The whole appeal of the line is the varied landscape it travels through on the journey, from the upmarket hustle and bustle of St Moritz, the woods, the climb up onto the fells and by the lake, then the descent through the rocky terrain before breaking out into the more lush zone on the final descent into Tirano with the added appeal of a bit of street running, too. It's a one off opportunity to represent this route in TSW that can never be repeated. Get it right Rivet and take this back in for further development and extension to the proper extremeties. Sadly Rivet have been completely quiet in responding to the anguish those of us who love this route are expressing at the decision to cut it off. And why on earth did DTG agree to accept the offering from Rivet of the foreshortened route as they must also sign off on it before agreeing to sell in the TSW store. Surely someone at DTG knows enough about Swiss Railways and could have plucked up the courage to say, "Sorry Rivet, that's not good enough. It's either the whole stretch or don't bother."
Don’t get me wrong - I’ve often seen the Allegra requested. So I’m happy for you and the others that wanted it. It’s just not something that I’m looking forward to, doubly so because I’m particularly passionate about vintage electric locos (don’t get me going about Milwaukee Road electrics or Bundesbahn Einheitseloks - you’ll never get me to stop again ). And I guess it’s pretty balanced vintage/modern across the two RHB routes now.
Italian, German and English for announcements irl for that part. The part we are getting is outside of the Romansch part. Announcement languages depend, on where you are. The order will also switch depending on the main language irl
I agree. In my opinion that would be the correct step. It's not like TSW routes ever get extended (other than the one off cases of SEHS and the NEC redo), so there is only one chance to make the route right. But it being cut in half is silly and very off putting, while in full it would be very appealing. Do you really expect DTG to do that? They have been cutting routes short since the very first add-on route for TSW with GWE - it only goes to Reading, despite the original TSC rendition going to Oxford. Back then pretty much every review said "great for a first add-on, but a bit short in length" - and apparently DTG still hasn't managed to raise the bar since. Most TSW routes are cut short and missing branch lines. Anyway, I am happy that this route is coming to TSW, but I don't see myself buying it. The EMU is not my cup of tea, the wide and empty right of way alongside the tracks looks very bad on the screenshots (despite the rest of the scenery looking good) and I just can't really accept cutting a route in half in the middle.
So I also hope that this will get extended, but I doubt it. BUT: The thing is: It’s the Berninabahn and the classic Berninaexpress wagons are not included. That makes me hoping that we’ll get the ABE4/4 III (other typical loco for that route) with these wagons in the future- and maybe as a bundle with the last kilometres to at least Pontresina? Because remember: Also the Meissen branch was later added, not only NEC and SEHS ;D
Alp Grüm is the stop before Ospizio so that a small part... So the best part is also in Tirano it self with the beautiful streets and church and sqaures
Sadly no Dino. They just see the £££ signs flashing at the thought of the commission they will get for selling this. Just took a run on the TSC version from St Moritz up to Ospizio and reinforces my view not including this section is criminal. TSC also includes both the Allegra and the old 4x/5x Railcars and the BEX coaches. Think my money will be spent buying the TSC Poschiavo to Tirano section (which I'm surprised I haven't) doing the merge and enjoying that.
Meissen branch was made by second party developers who had extra time. Don't think rivet has those types of developers so would have to use their own but they're also working on other projects at the same time
If they actually fixed the out standing issues it would actually be a very strong route imo, problem is it seems unlikely & they have history with WCL. It’s a shame as I do think there’s a lot of good things in their dlcs but they let themselves down and then by not resolving issues give the impression that the don’t really care once they have the initial money.
The cross border Rhb route Italy to Switzerland and it's missing a dual mode loco the Gem4/4 To run on Arosa line use Gem4/4 in diesel mode.
Indeed. I was actually referring more to DTG and third-party developers choosing better, more exciting routes which can feature some different versions of trains we already have in TSW so they are busier and have more variation etc. For example, as TSW already has the Duplex, why not bring the Euroduplex etc.
Yikes, I mean I'm happy for the people who like Alpine Rhätische Bahn routes but personally I'm not really interested in this. I feel like both on TSC and TSW, The focus seems to be on these small Narrow Gauge routes in the Scenic Alps. This of course is understandable, vacation brochures often do the same, focusing on the beautiful Alpine regions. However, Die Schweiz has so much more the offer than just the alps. The SBB has so many standard gauge mainline routes, that users here even suggest. None of these routes are too terribly long either, pretty much within the standard Medium TSW route Length. One route suggestion I've seen and been interested is Zürich HBF - Basel SBB 'Bözbergstrecke'. It is only around 60 - 65 km long yet adds so much Rolling stock variety, offering pretty good city/urban scenery. Yet... we just go with the Alps, Again. For me, this'll be another pass. But for anyone who enjoys the beautiful mountains, I hope you have fun.
Even if it was a mainline route, it would come with 1 piece of rolling stock, given rivet's history or 2 if very lucky so wouldn't do a great job showing how busy the route is. So not necessarily better to do that compared to a scenic route. If rivet can at least include more rolling stock per route, then maybe a mainline is better to do.
I was fortunate to travel on the BEX in the 1980’s when one of these magnificent machines headed the train from Pontresina along with a 51 class railcoach.
Which is shameful really considering the magnificent collection the TSC version comes with. Yet Rivet/DTG will want £30 for this partial route package.
Route length protest march call and response… What do we want? More route. How much more route? A 60% increase in the length. How much more are we willing to pay to get that? Well, erm, nothing actually. So not 60% more then? No… Okay then, protest over, it’s not as if we’d work 60% more for no more money either. Pitchforks down everybody.
To each to their own, but I have expressed it many times that I would be willing to pay more if the quality, length and variety actually increased. But the current state is the worst, because routes are expensive, yet don't offer enough in comparison. In comparison, other simulators will offer much more rolling stock per route for a much lower price.
You are totally missing the point. The shortness of the route in this case makes no sense. It is supposed to be the Bernina Line which runs from St Moritz to Tirano. There is absolutely no operational or aesthetic purpose in choosing Ospizio as an end point. If they didn't have time to do the whole 38 mile route they should have copied sister company Thomson and done St Moritz to Poschiavo, maybe adding Tirano later. This is worse than finishing WCL at St Austell, or would be like doing Edinburgh to Glasgow but ending at Linlithgow. As I said previously, surely someone within the Rivet organisation or whatever focus group they used should have looked at the proposal and said, "Yes, great idea but customers are going to want the whole route."
You might be willing to pay more but not many would as it is expensive enough as it is. What we are getting with this route isn’t perfect but I’m sure for the development costs and projected income Rivet have worked out how much of the route they can realistically make. The services will give ample play time duration as it stands. Other simulators are available for those with a PC if they prefer and they may contain more content but that is irrelevant to TSW and what comes with it as not all train sims have the same complexity. It’s all to do with how much dev time is needed and the commercial environment they are operating in. It’s disappointing for some people but it is pretty normal for TSW routes.
They could do the whole route but would that pay their bills? I don’t know. It’s an awful lot more dev time to pay for. Maybe they should develop their routes at a loss just to please us. I’m not sure though, I’ve never ran a business. Maybe a jumble sale to make up the difference?
Well I'm glad your inside information on Rivet is so astounding. Never ceases to amaze me how people can come on here and defend the indefensible. If they really couldn't afford to do the whole route then why bother at all with it. They stand to lose far more money by not going the full distance from lost sales or waiting for a heavy discount than spending an extra couple of months doing a proper job. And I repeat, TSC Bernina Line is the whole length with the conjoined mod and if you go back to MSTS, both the free and payware versions included the whole line.
As a customer, I don't have to care about their finances. I see a product, see a price and decide if it worth it. As it stands now, the half-length route is a big red flag that makes me not want to buy it. And if you want to talk money, probably more people would be willing to buy the route if it was full length, meaning they could potentially get the invested money back. But half assed product will only get you mediocre sales. Anyways, not that bothered about it, because the rolling stock makes me uninterested in the route to begin with. But if the route was full length, I might consider it even despite the rolling stock included.
As regards Rivet costs, well not based on any inside information but I would not be very surprised if their setup is essentially an association of people working from home in their spare time. Little or no overheads incurred other than the cost of research. And IIRC you can actually view the entire line on Google Maps/Earth in Street View format as Google chartered a train and ran the length of the route with their 360• camera attached.
I just don’t get the choice of end point. It’s a request stop for the most part. If you’re not doing the whole route, then at least stop somewhere logical. It will make the timetable completely wrong. The only bright spot is the Allegra. If it’s good and the dual power systems are implemented properly, it will be nice to have something to drive on Arosa that doesn’t assault my ears.
That's exact why you act like a toddler and crying around... If you have no clue how much time it cost to create another 50min to St Moritz it will help if you make some time to realise what's behind that curtains.... I must say the quality of this route is absolutely a big step forward and the LIDAR hills looks stunning. Speak for youre self!! And where you have any evidence that half routes get less income?! Thats totally unnecessary to claim this with no evidence at all. With respect but this kind of claims are more to make youre own opinion with bluff. You talk like the whole community have the same opinion but instead keep it by youre own and do not reflect the whole system
It's actually around 20 km or 12 miles of which some will have had to be created to provide a realistic setting around the ersatz end point. From my drive in TSC last night most of that is forest or open moorland or lakes. Yes they would have to do Pontresina and St Moritz but if I was the route builder and had any pride at all in my work, would relish the chance to include the operational hub of the line then finish up in the beautiful town of St Moritz. I hate to use the dreaded "L" word but that's what keeps coming to mind. Well certainly a lack of commitment to a project for which they are expecting people to pay £30 for. Maybe someone from Rivet will come on the thread to explain the reasoning, but despite being tagged, thus far quite noteworthy they have elected not to. Part of me hopes Jasper or whoever runs the outfit is currently having urgent talks with his team to see if they can go the extra distance.
OldVern did you ever visit this route in reallife? So if you do you know very well that thats a big size of work.... This route is to build twice the work like Bremen Oldenburg.... If you have ever seen the lake around St Moritz you know what the amount of work that will bring.... For me personally its better to have a halve size route with higher quality with good vibes from the surrounding than a 3hrs route with a very low quality
We're customers, the ammount of work is irrelevant to us. Most people don't want half a product, for a full products price. By creating any section of the route, it ensures that no one else is going to take a stab at it, we only get one shot to get the route in the game. If it's only half of an already short route, we are never getting the rest. Considering Rivets past offerings, I can't say it's all likely the quality is going to be infinitely better here. The improved mountains for example? That's just from the Lidar data.
I would pay more for the full route as I'm sure many others would. I'd rather pay $10 for a screwdriver than $5 for just the handle.
Yes several times over the years and to me the section from St Moritz and the climb from Pontresina through Morteratsch onto the High ground was one of the high points of the experience. The whole line is essentially a visual gourmet meal and deserves to be fully represented, not miss the appetiser!
One thing is for sure, currently im not paying for any of the upcoming releases a full price. The only exception is JTs premiere route. To Rivets Route (lenght) choice. Seems they didnt learn something at all. Like already suggested, there are players with less time to play, which is just normal. So why not split services in 2 parts? Im not saying the screenshots dont look nice, infact the visuals have improved. Just saying im not supporting a half baked cutted route choices. To me it seems the problems just piled up with no possibility to get ever solved. DTG had a new chance with a new franchais, new rolling stock, low amount of devs. 5 years later, a huge mess and 4 different german dosto variants of the same vehicle + about 50+ dlc, every single selfcontained for it self.
Just to pop in, I'd happily pay 40 or even 50€ for the full route. Good products are absolutely worth to pay for. But I wouldn't even pay 20€ for a route that is just 3/4 finished. See, when I pay for things - which I'm more than happy to do - I want the product, the service or whatever I'm paying for to be complete. When I buy a train ticket I expect the train company to give me the service I pay for (getting me to the place agreed upon, with the comfort I paid for etc etc) and not dropping me off 20 km away from the destination. If I go and buy a board game, I expect the game to be complete and I expect to find all pieces of it in the box. I don't mind paying whatever the price is for the game, but I expect a full refund if 25% of the game cards are missing...
Then @ almost £2 per mile that's way, way too expensive for my liking. Rivet sure know how to put customers off, don't they!
DTG can't exactly turn round and say no, when they did exactly the same with Peak Forest. I have enjoyed the majority of Rivet routes, need to see more before I decide on this one though.
It's OK to have another taste, but i look forward to this route a lot. I heard Matt say Rivet learned a lot from the technology used for Training Centre and the Vorarlberg route. I had to opportunity to ride on this route once and it it really is a very special experience, It is not very busy, but there still is a lot going on and the landscape, the curves, is amazing. The route is Unesco World heritage and well deserved.
I would love to have the full length route. But, may only very few people would want to pay the high price. We have to live with this, and yes I always want more, but it is far better than nothing.
I would have thought that people who had been around TSW for a long time would know and appreciate how it works. I have only responded to people asking for much more of the route as if that could just magically appear just because they have asked. If Rivet are offering what they are offering it is because they have already thought about it, costed it up, and decided on what section of the route to make. They already know the full route would be desirable for many players and I don’t think they are making just the section they are to spite or shortchange anyone, it’ll be because that’s what they can realistically offer. I’m not defending them for doing this, they are big boys and can look after themselves without my help, and if the route comes out flawed I’ll be criticising them for it, but how can they just make the rest of the route without increasing the dev budget? What they are offering now is fine. How long was TSG’s route? Everybody loved that.
Good point however there is a problem with it it's the Marshaling yards which are Basel Muttenz & Zürich Limmattal. Both are Hump Yards and require dedicated locomotives for them. First one is an Eem 923 while the latter uses an Aem940 shunter
It wouldn't necessarily That was a complete route with lots of detail and didn't have major bugs (well pzb bug but was patched out) so players naturally like it
The other incidental feature Rivet are missing by starting at Ospizio are the few sections of the line where you can get the trains up to a reasonably fast speed of 50 - 65 km/h.
It's not about the length, but about the fact that it is an incomplete route. Isle of Wight is also very short, but a complete route. TSG's route is also pretty short, but a complete route from end to end. When a route (and therefore the service you are driving) just stops in the middle of nowhere and ends, it is a big immersion killer. You don't feel like you have completed a service, you merely drove a short section of it. It makes the whole thing feel somewhat pointless (at least to me). Anyway, you are right - they made calculations and made decisions. But we are merely providing feedback saying that in our opinion their decisions are wrong. Noone is asking them to make the complete route without increasing the budget. Most of us are specifically saying they should increase the budget. Take more time and more care, and get a much better product as a result. Then the route would either sell better to begin with, or just increase the price to compensate.
At least that was a full line route and completely put DTG and Rivet to shame. This route is not the whole line. That is the problem. I as a customer don't care nor shouldn't care about operating costs. That's not our obligation. If they are going to make a product that is essentially half baked, I have every right to criticize them and not buy it. They are selling us a product. They aren't a charity. They are charging full price for something that shouldn't be worth $40 especially when there are routes that are that price point, are longer, end to end and have more content. It would be worth $40 if the entire line was made. Having the line end at the middle of nowhere is an immersion killler. You may want to continue to make excuses but in the end, Rivet will most certainly lose sales because of their poor choice. They should've increased their budget and took more time, and then they would've made their money back via sales as it probably would've sold better if it was the entire line. The criticisms here aren't invalid in the slightest
