Dovetail Games What Marks A Route As Completed For You?

I've never thought of the concept of completing a Route until I saw the question in this poll. I complete a timetable service in one Route and then move to the next Route in my library.

 

I don´t care about completions. TSW is my chill out at the end of the day. Sometimes on weekends as well. Long freight running during weekends? A swift service on IOW? Something picturesque on NID? Or should we have a walk around NTP? Maybe some steam on PFR or better shunting on RSN?

It depends on what mood I am. And with some 15.000 services at my disposal, there´s something for every mood. Some scenarios are really good and I have no problems to repeat them. Some are just fire-and-forget scenarios, never to be revisited. I´d even abandone them if they´re a sleeping pill.

In a certain way TSW is also a replacement for railway modeling (which I´d just love). But this is very time consuming and, not to the least, has become a hobby for only a few selected and financially gifted members of the gen pool. Too bad, but it´s certainly an aspect to be considered.

 

I count a route as completed when I complete all scenarios, training modules, route tasks, mastery and achievements.

 

At what point you completed a route?
I chose Something else (Please elaborate in the thread) and so I do.

I think all of the other answers (and even the question itself) imply the general understanding of yours, that a route add-on is something needed to be completed, just like a mission in any RPG-game. However this is not what TSW is. TSW is a simulator to give players the experience of a real train driver and the ability to reach freedom and satisfaction in his very own way by driving the locos and discovering the scenery of the route thereby.

I don't drive a train on a route because I want achievements, because I want medals, because I want collectibles or I want scenarios or timetable services to be completed. I want to play because I have fun playing. Nothing else.

I also don't need any other objective to do some trophy hunt. This is not a game for that. It's rather the exact opposite. I love to enjoy the experience, the landscape and the calmness within the boundaries of the game, not being a hit'n'run game.

And nothing feels more disappointing if you as developer first want us and let us fall in love with a route, only to abandon the project a few weeks after and find a new route we should "consume" and do so over and over again. It doesn't feel comfortable for the ones you love a route if you let them down. And this does not mean, it doesn't have to agree with your business model releasing steadily new routes.

All what a lot of people here want is just expect a little more understanding and patience in the concern to fix routes properly, update them and - very important - even enhance them.

Unfortunately you see routes as a consumable object for the costumer to take but it is not like that for many of us. There can be a never-ending relationship to playing a route. It's not just simply bound to some trophies or collectibles.

I wish, and I think I can speak for many people here, that you finally should really concern the idea of a regular upgrade plan for routes, which does not mean I want it for free. I would pay for some route upgrades, that's not the point. The point is that you are not interested in that - focusing on new content rather than the old and previous ones because you probably think it generates more money as people still buying it.

But a lot of people do not have interest in new routes. They rather would like to have some map and service upgrades to the older ones, their favorite routes, the routes that they love to play and enjoy still playing even years later. That is a circumstance you seem to have not understood well so far.

New routes yes, but don't treat the old ones like an abondened child. They still belong to you.

For this, answering your question, my answer is: There is no point I complete a route. There is only ever a point I lost the faith in you, believing in it. Let's look at the new TSW4 routes for example and the TSW4 roadmap for example:


There is no hint to see that you even think about partial or minor upgrades to them, only releasing constantly new ones. Their fate is determined already at release. And this is thing I hate about them and your thinking and marks the spot of when I'm completed with my hope in you changing that, but not when I'm completed with the route itself.

 

YES! Yes this all!

 

I agree to everything you said, except

I think this is actually part of the issue and vicious circle. When there is always new content created, it's easy for them distract players from the old broken content.

The system works as long as people buy every new DLC they bring to daylight and the mandatory requirement to bring the new TSW iteration behind a paywall each year. It maybe will work for a while still but I doubt it will work forever in this way.

Also in comparison to you, I do would wish some upgrade to the route, not just fixed bugs and improving things, I would like to see some new content in it.

 

In practice I view a route as ‘completed’ when all the curated services in the Journey mode are done, although if I really like a route I’ll then start on the remaining timetabled services.

I generally don’t bother with the collectibles as I don’t get much enjoyment looking for those.

 

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I think they said they were just removing the whole 'bug fix' section to the road map because it's not just as simple as 'filling hole and box ticked' some fixes may break others and so forth and then you end up with the old TSW3 style format where some things are on roadmaps for months, like the red light issue and it's just pointless.

I mean, look at rivet, they patched in some real minor issues on EDN so nothing is ever 'abandoned', heck, even the first swiss route got looked at a while back too

 

I agree. But the sentence you quoted was not about me complaining to see a bugfix plan on the road map (which in fact would completely explode the frame and the context, as I know very good how changelogs and such can look like).

What I meant was that there is no event on the roadmap to see, that they plan to upgrade the scenery or the route (in terms of the map) for any of the new DLCs (Vorarlberg, Antelope Valley, East Coast Main Line), not even mentioning improvements like to older routes.

As well as the so called upgrade to Nahverkehr: Dresden-Riesa, enhancing the lighting and adding volumetric fog, wasn't a big improvement to the route itself for me. It's nice that they cared for it and enhanced that, however a minor move in comparison to how they generally upgrade old routes as well as the play experience to the route itself.

At least a short new branch with some new services or a bigger graphical overhaul of the stations would have done that, at least for me personally.

Need to take the comparison to SCS Software with ETS2 again, as we both talked about it before, which do so many things to improve the player experience completely free of charge (remodeling the base routes, enhancing the core game). And all of that with the fact, the game itself as the DLCs are by far less expensive, and they provide regular sales (I mean in terms of weeks, not months) for ALL DLC content (!) on Steam.

Now of course ETS2 has a different player base and more people which buy DLCs, so that they can afford to do so. However, this is just an example of game developer business which works - they do not need polls to ask for how the players complete their DLCs - as they know people playing on it and will play on it for a long time further - regardless of pauses in between or not.

They upgrade their base map (something what in TSW does not exist) for free, so that people who even drove on it for thousand of times, find a new experience with it and have fun with it. That's absolutely great. And I think this worth to mention, regardless of how ETS2's scenery (for not being life-size) and graphical quality differs from TSW. It's a good example for how a game developer focuses on the improvement on the player's experience with their game and takes the fruits of doing so, nothing more, nothing less.

 

For me 'route completed' means:
- Finished all tutorials
- Finished all scenarios
- Finished all timetable services

 

I selected something else and so I am here.

Completed for me means having done everything that the game throws at me as unfinished, like timetable services, tutorials, mastery, collectibles, achievements, journeys. Anything that's not hooked to an infinity counter like player level and route / loco level, basically.

But personally, out of the mentioned above, I leave out the timetable. That's humanly impossible for the majority I dare to say, if you only start now at least.

And if suggestions can be made, I like it the way it is. More trackers would be welcomed, showing me ingame statistics, and not leaving me out to explore the menu back and forth to see what I've done.

And I highly disagree with the comments that say that TSW is a simulator and should be treated as such. I am sure it's gamey approach to things and console availability have opened it up (and made profitable) through this approach, compared to the sterile and bone dry conterparts such as TSC, Run 8 or else. MSFS is the gold standard here again, showing how you can make both veterans and the "casuals" enjoy a complex simulation. And I thimk TSW shouldn't change to only cater one of the two sides, but rather embrace them both.

 

When DTG releases a new version of the game with new features, some people loudly complain about paying for "the same game" and aggressively downplay the new stuff. So imagine the reaction if DTG charged for a route upgrade.

 

That's a completely different topic. People dislike the business practice to have to pay for a core game update anually, in order to receive bug fixes and compatibility towards new DLCs. Plus receiving questionable useful features in return, my personal opinion is that they are more than right with that.

What I proposed was an optional way to enhance my game experience with the route I love.

Personally, I think it's a shame that they do not even feel any glimpse of responsibilty to enhance routes with 30€/$ price tag like that on their own without any charge and further question.

But I learnt to be okay with this about DTG. I'm fine with it now. But there do not even have the interest to provide me the option to upgrade my favorite, even if I would be willing to throw my money on them.

That was my point.

 

It did rub me a bit wrong that the community team posted this poll though. As long as no one gets the idea to axe or reduce service mode because the top option (at the moment of writing) is completing all scenarios completes a route.

 

I worry about this as well. I could see DTG deciding that free roam and a few scenarios are all that's needed, similar to TSC. They can just replace service mode with a few more collectibles and double their profit margin.

That would be the end of TSW for me, personally.

 

Every timetable/scenario (and needing done on journey mode as that registers semi separate) and collectible for me would class a route as completed

achievements I consider more console than game related.

 

The best routes should never feel completed. With different services at different times of day, of the year, in different weather, should provide a decent amount of variety, while future improvements and timetable layers should mean we can keep going back to it. Once again: timetable is key, the better a timetable, the more life a route has (in both senses). And TSW should be a growing collection of routes and trains with a long life.

 

You don't mind if I take a screenshot of that statement ... just in case

 

Was thinking the same thing lol.

 

The issue is, it's the saw with TSW3/4.
If they do a paid upgrade to a route, they're only going to update the paid upgrade version from then on. It's two much work/time to maintain two independent versions of a route.

 

There is not a big difference from this to the state we have today with the base DLC, since DTG is rarely going to update add-ons later than 6 months.
I would expect the upgrade to be released about that time (maybe 6 months later) after the initial release of the DLC, and if the extra payment for the upgraded extension would insure that updates are brought to DLC more frequently even after that period of time, I would pay for it for sure.

A paid upgrade version which gets updated is better than no updated version at all.

But speaking about the technical aspect:

I thought about a separate scenery extension using the scenery overlay system for example, not two independent versions of the route (as something like the normal and the extended one you proposed), regarding this section in the PC Editor FAQ:

Some "added scenery" layer like this could be brought to sale, as separate add-on for the add-on.

Not sure whether and if, how it is possible to make a layer independent plus the issue connecting these layers. But it is at least one concern to start with.

 

That's a strange question I think. To me a route will never be completed.

I only drive in timetable mode, but the variaty there with weather, time of day and seasons will last a long, long time in my opinion. I often redo services in different conditions or with another train if possible.

The only reason I will stop driving a route or a train is frustrating bugs that never get fixed, despite the years going by. Unfortunately there are quite a few examples of that.

I will always come back to a well made route, especially if newer releases layer in or at least substitute, which gives older routes new life.

 

A route will never feel complete if you made tracks and put walls in front of them. *Cough* OAKVILLE

 

Usually I move on from exclusively playing a new purchase once all service patterns have been complete and all train types have been driven at least once, familiarising myself with the route and locos. The most "uncomplete" feeling routes to me are actually the ones I usually go back to, such as GWE, NTP, SEHS and BML simply because they have the largest variety of things to do.

 

Do not forget that any and all train schedule in any of the trainset are meant to be played only once, so once a scheduled train is done, it is not to be played again

I even had to cheat and replay some on Oakville to be able to get the achievement ( and very disappointed with the fact that even though there is 2 locomotive, it is only one that can do any of the schedule)

 

Fawx's comment is what I was thinking. DTG isn't going to support multiple versions of a route any more than they can support multiple versions of the core game. An enhanced version would supplant the original, and your distinction above between "have to" buy core updates but route updates are "optional" wouldn't apply. And people would question having to pay again for the current version of the route they already bought, and of course would shriek "Paywall!" if DTG threw some bugfixes in the new version while they were at it.

Developing routes is very time-consuming and expensive. The release of the creative tools is giving people a reality check just how much work it is. DTG would need to know that they'd make enough money from sales of the enhanced version to be worth it (and worth pissing off the people who don't want to buy the upgrade or lose the support for the original).

This is the kind of proposal where you, the customer wins, but DTG loses. Kind of like when sports fans propose a player trade that helps their team but makes no sense at all for the other one. A proposal needs to have everyone winning to be taken seriously.

 

I think the premise of the question is completely wrong. It isn't appropriate for a simulator. You don't complete a route, you complete services and scenarios. Once you have completed them you can play them again and again, it never has to end until you get bored or get another route you would rather play. That is even the whole point of dynamic weather, if you have a great service with lots of activity then you can play it repeatedly with dynamic weather and it will be different each time.

TSW is not like a game that people say "I beat it in 10 hours" you don't play once, finish in 10 hours and never play again, that doesn't apply to this type of game. You don't beat TSW you play it.

There will be some people who play it in a certain way, sure, but its not something that I ever want to see like Runescape's completionist cape where you have to do x activities in order to get it, and then every time the game is updated you have to grind again to get the cape. It can be as casual or as involved as people like, there is never going to be a clear threshold of beating the game.

 

So it may be a bit odd but for me, I never have "completed" any route. I may play a route like Sherman Hill 100 times, but maybe 79 times I did the mid day super fruit run in timetable/services from Hermosa-Laramie. A lot of times I find what I like and I stick with it. I am autistic so probably not what typical player is doing but figured I'd share. I don't want you all to think I don't enjoy the game just because I have so little "completion" lol!

 

The more times I read the original question the more concerned I become.

Is this how DTG see TSW: as some sort of video game like point and click or hidden objects? A puzzle game with a definite end or solution?

Don't like the question or the poll alternatives.

I realize that the CM's are not necessarily train fans but it looks like they don't really " get it " that, for the most part, we are. Serious train buffs, I mean. This poll seems to be squarely aimed at the gamers rather than the SIM fans.

Not a good look from my perspective.

 

Not really in tune with this question.

Routes are never complete, and since like collectable and mastery feels like a wierd gimmick for a train Sim game.

Some things in the world lose their fan base because they forget what they are originally....

 

Well tsw is not a game that is really for those looking for a true hard-core simulation and hasn't been. From some trains having dodgy physics, poor sounds, to some routes and stations not looking like their real life counterparts despite Dovetail advertising the game as "authentic", TSW is more of a simcade. However I do feel the marketing has definitely been aiming towards the easily excited casual who doesn't have a clue how trains sound like, how routes look or how railways operate, but sees a train in game and thinks it's the best thing ever

 

First, I never proposed two independent versions of the route, one updated and one not. That was what Fawx said and I replied to that idea.

My Initial concern was, if they don't upgrade routes like that free of charge as it wouldn't be worth it after their kind of thinking (other developers have a different mind set about this and indeed find a economicly efficient way to realize this), then I would even go as far now - as I love some routes - to say I would be even willing to pay for an enhancement/upgrade.

What I had in my mind, and what you can see in my last post, is a way to provide an upgraded scenery layer (an addon for the route DLC) and bring it to sale. That's a different thing to have two different versions of the base route DLC.

That was never my thinking.

2. I honestly do not see any argument against that since DTG basically sells all of their base DLCs in the exact same way, optional for anyone who is interested to acquire them. I am not forced to buy any route extra if I don't want to.

And from DTGs side they would need to find out before which routes are more in favor in the community to enhance them and make an upgrade worth it. For some routes, there for sure would be enough people there who would be willing to pay for an upgrade and in the end it's a win-win for both sides, the costumer gets an upgrade and enhancement to his/her player experience and DGT profits from the sales, just the same procedure like for all other DLCs.

However and this might be the only real caveat from this suggestion of mine, is the technical aspect whether some Implementation like that would be even possible or not, adding scenery as DLC to another scenery. And that's a thing only the developer can find out, neither you nor me.

But apart from that issue, there is nothing to hold against that plan from any side as anyone would profit.

And for anyone who says, "Hey, you got the Editor now! Do it yourself!" it's not only far too early as there is not enough material for the costumers there to learn it properly yet, but also on the other side, what is this for an argumentation that the costumers shall upgrade the game on their own?

The developer has the tools, the knowledge and the experience to do the upgrades properly, not we costumers and we will never have as equal. Also it's not my responsibilty as a costumer to bring the game content forward.

If they do not want to improve their content on their own, the costumer will notice it, old and loyal players the same as players who just bought TSW two weeks ago and the costumers will react on that, sooner or later, but it will happen.

You maybe can fool people for a while, but there is always a border where "Enough is Enough" and some people in the end lost fair in the game and the developer as much that they are going to leave and don't invest in it any longer.

With the release of TSW4 and all the reactions to it, I am asking myself, "Did that already happen?"

For many people, it already has been the last chance to change their mind. Not for me, but I don't know how long it will take.

DTG finally should find a way to do things better. It's not job and responsibilty to find these ways for them.

All what I can do is hint at something to do better with proposals like that. But it's on their turn to do something out of it and regain faith in them, not mine.

 

Reminisce to completing cane creek after tutorial was done and nothing further touched

 

I got two words for you. Preservation Crew

The Preservation Crew was made back in the tsw2 days to do exactly what you are suggesting. They didn't do extensions but they did go back to MSB for instance and improved the scenery in the port area. They added bits and bobs to older routes like pis, populated sidings with trains and improved scenery in some routes which made a difference. However dtg got rid of the preservation crew which was a mistake in my opinion because players aren't going to want to buy every single dlc and will keep playing older ones. There should be a dedicated team that is charged with solely focusing and older dlc's and improving them in the long run.

No company from the games I've played has charged for scenery improvements. They are always free. There is no need to do so. DTG should just have a new Preservation Crew that focuses on older content. It would be a good thing for players. DTG are capable of doing scenery updates, and they know that there are players that want that, but their focus unfortunately is on the next shiny dlc that will probably be riddled with problems to begin with.

 

What I am concerned about as well is the top given answer yet, "Finished all scenarios" with 43 votes.

Not want to change anyone else mind or vote, but the scenarios are usually the one option of these, which are completed the fastest, as we only got a few of them from the developer itself with each DLC.

Having this as top given answer may lead to some misunderstanding, that a route is only worth playing for a few hours with the predesigned scenarios and throw it away quickly thereafter.

I guess the people who voted for this answer, either did it because they think they should have completed all scenarios before having the main objectives of the route completed, or just pulled this as being the first one on top above.

However, any of those could potentially send a wrong signal to the people in charge, that a route is nothing more worth than the scenarios and just is a consumable thing to rush and complete, which probably is not in consense with the majority of who casted a vote for this option, I think.

 

For me, it is a moment when I master the route and the trains that I use to drive there. By mastering I mean I can drive the route HUD-less, so I'm confident how to operate the train(s), how to read the signalling, how the safety systems works and how to react on their indications properly. Just need to check the schedule to know the stopping pattern (on which stations I have to stop) and I'm good to go


Problem with this approach of mine is that, when I finally master the route, I usually abandon the route almost completely, coming back to it very rarely if at all, as it no longer stands any challenge

 

Agreed. That’s why it rubbed me so wrong. To me, this thread screams “we’re gauging what we can invest less in to cut costs”, not “we had a fun discussion in the office”. Like, I don’t even get how you arrive at the idea of “completing” a route in a train sim. If that’s how the people supposed to represent us at DTG think…

 

The premise of the question is fine. Some people do clearly consider routes to be "complete" when certain things are done. Some people do like chasing rewards or objectives. Completing the Scenarios and Achievements makes sense for them. It doesn't mean you can't then carry on with the timetable mood. People play it differently. I rarely touch Scenarios, or care about achievements. I basically just play timetable mode.

This is nothing to do with the CMs or not being a "train fan". They said they were having a discussion internally in the team. The majority of their player base aren't going to be "serious" train fans (whatever that even means). At the end of the day, TSW is a game, a simulator game, but still a game. Just like pretty much any other simulator available on the recreational market (MSFS, XPlane, TSC, DCS) they are all games.
What most people consider as "completing" a game, for the people that actually pursue that, tends to be 1. Finishing all missions (Scenarios), 2. Collecting all Collectibles, 3. Gaining all achievements.

 

For me that is Sherman Hill, even post optimisation I just can’t bring myself to play it. Essentially Notch 6 to 8 climb to the summit and Dynamic yawnfest down the other side, through scenery that is reminiscent of a slightly more arid Rannoch Moor but without a Class 27 or 37 thrash to keep us entertained. Cane Creek is slightly redeemed by the spectacular scenery, though I usually end up driving at rather more than the speed limit and ignore the AP score.

 

I'm picky about the last sentence. I think the question is too loose asked to clearly identify what "completed" means and what people associate with it.

Should it mark the point when I am complete/done with the route or is meant to be it as you propose and just see "complete" regarding the trophies and the route as completed when all objectives/achievements are completed?

But for me "route completed" means "route completed", not "achievements/objectives of route completed".

I don't think this is the case. Concerning the fact, that you need to have an at least half-grown understanding of how to put the train in move, keep it so (safety systems) and make it stop properly (at the right time, right place, without traction lock) it for sure is not considered to be a game for everyone. I would say the majority of people who expect TSW to be a "let's just drive some trains" game are disappointed or frustrated within the first 2 hours.

If one is really ready to ditch himself into the game mechanics and learn these for each locomotive independently, I have no other word to describe him or her as "train fan", honestly.

Also nice from you to make such a hilarious statement for us all without any doubt nor proof.

Again here, you speak for yourself and maybe your own perception, but not us all or most of it. I don't consider completing TSW like that, and how the thread has shown many here share a similar opinion.

 

The safety systems are disabled by default, they are not required to move the train at all. It's pretty easy to get most of the trains in TSW moving. They also all come with tutorials.

I never claimed to be speaking for everyone, but you can look at the poll at the top and see that most people consider finishing the Scenarios as "completing" the route. So currently, that is speaking for most users that took the time to vote.

 

I'm getting the impression that I play TSW quite differently to a lot of other players - there's no such thing as 'completing' a route for me.

I just spawn in on foot somewhere at the current date/time, take over the nearest interesting-looking train and drive it until I get bored. The 'aim' (such as it is) is simply to become better at driving and generally enjoy the ride. I've got no interest personally in keeping a list of completed services or anything like that, and achievements are redundant for me. As you can imagine, the layering systems adds a lot to this experience.

Having said that, I enjoy the collectibles as they encourage exploration of a route on foot, which is one of the key USPs of TSW over TSC.

I almost never play scenarios, almost always timetable mode in dynamic weather.

 

I feel like quite a few people in this thread are looking WAY deeper into the question than makes any sense. There is quite a strong gatekeeping vibe that comes from certain members of this forum.

I for one am glad that you have made TSW as accessible as it is, I never would have gotten into it if it wasn't.

 

True. However a lot of people use them, and this was just an example of mine that I don't consider them to being no "serious train fans".

Depends on the train. But I would say it takes an intermediate level of understanding and patience to learn the mechanics of any train. TSW is a simulator, it's not a GTA or Forza Horizon, where you only need to press W and the train moves forward, S and the train drives backwards.

A majority of player base who aren't "serious train fans" as you stated, wouldn't even come across the border to go through the tutorials.

You said

Well, You didn't say "I think". You didn't say "maybe". You didn't say "perhaps". For me, this is kind of a statement to an unproven fact, which I just can't accept in this way, sorry.

Adding to that we're both in a forum about a train simulator and we are neither employees of DTG nor have any other reason to stay here rather than talking about a train simulator, speaks I think much about that something with this sentence can't be right.

But I would like to end this conversation since it is non-constructive to the thread and would end nowhere else than snowballing each other back.

I stated in my last post, that there is a chance, the understanding of the question and the answers may be different between people and that the top given answer could be voted for a different meaning than someone in the staff might understand it, if voted for that purpose at all.

Adding to that the answer options are not definitive and this is a multiple choice poll, the result in the end is rather useless for anyone to evaluate, because you even can vote twice or more for options with an opposite meaning.

 

I'm probably going to contradict myself here, but the day I see any route in TSW complete will be the day I leave this world. In other words, never.

Wouldn't be the first, second, third etc time I have repeatedly played the exact same service. Chances are if I enjoyed a particular run, I will want to try it again and again and again.

 

I'm also going to say that maybe the reason this thread exists at all is because DTG want to know which aspect of the game they can improve on, or what attracts people to it most.