Yeah i try to explain them that they have no influence over and over but there are many smarter people here, in better words they "thinking" they know how the wheel have to be spinning around to get better income and how many work it is to create the other part of the route... So for me is very clear... Its use less to go further to convince them.
Not gonna lie, I am disappointed that we're not getting the entire route but for me that's not a deal breaker, especially since the journey time is roughly 90 mins, I'm absolutely loving those screenshots and depending on how the route looks during the preview stream (whenever that will be) I might pick this one up.
Based on that logic, would you see it as being ok if Rivet, Dovetail or whoever released an ultra-complex 5 mile section of a route that had a speed limit of 5mph throughout? After all, you're still getting an 'immersive' 60 minute journey from A>B, aren't you? A TSW route should never be about speed of train or complexity of the journey, it should be about creating the best user-experience possible within that route.
I don’t care about route length or speed. I care about logical end points to make for a realistic experience. A request stop in the middle of nowhere is not a logical end point. Edit : To correct my post, on the current timetable it’s not a request stop. Still not logical though.
Even Ambergate on PFR was more logical being a junction, even if it did leave us feeling a bit short changed when the route should have gone to Derby. The overall point being, that none of this is doing TSW and the companies who make content for it any favours when they serve up an illogical portion of a route. Do the logical whole, or don't bother IMHO. Obviously there comes a point at which you have to stop, no one is expecting them to throw in half the Albula Line and I would even accept not going from Pontresina to Samedan if we got St Moritz. But as being presented, this route is just half baked nonsense (Again, IMHO, before the keyboard warriors or mods jump on me once more).
So just a short reminder for everyone saying “TSC version is way better because it’s longer!1!!!!1!”: The Bernina line in TSC is made in two parts, one from Tirano to Poschiavo and one from Poschiavo to St.Moritz. Later one costs the same amount of money as the TSW one and is about equally long and STILL not the complete line! For the complete line you’d also need the other part that costs 25€. This results in 55€ for the whole route, whereas you get 2/3 for 30€. 2/3 for 30€? That’s also the same value for money as you get with the TSW Bernina line! Yes, I also would have liked the route to at least start at Pontresina to have a reasonable start- but immediately not at least giving the route a chance because 1/3 is missing is some kind of overreaction imho. I mean: Many people also liked the TSC St. Moritz- Poschiavo one although it’s also not complete! Not to talk about the fact the graphics are way better in TSW and it’s way harder to produce something like this route in TSW. (And yes, the start and end points in TSC are what I also would have preferred for the TSW version but nevertheless the part from Tirano to Poschiavo is also unbelievably interesting- and included in TSW!)
If you buy the TSC routes in a sale it doesn't work out that expensive. I intend to pick up the Tirano section in a couple of weeks when the Steam autumn sale begins. At this point the debate isn't about money. It's about releasing a route that starts (or ends) literally in the middle of the moorland. Yes, St Moritz/Samedan to Poschiavo raised a few eyebrows when Thomson released the first take at the route, but at least it ran between logical locations even if we had to wait for the final bit of the descent into Tirano. And one would have hoped Rivet, who are something of a spin off from Thomson anyway would have learned from the complaints they did get about their TSC decision. So it is most definitely not over-reaction to suggest that a route listed as UNESCO Railway Heritage, listed as one of the Top Five scenic journeys in Europe by Thomas Cook (before going out of business) in their European Timetable should be given full justice in TSW. Unlike TSC we know that Rivet will not return to finish the job. No one else will attempt to do the route whether as freeware (if/when the public editor is up to it) or payware so we will be forever stuck with whatever Rivet decide to fire and forget.
My problem with the length is, with 2/3 of the route done, we won't ever get the last 1/3. Because jsut 1/3 does not make any sense to do as a future DLC. And even if they did, there is still no tech to merge the routes
Well they never did with WCL finishing at St Austell when they could have pushed a few miles east to Par, a major junction and much better location to end the route. So hence the dismay that what has been announced is forever what we will get - unless of course Jasper_Rivet who I once again invite to comment in the thread can confirm they have such a plan up their sleeves. A commitment to an extension to St Moritz and Samedan together with one of the original 4x or 5x railcars in a follow up pack might cause me to relent - as stated by several previously I actually have no issue paying a slightly premium price to get such an iconic route... in its entirity.
We are merely providing feedback based on our opinions. If we have no influence over it, then they are not getting sales from us. It's that simplet that's how it works in a free market. They are not required to satisfy our needs, but we are not required to buy the product either. But we are providing feedback by saying that if the product offered more, we would be more likely to purchase it. But it seems like the basic concept of providing feedback is too much to some people... If the current section is enough for you, then great. Buy it and be happy, noone is stopping or blaming you. But many of us have higher expectations.
To me, price is irrevelant. I could buy both sections in TSC and merge them to a full route. But in TSW that is not possible, so to me the whole route is pointless with an endpoint as this, because there is no chance to extend it in the future.
And I don’t want to deny that. I’d also be the first to pay more for the entire route, and I’m also disappointed they didn’t go the extra mile- but I personally just think that it is better than nothing. And just because only a few routes were extended doesn’t mean it can’t happen in the future- so I really hope for an add on with the ABe4/4 III, the Berninaexpress coaches and the extra miles
When it comes to routes, I don't think something is better than nothing. By having this route made, nobody is going to make a better version. As there won't be enough market for it. So this will be all we'll ever get for it.
I'm really not so sure about that. £25 for preexisting content plus a paid DLC for an extension is bordering on the cheaper end of AAA game prices....and given the choice, I for one know exactly where I'd prefer to spend that kind of money. Besides, to a lot of people £29.99 is already too much, so a potential £45+ route is just crazy money for what you're actually getting.
I believe thats useless here... If you try to provide it somebody has to listen to that right? If you make a phone call its also really handy somebody has to listen to youre conversation.... In this case my advice is go the RVG forum.... And otherwise as Jesper follow this topic it will not help. The route will release very soon and its in the way how its revealed
DTG are the publishers though. They are the one that ultimately approved this so this is a perfect place to give feedback and share thoughts.
I´m getting really tired of short routes with nonsensical ending points. Kassel-Wüzrburg, SEHS and Dresden-Riesa Network Style route have shown us, they can do better.
I don't see your point? We are providing feedback here. It's up to DTG or Rivet to acknowledge it or dismiss it. Whether I post it here or on Rivet's forums does not really matter, as they tend to read both.
Did your opion have anny effect at all in one of the routes that has released? I mean there is no significant changes made after the community had critism about the lenght right? Or can you give an exemple? I would be great to read! I can't remember any one! Point is by nearly every DLC this kind of "feedback" so you call it but i have no clue what the results are... Let me be clear im not against youre objection about the length! Its not the best choosen situation but i try to understand both sides. Its bad that they dindt extend the route but the length of the route is way longer than the real miles due the point how the route in reallife is build... You traveling 4/5 the same spot when you go down to potschiavo so the claim from a to b is not the whole story there
Riesa Dresden. They added the branch to Meiben after the route came out after backlash. Criticisms of the HS1 section of sehs led to improvements in that area as well.
The Meißen part is not the full story... DTG had this plan from te beginning but the time was limited.... Ashford is a corona story... TSW3 was difficult due to the period and the staff was not available to create a third full route...
Well not a route specifically, but remember when TSW2 first got announced and they said all TSW2020 content would be left behind? Big community uproar made DTG change their mind and made old add-ons compatible with the new release. Same story with the Creators Club, which was supposed to be a subscription service, but they ended up making it free due to all the negative feedback. While these might be not the examples you are looking for, but they are great examples that if criticism is given, sometimes they do listen and change their original plans. And while I don't remember any drastic change regarding any route upon release, I do believe there has been at least a few occasions where they have made changed due to community feedback, like including additional rolling stock or changing up a few things. But you are right, so close to release it's pretty unheard of to make such a drastic change and completely altering the scope of the route. It would require finishing the route, signalling, timetable and scenarios. But I still believe it would be the right thing to do, so I will voice my opinion. I don't expect them to listen, but why would that stop me? I don't loose anything by whining here and giving feedback. And well, there is always the "what if", the slight chance that they listen, however unlikely that is. And even if they don't listen, then at least they have heard the feedback and in case the route sells poorly, they will know the reason very well (instead of blaming it on the country or something else).
Well the moral of the story is that if you don’t complain, nothing will get done. Chances are if you complain still nothing will get done, as train sim developers seem to have a particular arrogance about their business practices. But at least if you do complain it registers the fact people are unhappy and if not for this project may cause a rethink for something else down the road. In the meantime, no truth in the rumour Rivet are branching out into flight sim add ons and making airports. But due to time constraints, they will only be putting down one runway and one terminal at each.
Well, that can be said about pretty much every TSW route... If you dig into them, most of them started out with a much bigger scope, but got cut short because of time constraints. Oakville Subdivision sidings, Sherman Hill third track, New Haven Line section on the Harlem Line route, etc.
False. They had planned to scrap it but changed their mind after backlash. That was the story. It may not be what you want to hear, but it is the truth. Also HS1 had nothing to do with covid. That section was rushed
Fair enough and you have the right to do that! But it brings no big changes but its you free choice to do
Creators club wasn't going to be a subscription service. That wasn't even confirmed by dtg and simply someone going into the files and saying it is cuz it had the word subscription. Unless I'm thinking something different
Sorry that we haven't responded earlier, as you may imagine there's a lot going on over here (which isn't an excuse, talking with you - the community - is equally important)! Please allow me to speak to the team for a little bit longer (hoping to have an answer to many of your questions tomorrow or over the weekend). In the meantime, we're following this thread actively, thanks for all the feedback so far!
You are right, it was not supposed to be a subscription service, but originally it was intended by being accessible through the New Journeys expansion pack. So they wanted to put it behind a paywall, until the community told them it's ridiculous and they decided to change their mind. So the Creators Club being free is thanks to community criticism. Glad to see you here. I do hope the overhelmingly negative reception in this thread is not coming off as too mean. The route looks very good from what we can see so far, but the current end point just makes no sense...
What people want, is more of the route basically. Visually the screenshots look good. But with a short length, single track and only one loco? I don't think there is enough to justify the price, unless they make it like £15. I'd much rather the price go to £30, and do the full route.
....but only if it's a short take-off runway. The rest of it will probably come bundled along with a load of xmas baubles at a later date....for another £7.99.
As it seems, here chances are higher to get an answer than on Rivets forum, I will post my message here too: The first screenshots look not bad. Bit surprised by the part, that we will get, as I was expecting St. Moritz-Poschiavo, but that is ok. A bit disappointed, as most of the route is done, we will probably never get the part St. Moritz-Ospizio Bernina. (Getting 2/3 of the route, missing 1/3) Right now, I am wishing for: - Good sounds (sorry, but last DLCs were pretty rubbish in that sense, especially the coaches on Arosa, that will be reused here; I hope they get a sound update(shopping trolleys)) - Good physics (sorry, but last DLCs were pretty rubbish in that sense, especially the Ge 4/4 II) - more snow build-up (feature from TSW3 onwards). We are on a mountain in the Alps. Some questions: Will the destinations on the Allegra be dynamic (use destinations from the route), or are they predetermined? (Done like on the Flirt?) Will the compositions be varied, not always 2-3 coaches only? (IRL, you can regularly see between 0-7 coaches, depending on season and time). The type of coaches we are getting, there are not many of irl. So we will only get very short boring trains, or are you going to invent more coach numbers? Will we get layers from Arosa, and the aggregate pack? (Wood waggon, and aggregate waggon. That observation coach is not allowed on Bernina, there they use smaller ones) Will the Allegra lift automatically second panto, when it needs more current (like irl)? or will it use 2 pantos all the time while under DC? Any changes to request stops, or same as on Arosa, where they have no influence, and stops are predetermined? (If yes, see next question too) Will stations and train randomly ask for request stop? Have shunting signals been updated, to show correctly their aspect on the back (typical swiss feature)? This was bugged on Arosa Can the Allegra show a white light on its back, when coupled to coaches (does not work on Ge 4/4 II, is a typical swiss signal)? Can you please look at adding a train end signal? Those are required on street running trains. was already missing on Arosa. Is the SiSte (swiss Sifa) included? Is ZSI included? (ZSI probably yes, as ZSI-90 was found in TSW core) What year will the route be set in? Are the Bernina Express represented with regular stock, or will they be a loco DLC (if route is good, I would love a loco-DLC with ABe 4/4 III and BEX-coaches)? AND: The baggage coach shown in your picture is not allowed on Bernina!!
yea scenery is looking in good development in some pictures but also quite strong quality in others from intial pictures, I’ll keep an eye on this one for after Z-Fighting fixes come through as I won’t be making purchases regardless until that’s sorted unless I can be absolute certain it’s not affected by that. (I’m putting my hope and trust in DTG to help with that when the team is finished with crashing concerns) From my perspective it looks like they’ve come far for scenery since Arosa, I’ve heard people say it’s down to LiDAR, personally that’s a positive thing, don’t matter if it’s an easy or hard fix as long as good improvements are getting done, that’s a well done in my view. I do think I will stick with the extra 12 miles should be under strong consideration.
Thanks to Jasper for finally responding. Guess we now just have to sit back and see if our concerns have been noted and more importantly acted upon.
Well Its nice to answer, but the complaints are quite obvious and Rivet shouldnt be surprised. In fact during initial brainstorming they should have see that this Swiss journey is illogical and too short.
I would not necessarily say, it is too short, but the terminus is illogical. And it is set in such a way, we will never get the rest of the route. So it will stay incomplete forever, like Albulaline or Surselvaline on TSC.
If the route the guys from Rivet offers us a detailed environment, exciting gameplay and beautiful alpine scenery, it will be a wonderful route. It’s too early to evaluate the guys’ work. I am sure that if the route receives the love of the community, it will definitely be continued in the future. I believe in the Rivet guys and am looking forward to this route. I would like to wish the Rivet team success and patience!
The success of the route will also be heavily influenced by the physics and sounds Rivet use for the train. So far, Rivet had lots of problems with physics and sounds ...
Somehow the brainstorming was definetly lackluster here. (Or missing?) On tsc there was a 1 mile route with a very small steam locomotive (no idea which developper made the dlc and how the name was). I enjoyed it because it represented the real route. This was short but complete. Infact Rivets Screenshots look nice. Also not judging a Route before testing it my self and mix the review of the cl.150 to moan about Rivet. No Somehow they decided to roll out their marketing for a partial Bernina Section in the middle of the release of the highly awaited Jt - Preston Blackpool Route, which has tons of extras beyond the usual tsw releases (at least since im on board from 2021). Multiple liveries, updated cl47...etcetc. From the comments even non era- interested players or non uk fans are interested in their route. The only question which matters: What does Rivet learn from this? Its not too late at this point (delete the announcement and reschedule the entire thing to get it right), but my time where i spend money for halfhearted, shortsighted decisions are finally over in tsw too.
According to Wikipedia the Bernina-Line only runs from St. Moritz to Tirano, not from Chur. (but from there the so called Bernina-Express are driving. The old MSTS-addon Glacier-Express again is "incomplete" because that "train" runs all way down to Zermatt) Also according to Wikipedia, the Albula-Line runs from Thusis to St. Moritz, and the Surselva Line from Reichenau to Disentis. So in terms both routes are in TSC complete. Incomple is "only" the Network of Rhätische Bahn with missing parts: Vereina-Line/~tunnel (the other part from Landquart to Reichenau and Thusis is now as Freeware existing)
And into how many TSC routes is that journey split? :p I know there is a merge but its not like individual rhb routes in tsc are longer than what the tsw bernina will be. While i somewhat understand the criticism regarding the lenght and end point, i think it showed that building longer routes isnt rivets thing yet. Iow 22 is also pretty short (yet complete) but was one of rivets more solid releases. If that lenght means better scenery and rolling stock, im up for it. And on the RhB Network, lenght isnt everything, itll be one of the, if not the longest passenger route in the game time wise. As i said again wait till you see more, and then judge And demanding the whole route from chur is just bsittery, as if dtg or any other dev would ever do that, thats not because rivets allegedly lazyness
I think nobody here questions their work or is judging the product from the screenshots without playing it. Also expecting the Line going from Chur is not something which the topic is about. We announce the new Isle of Weight: Ryde Pierhead - Sandown --> Its about that. Tirano - St.Moritz has a lenght of 60km, from which are currently missing about 20km. Gosh just select another route choice, if your budged is not up to the remaining bit. (How Rivet could have maybe got more attention in satisfying their customers and in the end better sales of their dlcs is another topic. I dont know how their dlcs sold, but i saw the comments past 2.5 years on this forum.)
Three. But they are logical breaks and being able to merge the Albula Line is a bonus really. Thomson did not go uncriticised when they released the first iteration as St Moritz to Poschiavo but operationally it made far more sense than what Rivet are doing.
