How Are You Supposed To Learn British Routes As A Driver?

The reason I love german routes so much is that I can drive with the hud off pretty much without knowing the route. You can either learn it through the kilometer posts along the route, or better yet, use a "buchfahrplan", which tells you exactly where everything is.

My question is, why is this not the case for british routes? There are no kilometer posts to use as reference, so you can't really use something like a buchfahrplan. I'm guessing it's just repetition and experience for the british?

 

year british routes are weird
no offense UK but yeah

 

I started making some notes for East Coastway. See the thread here..
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/east-coastway-route-learning.72109/#post-687923

 

Lots of learning in the classroom, simulators and on the job training.

You pretty much have to learn your route like the back of your hand. Mile posts do exist but they're much smaller and the closest thing we have something like PZB is TPWS which isn't fully implemented on all uk routes. This is a playlist of old BR training videos.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCK407AlvXH2WZsfDdBN2IvWsTrVwFw7k&si=mISvQQFDzD6Uu96I

 

Here's one for example

 

Dare I say it (I know this won’t go down well) but I think this is part of the problem with railways in the UK.

Unions are understandably protective of the job but it gets taken to a ludicrous degree here, such that the working practices & operating philosophy on the railways now is not a great deal different to how it was 70 years ago. Yes there have been advances in safety and procedures but I believe it’s all still formed around the same methodology of drivers only driving very specific bits of track which they have to know by heart. As an outsider it’s archaic to be honest.

I have my flak jacket on, so fire away…

 

It’s just a case of remembering. Not too difficult.

 

You want to check out the NOTAM system we have to use in aviation.. that dates from the 1920s (formalised in the 1940s) and is referred to as Alphabet Vomit..
The reluctance to change is because no-one wants to sign off on something that might cause a smoking hole in the planet, despite the fact that the existing system might cause a smoking hole in the planet. The difference being that one threat has been around for a hundred years which makes it more acceptable than one we might inadvertently create (he said laughing hollowly with much cynicism).

 

The editing and acting on "A Perfect Misunderstanding" is so over the top, it feels like i'm watching a netflix show about train driving. Never thought i'd be having a laugh over a corporate safety video.

 

I work at the sharp end of aviation so am well versed in it. NOTAMs may well date back that far but they have changed considerably since then and they do work. It’s not the NOTAM itself that is the issue, it’s generally the issuing authority that uses 15 words when 1 will do Every single time I come in to work some procedure or other has changed. It’s relentless and in a constant state of flux, but all in the pursuit of improvement, efficiency and safety.

I have family members who drive trains and work for TOCs and am often completely staggered at what they tell me, and just how archaic the railway industry is by comparison to aviation. Not just operationally but from a safety aspect as well. I thought blame cultures had died a death years ago, I can’t quite believe they are alive and well on the modern railway.

It’s almost 2024 and UK train drivers are still limited to driving very specific bits of track which they have to learn off-by-heart. If you were to rip up the manuals and write the procedures again from scratch there is no way that’s what you would come up with as the best way to do things.

 

What do you do within the aviation industry? In my company NOTAMS are regarded as universally unfit for purpose. Runway closures are buried in amongst a plethora of information about cranes 15 miles away from the airport not above 400 feet (as an example).

I suspect the unions have a part to play, but investment has long been a problem too. Just look at Thames Water in terms of the broader conversation.

Edit- In terms of the culture, theres always a tug of war between safety, operational resilience and profit. In the industry in general, and I suspect rail and others are no different, the current focus post pandemic is very much on operational resilience and profit. Safety has taken a back seat, largely because its been at the driving seat for a while. If you look at every large company before a big accident, the culture shifts. NASA had it with the boosters where management went from 'show me how its safe' to 'show me how its dangerous'. These are indicators of a poor culture that leads to latent and active errors becoming much more of a threat, and with cost cutting, shortage of staff, experience deficits post pandemic fire and rehire and pressure for operational resilience its easy to see how the holes in the cheese line up.

What comes across as union recalcitrance is often the final defence.

 

British routes are no weirder than what foreign routes are to me

 

i always thought the reason for such an ancient railway was just not spending money on things. such as atp

 

Helmsman, 1st Class

I think Union recalcitrance exists because of poor culture and poor culture exists, in part, because of Union recalcitrance. I hear plenty of stories of (really) poor and outdated management practices, but equally many stories of the way the unions carry on. Both need to change (and not just in the rail industry), but they clearly both have their heels dug so far into their respective positions I’m not sure it’ll ever happen.

I can only speak for my company but safety is, and has always been, the top priority. I would agree that maybe since the Pandemic it feels like our role as the last line of defence is being tested more that it perhaps once was, but that doesn’t stop us exercising our right to say no whenever and however we see fit to protect safety. We do so in the knowledge that we would always be supported in that as well.

 

Absolutely, but I have in just the past few months had flight plans taking us through closed airspace, had rostering asking flight crew to operate outside their role, had illegal rosters constructed or been asked to operate into discretion as routine, had so many DDG items to wade through that my eyes bled (engineering coverage crisis) etc etc. All of this is a result of firing expensive experienced people, suddenly having a staff shortfall post pandemic rebuild, and having to fill the gaps with inexperienced people. This btw is in a major, not even the regionals.
If the train companies are any different I'd be surprised. Safety is not always the top priority, despite the corporate BS, and can come under pressure from operational resilience primarily, and profit secondarily.
The last line of defence has never felt more under attack, and the train drivers unions I would listen to more than railway company management, much as I listen to my own union more than the spreadsheet corporate bean counters.
Its amazing how many management requests get suddenly withdrawn if you ask them to put it in an email...

 

I don’t disagree particularly with any of that, but it’s not really what the thread was about.

The point I was making is that as I understand it, trains in the UK are still operated in much the same way they were 70 years ago. Much of that, I am told, is down to unions protecting something that is outdated by any measure, as part of protecting their wider lot. Management, for their part, foster a culture that means unions have to act in this way because of the relationship they have with their staff. Both are likely at fault, but it doesn’t alter the fact that the way trains are operated in the UK at the end of 2023 is from a different age.

 

As a german non-real life driver I would say I drive HUDless in TSW even without taking care of the kilometer posts or any "Buchfahrpläne", which are available online. The only thing I take care of is the signals, which are also provided in the UK.

Knowing the route and remembering remarkable spots is essential to reduce or increase speed before/after stations. And this technique can be used everywhere around the planet, unless you have a very boring route where everything looks as equal.

But apart from that, a big help for me and this is why I also am a huge activist to get the "Ebula" system finally in TSW, is to watch the times when to arrive and depart at a certain station on any dashboard screen as rather having to press F1 and T again to watch the timetable, and maybe accidentally see a signal by doing so which ruins my immersion.

I wish that Dovetail finally get this done in any way, which would be a big help just for "keeping in the time" aspect of driving and doing your service without the associated obligation to always use the HUD elements for that again.

 

Fair point. I think in order to bring it up to the 2020s, the level of investment would require more than the political system can provide. Shame the money from HS2 wasnt invested more wisely..

As regards being totally back on point, I posted earlier in the thread some notes I'd made for a UK route. I play hudless on that route and know it now reasonably well. Making or printing of diagrams against which you can make notes has worked for me.

I use any railtracking website, search for a station or junction, take a screenshot or snip, print off and annotate. Simples.

 

JetWash sunscreen#8305

Interesting discussion!
I was just remembering recent twists and turns for a lot of airline pilots during the Covid19 pandemic. Becoming train drivers, and why not:

https://www.dw.com/en/airline-pilots-switch-from-runways-to-railways/a-57602148

 

Many did. I believe many of them have come back but some have stayed on the railways. Inevitably the aviation industry is now hugely short of pilots but it’s always the way, cut too deep then pay the consequences not long afterwards. It would be almost funny if it weren’t so predictable.

Of course, the consequences for the poor souls who end up being made redundant can be life changing. I know of people that lost houses, had marriages break up, ended up bankrupt etc. I don’t blame the management for it particularly (although some of ours were particularly vindictive, thankfully they’re no longer part of the organisation), more so the origin of the pandemic in the first place.

 

Yeah it was a tough time. The seniority system meant that a lot of people lost their jobs having just achieved it, also in many cases having just moved house, relocated families etc etc. We had at least one take his own life because of the stress of being made suddenly redundant. What people don't realise is that these days pilots will likely have spent almost a hundred grand for their training. Add to that mortgage etc and I honestly don't know why people these days would want to do it. To think life at the sharp end is a bed of roses is far from reality. I've done other jobs and yes it's good, but I lost friendships over the sacrifices needed to get there, turned grey with financial worry, and am only now in a position to relax a bit, some 20 years after entering the profession.
I ummed and ahhhed about jumping ship but looking at train driver rosters just reminded me of my old short-haul days. I'd prefer to be lonely tired and bored in a long haul hotel room than angry tired and stressed on short haul turnarounds knowing that tomorrow will be a mirror of today. Sadly for those at the bottom of seniority lists, that choice wasn't an option and friends of mine went through massive stress during the pandemic having lost their jobs.
As stated, it's bad enough at the best of times but for those just starting out with that massive debt, it's pressure that I can't imagine.

 

Hide signals from the HUD then? That's what I've done, I only use the HUD for the timetable and for objectives in case the service or scenario wants something out of the ordinary – and have hidden everything else.

Yep. Imo what's missing in Germany is extensive use of signal Ne6 to announce an upcoming stop. Vorarlberg has this and it's soo helpful when driving without HUD.
Anyway, having the Buchfahrplan up on a second screen along with the Kilometer markings helps with the braking and accelerating (end of Weichenbereich) part. But yes, in-game EBuLa would be a game changer

 

When I worked for the railway and had several (officially sanctioned) cab rides I was always impressed by the intimate knowledge of the route the drivers possessed. Every little nuance, the semaphore signals with slightly wonky arms, the open level crossing with hedges up to the sight line (we both had eyes on stalks for that one), spotting PW workers at a distance long before I saw them.

So a considerably higher standard is applied to UK train drivers than the equivalent on our roads where the standards are quite frankly appalling, someone passes a test then the next cursory check is at age 70 unless they are caught committing an offence of course.

 

Completely forgot that I can do that! I didn't play TSW so much lately, so lacking a bit of experience with the settings. Thanks for the tip.

Yes, having Ebula would make things a lot easier and more comfortable, but I asked Matt for how the progress of the Ebula implementation is - if it even is planned for TSW5 in one of the recent streams. He said no, no progress. It would be too hard to implement he also said various times in other streams and in the forum. I personally have the impression that a full Ebula is off the table/vision, unfortunately. :-/

But at least giving the screen an actual use for showing the timetable (which already is in the HUD) would help a lot, not to always need to go into the HUD by pressing F1 and T plus Esc between each station (maybe even more) again and again.

 

…and that was probably appropriate at the time. Technology has moved on however, and I would suggest that what was appropriate then is maybe no longer appropriate now. Better ways of doing things undoubtedly exist. FWIW drivers of larger vehicles face much more stringent checks and regulation than your normal car driver. Ultimately it comes down to risk, and the consequences should something go wrong.

Genuine question, is there another country in the world that still operates their railways like we do? By that I mean relying entirely on the driver’s memory to get from A to B, and where a driver is massively restricted on where they can operate as a result? One thing aviation has learnt over and over again is that human beings are fallible, and if there is a mistake to be made we will make it (which is where a ‘just culture’ is so critical). If enough of those mistakes and external factors come together at the wrong time it often ends in disaster. Aviation isn’t perfect, far from it, but it does seem to be much further ahead than most industries when it comes to understanding the fallibility of human beings, particularly where the human is the last and only line of defence to prevent accidents.

I’m more than happy to hear an opposing viewpoint but again, as an outsider, it seems that sooner or later something has to give. This methodology of route learning over more modern practices (in-cab signalling and the like) seems so outdated and inefficient.

 

But there's nothing wrong with tying this in with an underlying system like the Germans - frequent distance markers and in-cab displays with schedules, stations, and speed limits distance marked. You will still need to be a good driver to know if you should be braking early (known low traction areas) etc, but it would also mean train drivers are much, much more flexible and transferrable. It doesn't detract from the train driver's knowledge, but rather bolsters it with a huge increase in situational awareness, especially if they are on new, unfamiliar or "rusty" routes.

I'm certainly not a driver but I think even most drivers would feel more comfortable barrelling along at 125mph in "pea soup" fog with frequent distance markers for increased awareness of location when most normal markers are now invisible.

 

I would also add that the distance markers are also very helpful when emergency services, maintenance workers, or anyone else who doesn't have route knowledge on the same level as the drivers need to find a specific location on the line.

 

I don't think there's a single country that doesn't demand some sort of route knowledge from their drivers for regular operation. And I don't think it's fair to say that British railways "rely entirely on the driver's memory to get from A to B" - signage has been improved immensely over the years.

British railways also have one of the best safety records in the world today, which perhaps puts things in perspective.

 

Don't know anything about how route knowledge works in the UK and German signalling is definitely way more exhaustive, but "Streckenkunde" (route knowledge) is still very much a thing in Germany and required by most train-operating companies. Often driving without Streckenkunde is still possible but with a lowered speed limit or only in emergencies, so that doesn't make drivers easily transferable from one route to another here, either. Still, I think watching a couple videos (which are provided for most routes) can be enough to gain Streckenkunde so I suppose it's easier to qualify here compared to the UK? For example we now have "Roland und seine Lok", a guy named Roland who bought his own loco and offers freelance train services all over Germany, thus operating on many routes. There are two nice documentaries on him by NDR, definitely a recommendation for those who speak German

(but take all this with a grain of salt as I'm not a train driver myself and only have limited knowledge about how strict Streckenkunde policies are)

 

Hence why I said today.

 

Yeah, nothing like experience of how not to do it, to light a fire under your backside to do it right.

 

There are plenty of signs, you just have to remember what each one means.

For speed restrictions, there are signs telling you of an upcoming restriction and then the restriction itself. All you need to know is when to start braking.

Most of the time, it comes down to route knowledge. Driving the same route in the same train with the same stops and you will eventually just go by instinct.

 

It’s really interesting to hear all the different perspectives in this discussion.

As someone working in the UK rail industry currently, I can say that my experience is that there is a very strong focus on safety. I can give multiple examples, but to keep it (vaguely…) on topic, the amount of route knowledge required by Drivers is a case in point. In reality, we could get away with having reduced the time allowed for Driver to learn the route quite considerably by now. The railway is now well sign-posted, lighting at stations etc is much better, we have colour-lights instead of semaphores almost everywhere (much better at night and in poor visibility) we’re far more stringent on visibility of signals (avoiding structures or foliage in the way, or adding repeaters), the brakes on the trains are much better….I could go on. Yes despite all that, we still insist on Drivers having good route knowledge, give them the time to achieve it, and assess it rigorously.

Sometimes this sort of approach works against the railway. Roads have far lower safety standards, and are cheaper to operate as a result. Politicians baulk at the cost of building and maintaining railways, so focus investment on cheaper roads. There’s a debate to be had as to whether we could save more lives by insisting on slightly less stringent standards, reducing costs to encourage more railways to be built (or more trains on the current ones) and achieving modal-shift from road to rail - but that argument is difficult to quantify and can be a bit of a slippery slope.

What I would say is there’s space for us to be smarter in our safety focus. Route knowledge is an example - we retain that level of knowledge despite all the factors I mentioned because we want to be really, really, really safe…but are we actually just being unnecessarily risk-averse, failing to properly quantify the residual risk and retaining cost to little benefit?

It’s a good discussion, and it’s important to say that it is not by chance that a British railway carriage is one of the safest places in the world to be. The railway in the UK has modernised a lot in the last few decades, and has managed to do it while retaining an outstanding safety record, but there are areas where we could be more efficient, without compromising safety.

 

One fundamental reason British railways differ from most others is the signalling principle it operates on. Tramways are often distinguished from railways by the use of drive-on-sight rather than block signalling, but British railways use block-and-route signalling while Continental railways use block-and-speed signalling.

This means that a British driver is told by the signal where his train will go, but must be able to translate that himself into the necessary speed limits and the distance to the next signal. On the upside, he will also know immediately if the route set is incompatible with his train or intended destination, and would then be expected to stop and query this by radio (or post telephone, or - in increasing rare cases these days - by directly haranguing the hapless bobby through the 'box window!).

Conversely, a German (or Dutch, or Czech, etc.) driver is told by the signal how fast a diverging route may be, but not precisely where it will lead (unless a supplementary route indicator is provided - a comparatively modern introduction and not provided everywhere). It would be entirely possible for the latter to be taken by surprise upon being shunted into an unwired siding in an electric train, and have to hurriedly pull the pantograph down after spotting the lie of the points - regardless of whether he "knows the route" or not.

This is broadly comparable to the difference between the licenced "black cab" driver's city knowledge, which is trained and examined before he can ever pick up a fare, and the modern private-hire driver's reliance on GPS.

Route knowledge is not limited to what's necessary to drive a train under normal conditions in good weather - which is what block-and-speed signalling helps to shortcut. Route knowledge will also give valuable information for use in adverse conditions. In leaf-fall season you will want to know well in advance if there's a steep downhill in a tree-lined cutting on approach to a station or high-risk junction - and signals will not tell you about it. If someone pulls the alarm in the train, you will want to know that there's a disused (but still accessible) station at the other end of that tunnel ahead, which would be a great place to stop and deal with the situation, rather than trying to stop at this end of the tunnel which has no road access and questionable radio coverage. Information about disused stations is probably deleted from the "timetable". And in fog, you have very few visual references to rely on, but you're still expected to keep to time so far as is safe - which you can, if you know the route well enough.

 

You can come to France. We have many different train classes : Marchandises (heavy freight), Messageries (light freight), Voyageurs (passenger). The categories are divided in subclasses for locomotive-hauled trains (called "ordinary rolling stock") : MA80 MA90 MA100 (where number is the max speed and the MA for marchandises), ME100 ME120 ME140 (Messageries), V120 V140 V160 V200 (Voyageurs). Passenger trains can also have cab cars at the opposite and they will have a R prefix : R160 or R200 (Réversibilité). But trains can also fit in the "specialized rolling stock" which includes everything that is not loco hauled (so it includes everything that is not "ordinary rolling stock") which are EMUs and DMUs. They have different codes which will tell you if they obey to some specific speed signs. Oh, and some locomotive hauled reversible trains (with a cab car) are not falling into the R category but into "AR", which belongs to the "specialized rolling stock" even if they are locomotive-hauled And there are other specific train categories for shunting, etc.

Now, about the speeds : the lines have main speed limits which are written in the line-specific handbooks (these handbooks include all the information a driver needs to know for each line he drives on). Speed limits, that's normal, are of course different according to the train category. On the trackside, you have other speed limits that do not appear in the line handbook. They are only present on the trackside and only apply to a stretch of tracks ("zone") where you have different speed signs that could apply to different train (MA80 and MA90, all trains that are MA100 and above, trains that are authorized to go to more than 140 km/h, trains that are EMUs or DMUs excepted some subclasses of EMUs or DMUs, and also some sign specific to tilting trains).

For example you can drive at 140 km/h, then encounter a 100 km/h zone announced by a 100 km/h distant speed sign, and the application of the 100 km/h will be at a Z sign ("pancarte Z") or at a "Km xxx" sign where xxx is the kilometer point where the sign is installed. To resume driving at the line speed (140 km/h) you have to wait for a R sign ("pancarte R").

You can have "speed-transitions" that are not enforced signs : they can be the main builing of a station for example.

And the "mileposts" only show the kilometer you drive on at each kilometer. On the hectometer (each 100 meter) signs you do not have the current kilometer displayed so you have to wait to pass a whole kilometer to know where you are. In Germany there often (always?) is both the kilometer and the hectometer displayed so the drivers quickly knows where he is.

So without extensive line knowledge it is often plain impossible to drive a train in France without risking being "shot" by safety systems such as the KVB.

And that is if you know how to decifer the different buttons labels in the driving cab, because everything is written as an acronym So for example, the throttle is "MP(T)" which means "throttle handle". The door close button could be "BP(CO)FP" which means "door closing control push-button".

Good luck

 

The problem with British railways, I think, is that we're still operating primarily on Victorian infrastructure. Because of that, drivers are required to know more than they actually need to, even if there are signs everywhere.

 

PZB for UK routes please

 

For that, we need modern infrastructure. But for some reason, there is little investment in railways, hampered by the events of the 60s.

 

And for the PZB to work in UK without having to modify the speeds and distances of braking, the trains braking performance must be brought up to the German standards, which are quite high.

 

PZB will probably spend the rest of its days on small branch lines, ETCS is taking over continuously.

 

You will also need a shouting and always repeating "FORCED BRAKE!" voice signal for it then.

 

That's right.

 

Hey, we already fought a war to keep the Gestapo out of Britain…

 

You had your Oswald Mosley...

 

Nobody took him seriously. We can't even take ourselves seriously..

My evidence..

 

I can think of few countries that don't have a lot of rail infrastructure that dates from the 19th or early 20th centuries...

 

I know this is going to sound like a tautology but perhaps that because it wasnt built in the 19th or early 20th centuries.. Im just going to let that one roll for a bit

 

Where the hell does this now come from?

Also we have many things from UK in germany, too. For example, decent british luxury cars and some english locos like the Class 66 (Probably a lot more but this is the only one I have proof of yet).

Why getting into the war topic again out of nowhere?

EDIT: I guess world famous english black humour striked again here.

 

Good point. I find it quite embarrassing. I tried to make light of it with Monty Python (who doesn't like a bit of monty python) but yeah, I was pretty shocked tbh to see that.