, section 2, (5) g), that reads like this (text as of 2016, the wording has been altered slightly since apparently, without changing the rules that are relevant for us):
g) Güterzüge mit einzustellender Bremsstellung P mit einem Gewicht des Wagenzuges über 1600 t:
Die Bremsstellung P darf bei Zügen mit einem Gewicht des Wagenzuges über 1600 t nur eingestellt werden, wenn
- bei einem Gewicht des Wagenzuges zwischen 1601 t und höchstens 2500 t ausschließlich Wagen mit einem Gesamtgewicht von mindestens 32 t,
- bei einem Gewicht des Wagenzuges zwischen 2501 t und höchstens 4000 t ausschließlich Wagen mit einem Gesamtgewicht von mindestens 40 t,
- unabhängig vom Gewicht des Wagenzuges alle Wagen mit einer Kupplung vom Typ UIC-AK (Zug-Druck-AK) eingestellt sind.
Zu den Anstrichen 1 und 2 dürfen sich keine Gelenkwagen und keine Wageneinheiten, die aus Fahrzeugen mit Einzelradsätzen gebildet sind und betrieblich nicht getrennt werden können (kurzgekuppelte Wagen mit Einzelradsätzen), im Zug befinden.

The last sentence is what you are aiming at. If you don't have UIC-AK coupler ("Anstrich 3"), you can't have "Gelenkwagen" (articulated cars) or "kurzgekuppelte Wagen mit Einzelradsätzen" (short-coupled cars with single axles) in the train, otherwise the whole train has to be set to G.

Sggmrss cars due to their jacobs bogies should qualify as "Gelenkwägen", Laaers cars with their single axles and two pairs that can't be separated outside of a workshop should qualify as "kurzgekuppelte Wagen mit Einzelradsätzen".