Will There Ever Be Any "amazing" Us Routes?

Something I've been thinking about a bit after the release of Blackpool Branches from Just Trains and Niddertalbahn by TSG....

With these dedicated 3rd Party Studios making very well received routes set in their home country, it kind of makes me a bit sad that I don't think anyone will ever make routes like those set in the US, with the only 2 US route developers for TSW being DTG and SHG, I just don't see anything amazing being made by the 2. Seems like every single US route that has released has some issues, either with the stock, the scenery, the timetable, the content, the sounds, etc.....

So while you may get some decent routes now and again (Like Boston Providence) They probably will never shine as well as Blackpool or Niddertalbahn.

So what about 3rd Parties?
Unfortunately for the US, there really isn't a dedicated group of devs from the US that would be able to match what the other 2 have done....

-Searchlight Simulations would of been the closest, but their bridge with DTG and TSW got burned awhile ago and they are committed to their route project with SimRail.

-The group that forms G-Trax probably wont make the jump. Rick Grout earlier this year stepped down as the head guy over there and I doubt that team would make the move over to TSW.

-Milepost Simulations makes OK routes for TSC, but he's just one person and also from the UK.

-High Iron Simulations is mostly made up of the same group of people as G-Trax stuff, aside from a few changes here and there. Not to mention the use of DTM's stuff (Who isn't a very good dev for TSC by himself)

-Everyone else on the TSC side of things only does locomotives, Reppo, Smokebox, Diesel Workshop, Machine Rail, and Travel By Train. And I don't see anyone from the Trainz community making the jump either.

So, unfortunately I just don't see really any US routes that will come anytime in the future being truly amazing like those 2 routes are. And it just kind of casts a shadow of what I feel like will come with the 3 pieces of US content on DTG's roadmap.





On a side note, It will be interesting to see how Union Workshop does in converting over to TSW, their routes are a mixed bag though. Routes like the Wakayama & Sakurai Lines are very good, however the Tōhoku High Speed & Main Line isn't.

 

I'm not American but putting myself in the shoes of someone who is just makes me very sad you guys aren't really getting the content I guess you deserve. DTG do a good enough job (even if it's sometimes hit or miss) but I can understand wanting a route to be done by someone who can put more of the finer details in.

Maybe that guy I think he’s called cactus juice or something could put something together?

 

That's Brandon, who had his hand in the Boston-Providence route, and has another potential route project (Presumed the next DTG TSW route) But he's only one person and can't handle every single aspect of a route.

 

I also wish there was more 3rd party developers making quality US routes! It would be nice to see Just Trains at least try to make a US route.

 

Hopefully the editor allows a group of people, whether they become 3rd party or not to make American content

 

I would say SPG is still the best US route both visually and gameplay wise. Would love to have something on the same level or better.

Peninsula Corridor would also be great, it has good variety with the Baby Bullet and the shunter add-ons, also some freight activity, but sadly the scenery is horribly underdetailed.

All the other US routes are bland, bad scenery and bad attention to detail.

 

This is one of the main reasons why I go back and forth between TSW and TSC. TSC at it's full potential currently has US routes that are populated more with scenery. We can compare LIRR for TSW and TSC along with Peninsula Corridor for TSW and TSC. When it comes to US routes, it looks like more care and attention is put into TSC vs TSW. There are a few good routes in TSW like Boston Providence. New York Trenton has potential but, and the Harlem Line is a good start, but was cut short at only North White Plains. It is unfortunate that TSW US routes are somewhat behind the UK routes but hopefully one day, we get better routes for TSW. It's crazy TSW seems be be behind TSC because DTG have done a better job with TSC when it comes to US routes. Maybe it had something to do with the level of complexity when it comes to route building in TSW along with the time alloted to create routes before they go into production.

 

I don't think the situation changes until there's a US-based 3rd party or DTG opens a US studio that can focus just on US content.

A US-based research team would help quite a bit imo.

The little details and nuances that local knowledge can provide are irreplacable. And, for me, a lot of it is scenery issues- the trains themselves are (usually) very well researched.

Just a small example, but....the yellow school buses. Despite being an iconic American vehicle, they are WAY overrepresented in traffic. An American will notice it being wrong immediately- it's like if every UK route was plastered with those doubledecker london buses.

Or the generic interstate highway sign that appears on every route- a quick localization of those signs would do a lot for immersion at very little dev costs- i'm only talking about the ones visible while driving btw- the approach to Boston springs to mind.

Again, they're small things, but they add up to a very sloppy representation of the US.

Rail operations is a whole other issue but i suspect lack of local knowledge hurts DTG there as well.

 

US based content and DLC time and time again continue to take a back seat on every iteration of a Train Sim, maybe with the exception of something like Run8. And any US content that does get released always ends up needing a helping hand from freelance teams and 3rd party developers. Take Pacific Surfliner for TSC for example. Released in 2013, in April of this year it got a major overhaul, completely transforming it into 2023 standards and bringing it totally up to date. All by freelance guys who did it on their own free time and for free as well. And while it requires some other paid DLC to work, it also includes a lot of custom objects as well. This is just one example of many.

The amount of routes set in Europe and the UK is way higher than what we see in the US. DTG rarely use their resources to reach out and contact those in the US who could help create amazing content like we see in other areas. Not to mention, a lot of the US content is kind of a copy and paste. Almost like it’s a comfort zone DTG doesn’t want to get out of. It’s either a New York based route or something based on the west coast. There have been a few routes outside this but it’s just that, far and few between.

US stuff is just always a bad representation, bland, lacking attention to detail, poorly placed scenery and just scenery in general, not to mention a lot of the same reused from other DLC.

 

I agree, it usually takes modders and the community to bring US stuff to a greater level of detail be it sounds, scenery, physics, and the routes.

One example is the Hudson Line extension to Albany. DTG created it to Croton Harmon but a few people worked on extending the full Hudson line up to Poughkeepsie to cover the entire Metro North service, and even further to allow trains to run up to Albany.

Also, there is one dev that created the Bergen Main Line/Port Jervis line with a few freight spur branches with a very high level of detail and accuracy. Whilst this requires time, more paid DLC's, the finished product is worth it.

 

I'd note that contrary to the OP Smokebox does have route experience with Promontory Summit & Cheyenne 1869, which are both very well made. Plus I'd note Sherman Hill does already exist, in theory that could be backdated and improved upon, meaning you wouldn't need to build a new route from scratch. I think that would be a great base for his existing UP locomotives. The bigger problem I feel would be whether or not steam in its current incarnation would be workable enough for someone like Smokebox to work with. And of course Smokebox doesn't really help those looking for something set anywhere past 1960.

 

You also have to consider the time it takes to create a loco with full simulation, timetable, scenarios, tutorials and a detailed route. I think his loco dlcs took over a year to make in tsc. So tsw would probably take much longer and might not be financially viable to release content and earn enough to make a living unless the team grows

 

Who says I wasn't? Why would I even suggest reworking Sherman Hill as a option if I thought Smokebox could just make a route in the same time as one in TSC? I'd just say he should make a full on new route if that were the case.

 

I mean, it's just easier for DTG to make German and UK content. Being based in the UK, it's easy to get the info they need, and they have local cotacts.
Same with Germany, Lukas has good knowledge of the German rail network, and has friends who work in it.
It's easy comparatively for them to get the information they need, so the routes tend to be better quality. They don't have the same info for the US, and I'd imagine it's probably hard to lure someone from the US, on the salary they would likely pay.

There's nothing stopping a US based 3rd party, their just doesn't seem to be one.

 

Then again, they have developed US passenger routes for TSC which are mostly good quality. While there is still room for improvement, overall it gets the job done and captures the overall feel of the typical american commuter railroad. 4 routes on the top of my list that the devs did a good recreation of for TSC is the Hudson Line, New Haven Line, Long Island Railroad, and NEC Baltimore to Washington Union Station. I am sure there are limitations and complexities when it comes to TSW that can be easily achieved with TSC. With the Preston Blackpool route that was just released, this is the kind of quality that many people who are looking for US routes, may want

 

I also hope that DTG will step up and give US routes more love as the saying goes..Guess one could hope maybe a US 3rd party could step up and do some great new US content ..esp Freight ..i know passenger train s seem to be most popular esp since UK Germany have lots of passenger trains and not as much freight and they dont have long monster freights like in US and in US freight is bigger business than passenger .Dont get me wrong i have lots of UK german routes too and enjoy running all variety of trains steam diesel and electric ihave all the US routes except NY subway and Harlem line .did recently get the LIRR since has commuter and some local freight in real life i do free roam local freights ..

 

Basically they need to appeal to the US (and Canadian) route builders active in TSC and give them some incentive to develop for TSW.

 

Way back, Peninsula Corridor was one of the best routes in TSW. It's rather dated now, but it shows that at one time US routes did get the love. See also Sand Patch, still a great route even today, if a little too A-B. And then there's Clinchfield, which just missed because the little bit of extra effort wasn't made, but where it's good it's awfully good.

 

i have all the US routes except 2 . I have read posts on this forums page saying US routes boring slow etc I love the imersion challenge of trying to get a long heavy freight up and then down the grades .do wish they could add some more track side indutries and local freight switching it a big part in US rail operations

 

Yes, I'm also a big fan of switching operations and pick- up freight workings which are more common in TSC routes.

I think there is a broader problem for US freight fans. When DTG or partners make UK and German routes, they can count on a sizeable market in those countries and don't need the US market so much. When they make US routes they need to attract substantial sales from European players because the US market is smaller. That's why we end up with a lot of East Coast passenger routes and just the occasional freight line with fewer American dlc overall.

I don't know what's in store for the next couple of American routes on the Roadmap but they're likely to be east or west coast passenger lines.

Be nice to get a mixed freight/passenger route like the Racetrack but they need that Metra licence. That line is very busy with fast freight, commuter trains and the daily Amtrak " Chief ". Alternatively, there's the " Hiawatha " with freight and commuter traffic in addition to the dozen or so Amtrak runs between Chicago and Milwaukee and the upcoming boost in traffic to the Twin Cities.

Good discussion. Let's keep it going.

 

Excellent post. Agree with all of it.

 

Peninsula Corridor is very good gameplay wise by offering the full line up to San Jose, and having both the F40PHs, Baby Bullet stock, some UP freight and the CalTrain MP15 - the timetable is varied and there is much to do on the line. The only issue with that route is pretty much the scenery, which looked bad even for it's time.

 

Yeah, the scenery is honestly terrible. The hill/mountains are just featureless blobs. It would honestly look amazing visually if it was made now.

 

Yes I would go for an SEHS- type redo of Peninsula Corridor with improved scenery and the Gilroy extension, perhaps as part of the Summer 2024 launch package.

 

That would certainly be great. Pretty much "only" the scenery would need to be redone, I think the rest of the route is completely fine.

Though I assume if they were to ever touch Peninsula Corridor again, it would be to make a modern electrified version of it to reflect the present. Personally I wouldn't really be interested in that - the KISS trains just don't have the same feeling as the push-pull sets.

 

Peninsula Corridor was the route that brought me over to TSW in the first place. I got it way back on TSW2020 and loved all the added feature you got that TSC didn’t offer. The trainsets are done very well. Scenery left a lot to be desired and you could tell DTG was still learning. Lots of objects reused. But I moved onto TSW2 when it was released because the route “worked” for it but unfortunately it did not. It completely broke Caltrain on TSW2. So I gave up and didn’t bother with TSW3. The only reason I returned to the franchise was because of the Metrolink Antelope Valley Line, of which I am quite familiar with in real life. Lol.

I must say I find it kind of sad though that TSC is looked at as having more capabilities than its predecessor, TSW. That seems completely backwards. TSW should be the next generation.

 

There is still the section between Redondo Junction and Fullerton Station in Los Angeles which I keep mentioning as a good location for another So Cal route. Amtrak, Amtrak Surfliner, Metrolink and BNSF trains, with UP locals crossing over at various locations on the line.
https://railstream.net/live-cameras/item/fullerton-guest

 

This is a great post.

I'm not sure what happened along the way, but the fact that the experience with Penninsula Corridor has gotten worse as TSW has upgraded and added new features is very telling IMO.

Or, to take a more recent example- New York-Trenton. This SHOULD have been the flagship US route just like SEHS 2.0, and it's a shame because they actually added a LOT to the original route.

But....the original NYP was probably too broken/outdated to use as a base, the new timetable was poor, and so the "upgraded" NYT was a disaster at launch and is still compromised to some degree. There are performance issues and the route doesn't include the section to New Rochelle, or the freight services of the original route, or Morrisville Yard, which would really have made the route feel more complete. None of those missing pieces is essential on their own, but again, we're looking for "amazing", right?

The thing is i do have some sympathy for DTG, because i think there's a fairly even divide in the playerbase between fans of new locations/new routes/new trains, and those who would prefer them to really dig into a few hub locations and make true networks with a huge variety of layers.

If DTG had only focused on, for example, NYC and California for the US, i have to think we'd have better versions of Amtrak/NYT/LIRR/MNRR and UP/CalTrain/Metrolink operations than we do now simply due to budget allocation and dev time focus.

But what about the players whose favorite routes are period routes like Clinchfield? We'd also miss out on experiments like Oakville sub (which was VERY flawed), but i think COULD be awesome given the proper scope and resources.

This issue affects UK as well of course- just wait for the reaction (pro and con) the next time a London/SE region route is announced. Germany lucks out a bit due to how unified the DB network is i guess.

 

Out of curiousity. as a non American. What would be a good route?

 

Have said before, if it had gone from Toronto Union to Niagara Falls it could have been ace. I'm guessing plans to add a faux passenger layer with the Baby Bullet have quietly fallen by the wayside and along with most other DLC it's now considered a "former" project by DTG.

 

Yeah, they kept talking a lot about the passenger layer, then at some point they broke the Baby Bullet stock for Peninsula Corridor and never mentioned the whole deal ever again.

Quite annoying since I only bought Oakville in a sale because of the promised passenger layer... If I knew it never materializes, I would have never purchased it.

 

It's handy for a quick bit of North American action if you don't fancy the endless uphill Notch 8 grind, followed by the dynamics downhill grind. The other thing they broke was the oil loading. You get one mission where you do it yourself, admittedly not prototypical to have the engineer prancing about on the gantry and tank car tops, but subsequent occurrences you just get a sit and wait for 15 minutes message.

 

And even with those, they leave out the MANDATORY safety instruction to uncouple the traction and back it away to a safe distance before loading begins.

 

Oh yes, this has always been a pet peeve of mine, although admittedly a comparatively small issue overall. The stock standard highway sign makes no sense for anything I've ever seen in North America. It wouldn't have to be fancy. How about just a highway shield and a city name? For instance, you could have an interstate 90 shield above the word Boston in BPE. Or 87 and New York in HAR. Or 15 and San Bernardino/Barstow in CJP. Even this would not be anywhere near realistic but would represent an understandable compromise for an acceptable level of effort. The interstate shield isn't even copyrighted, so something like this could be done immediately.

 

Appreciate the confirmation Matt, glad it’s not forgotten.

It’s a hard one to call but I definitely think a mixture of freight and passenger plus the chance for a bit of fast running. Without mentioning specifics (well ever so slightly ), I always thought the territory covered by a couple of the old SIAM games we know and love would translate well into a driving experience. The first was the old BN Funnel between Sandpoint and Spokane (before modernisation) with a varied mix of fast intermodal trains, manifests, grain drags and a couple of locals. And Amtrak, albeit at night. The second was the MPKS, St Louis to Kansas City where you choose to route freight via Sedalia or River Sub. Too big in its entirety but part would be interesting, again with a mix of traffic and two Amtrak services in each direction daily.

The other big one for me would be something in the Canadian Rockies, preferably CP but before VIA pulled The Canadian from the Calgary/Revelstoke route and ran via Jasper and the CN instead. Though to some extent we are back to grinding up and downhill with that, the glorious scenery would compensate.

 

I am sorry but that last paragraph does not belong with the USA route, Canada is not part of the USA, and that should be remove from this message
It is like saying that UK is Germany, or vice-versa

 

It's North American, and the US and Canadian railways are linked, and very similar.

 

For me it's variety/replayability.
Ideally something like SEHS. Variety of rolling stock, as well as service variety.
If its a freight focused route, shunting is crucial, but also I really enjoy when I need to load/unload the freight like with coal/limestone/oil.

 

it does not say North America route, it says USA route

they maybe similar, but are not at all the same

 

Definitely a mix of freight and passenger, with a good attention to the overall detail and a nice challenging drive with interesting scenery.

I know you said without going into a full suggestion, but something like Marias Pass. It has the Empire Builder for passenger fans, a very active mainline and local industries, challenging grades, and PNW mountain scenery that changes to arid plains once you get out of the mountains.

 

Really? How parochial. I'm sure the thread OP doesn't have a problem bringing in Canada. It was used to illustrate the type of route that ought to be considered. In any event US and Canadian railways are more alike in terms of operation and equipment than the UK compared to Germany or another European country. If a moderater isn't happy with me mentioning a Canadian route in passing, they can redact it out.

Anyhow back on topic, where North America is concerned, another factor is not just the route but the operations too. Many of us know and enjoy playing Run 8 where one of the main appeals is the ability to service industry - drop the cars at industrial spurs and after a period of real time (which varies from a few hours to several days) collect them with a local freight and return to a marshalling yard to sort into outgoing manifests. The next incoming manifests can be broken down into locals and worked back out to the industry locations. Kind of an emergent ongoing gameplay, rather than A to B or switching with no real purpose.

 

As mentioned previously, I would say something similar to Peninsula Corridor, but with better scenery quality.

Peninsula Corridor already has good rolling stock available in the form of both passenger sets (F40PHs and Baby Bullet), UP freight and the CalTrain switcher. The timetable also provides realistic passenger operations, varied maintanance tasks with the switcher and some basic freight with the UP stock, which even includes hopper unloading! The route is also mostly a full line up to San Jose - sure Gilroy is missing, but as far as I know, most trains stop at San Jose and only a few services go to Gilroy(?).

So Peninsula Corridor with all the add-ons is pretty much a complete package, representing a working railway with lots to do and great variety. The only problem with that route is the horribly weak scenery. If it had better scenery, it would be easily one of the best TSW routes.

SPG is also pretty good, though a bit more linear with only being able to do slow freight runs. But looks great, has

Other examples of "amazing" routes would be the new Blackpool route or the SouthEaster HighSpeed Extended. They also include many type of services, good variety of rolling stock and great scenery! I am not an UK guy, but I do enjoy SEHS very much due to all the things it can offer with the varied rolling stock, RHTT, etc, while also looking pretty good scenery wise.

In comparison, look at most other US routes: LIRR, Harlem Line, any of the two NEC lines - they are all missing rolling stock, as a result feel somewhat empty and not varied enough and also stop at illogical stopping points.

 

I would agree with this in terms of visuals. I don't play SPG as much of late as I kind of played it to death when it was the only north american freight route I had and now I have several but I when I do go back and play a service there I am always struck by how nice the texturing is and how much detail is around the immediate track area. I find SPG looks much better than Horseshoe Curve for example, despite their being in the same kind of terrain, location and the Horseshoe add-on being much newer. Texturing and details around the tracks on Horseshoe seem more bland and spartan by comparison.

I agree with what people have said here and elsewhere that something with a little more fast running and fewer steep hour and half climbs\descents would be welcome. I'm finding I really enjoy some of the freight runs on Antelope Valley. Alot of it is pretty fast and it keeps you busy with alot of speed changes and going back and forth between power and dynamic brakes. I just wish there were more daylight services, only two of the eight are during daylight (though I suppose one more is at dawn if run in the summer), it would have been be nice to have a couple runs north and south during the daylight.

DW

 

I wish they had done more of this with the Oakville route, so much of that route is never used and there are so many little yards and sidings to various industries where you could have made deliveries\pickups. Similar to the services on Sherman Hill where you make trips to the cement plant outside Laramie or the industry outside Cheyenne. Though I think Matt has said in the past that switching services are not popular, so maybe they have data showing few people play these kind of services too?

DW

 

There's a lot of marks that need to be hit for what I would call an "amazing" route, and not just a GOOD route (Peninsula Corridor can be called a good route back in the day, but not amazing)

1. Scenery

The 1st part would be the scenery, the main thing being that the scenery at least looks remotely acceptable, in both the ground textures, trees, buildings, and unique land marks. Sand Patch Grade with its long development cycle back in the day hit this mark pretty well. It looks great, it doesn't have many misplaced buildings (IE floating or sunken in buildings) and it has pretty much all the unique landmarks on the route place (AFAIK) such as the 2 Cheesie Cabooses' at Hyndman. Another good example is how Skyhook Games modeled the Railroaders Memorial Museum in Altoona for HSC. Small things like this helps push the routes to be more authentic vs just random buildings scattered along the map. One thing DTG has improved on are the ground textures as seen in Antelope Valley, it makes distant mountains look much better (Shame Cajon is stuck with its flat 1 texture hills). Another small thing is making sure things don't clip into passing trains, such as trees and platforms. Car traffic, scenery and roads in general needs to not be horrible either, this also includes less European styled vehicles on the map. (We still don't even have a proper 53ft Semi Trailer yet.)

2. Timetable

The timetable needs to also at best try to mimic real life in both times, frequency and the name of the services as well. For the most part most passenger routes have this done correctly (Aside from NYT's original timetable) but freight is somewhat lacking on this part. Alot of recent DTG routes just either don't have proper symbols (Like Antelope Valley or Sherman Hill) or are made up with nonsensical locations (Like a grain train to San Diego on Cajon Pass....). Other things are not having services that would be there IRL if the stock allows. I've mentioned it alot but we never got playable UP traffic between the Palmdale Cutoff and Barstow despite Cajon Pass having it (And instead we got the ATSF F7 pulling modern freight....) There is also a lack of proper switching services at industries, but I think this is more down to the TSW dispatcher than anything (Though with free roam, this could be neglected if siding had their proper freight cars in them and allowing the player to switch them manually)

3. Sounds

Sounds, one thing that can help the immersion of a route. Not much really to say on this as far as locomotives are concerned. When DTG has a research trip with a railroad, it usually goes pretty well (Like with Metrolinks stock with Antelope Valley) Other things would be basic ambient sounds in correct places along a route that makes it feel more alive. Though I do wish freight trains sounded more like the heavy beasts they are.

4. Rolling Stock

Obviously the stock matters, but to make them go from good to amazing is to make sure they work right, make sure their physics are correct for the locomotive. Not to mention small details matter as well. And make sure every feature of a loco works, its safety systems, distance counter, the banking com. Lights work as intended. etc. Basically it needs to function and behave good. One other thing is making sure the loco and rolling stock have their proper number series and design for the era depicted as well, one of my personal pet peeves with some locos. (Like the UP AC44 or the BNSF SD40-2)

5. More Bang for your Buck

One of the last things that would easily push a route from great to amazing (As seen with Blackpool) would be to try and maximized the content that is released with a route. (Within reasons) Sand Patch Grade had something like this where both the older YN2 paint along side the YN3 paint as well, to give the route more variety with services. This could of been applied to many US freight DLCs, Clinchfield Railroad could of had it. Skyhook Games could of done it with the UP AC44, giving us various configurations of it on top of UP's older and newer livery. The CSX C40-8W could of had both CSX's original Dash 8's plus the Ex-Conrail Units they've received. Even something like the UP heritage pack (If it wasn't done so poorly) could of benefited from adding a UP SD70AH on top of UP 1943 and UP 1111.

Hell even something as small as extra boxcar skins could be nice, especially if we get more retro routes. It looks funny seeing only Clinchfield boxcars for CRR, and it would of been nice to see other CSX fallen flags on those cars on the route. (Like C&O, B&O, L&N etc...)

Some routes hit some marks but miss others, there hasn't really been a US route that hits everything right.....

 

Most Caltrain Services now terminate and originate at Tamien Station, 1 stop past San Jose,