Tsw Uses Bad Denuvo Drm Technology Affecting Performance

As discussed in other threads - this is why your game is stuttering independently of movement speed.
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/please-optimize-tsw4-engine-ini.73687/page-4#post-749982

I think we should convince DTG to get rid of Denuvo - many publishers have already done so, more and more games are free from this malware, giving the paying customer the full game performance.

https://store.steampowered.com/curator/26095454-Denuvo-Games/
The best way to achieve removal from the code by DTG is to mention this in your Steam review - eventually Steam will intervene too at some point and might stop hosting Denuvo games or put pressure on the publishers.



I've paid for the game - not for technology that cripples it.
If you treat your customers like pirates, they might become pirates.

 

100% agree with this, I absolutely loathe Denuvo.

 

If Denuvo is such a negative program and many games have had it removed, why does DTG continue to use it? This seems like a poor business practice to me.

 

Denuvo is a LOVE....

 

If this is the case, then I agree that DTG should get rid of Denuvo. I didn't pay for something that causes stutters and there is no reason why DTG should be using this

 

Well, they are not known for making the beat decisions. But if people are loud enough, they might advertise TSW5 next year with being Denuvo free!

 

Well, well. I always used to hate Securom with a vengeance, sounds like Denuvo is even worse.

Mind DTG cripple the game with that rubbish but AFAIK buying and refunding a DLC still leaves the playable files in the content folder, as I have noted previously… ‘nuff said!

 

I never would have guessed this and didn't know there WAS such a thing; but always knew that the stutter was deep in the game code.

 

Denuvo doesn't exist on the console versions, and there are still performance issues. Denuvo is not the problem.

 

There are DIFFERENT performance issues. The differences in presentation actually highlight which issues are down to poor UE4 optimisation (the ones present on PC and console) and which are most likely Denuvo (The frametime stutters seen in other games with Denuvo, regardless of engine, and not seen in TSW on console)

 

Generally Denuvo is not seen as worth using after a certain point where the cost of continuing to pay for it doesn't balance against sales. This is why most games with it will see it removed about a year after release of their last major content update. I imagine with TSW being based on a constant stream of DLC, removal of it would instead make sense each time a new TSW releases and the old one is delisted from stores.

 

Denuvo has now Unreal Engine support, so yeah.

Denuvo by Irdeto Unveils New Features for Enhanced Gaming Security at Gamescom - Irdeto

 

It's funny that... The naughty refund method can be done by anyone, and in most cases I suspect is done by accident. But instead of actual copy protection for DLC like there is in Train Simulator, they instead decided to add the copy protection to the base game, which seems like a lost cause since not many people pirate games anyway and cracking a game that gets constant updates seems like more of a hassle than it's actually work. Plus I'm pretty sure to start the game it checks for Steam anyway, making Denuvo pointless.

 

Correct. If you shut Steam down, TSW instantly closes.

 

Those paks should be useless as the DLC's appid gets removed from your appmanifest and shouldn't load. Also it won't ever receive any update.

 

But they do continue to work, as they never set them up properly. As I said before, I expect that lots of people who refund TSW content on Steam have done this by accident, likely more than anybody doing it intentionally. Plus, Steam doesn't like it when you refund lots of things relatively quickly to discourage you from doing this - I got an email from them a few months ago which was effectively a warning.

In Train Simulator the system works correctly. Any content you have refunded but that is still in the game doesn't work correctly. Quite frankly, the system not working in TSW is Dovetail's fault as it has been an issue for years and they haven't made an attempt to fix it.

 

Do you have prove that Denuvo got impact on TSW performance ? Because what i can say is that Epic version and Microsoft version is completely without that Denuvo and performance is the same like Steam version (and yes i tested all 3 versions). So if you want game without that protection then move to the Epic or Microsoft version but i dont think you will notice any difference.

 

It's one of the main reasons I have a console and still buy games on that over PC. On PC, GoG is my main go-to, but if a game only has a Steam version on PC then https://store.steampowered.com/curator/26095454-Denuvo-Games/ is your friend. In general, any game on this list that I cannot get a version of on PC without it, I buy the XBox port. It's handily kept updated so I can buy games once Denuvo is removed. Monster Hunter Rise I am watching over this winter, as it's due to have it removed probably by Jan and that looks like a perfect fit for my Ayaneo handheld.

 

It definitely affects the game - to which extent depends on your hardware and its game specific implementation.

I'm currently watching some very interesting YT lectures on Denuvo and how to reverse engineer / crack it. Just reading some comments "... hardware killer". Interesting. Now sorting claims from facts.





You can continue blaming it on UE, but I think you're missing the point then. I surely won't be buying another copy from Epic or MS (featuring their own DRM) for direct comparison on my system.

Well, Steam's boss does not like Denuvo for a good reason. It's a lose-lose deal for us and DTG (who pay a lot of money to Denuvo) - the only winner is Denuvo themselves.



"...loading times" - checkmark (impact of console AddonManager code is probably the thing in TSW that is more apparent)
"...sporadic-yet-severe spikes in frame time" - checkmark. The reason for both Engine.ini threads, which achieved to reduce the effect (eventually leading to new issues) but it is still there - and shouldn't be. We can't see the number of refunds due to stuttering unfortunately, but there's a lot of reports in here and elsewhere on TSW's performance.

So the player pays for performance issues, and DTG pay money AND lose customers based on ridiculous piracy predictions by Denuvo themselves, with the effect of actually driving people into using cracked software.

Something to think about. Gabe Newell's arguments against applying this technology are very strong.

 

Sure man... TSW 2 RH was free on Epic, and yes i compared those 2 versions and then Microsoft version of TSW 3 with Steam version... all of them worked the same and i even did couple of tests. so Denuvo in TSW is not a problem. Yes other games can have some impact but its always up to how much are they using from denuvo as there is couple of layers which they can use to protect their games. Basically the same like if you use encryption on your hard drive... if you use one layer then its fast... if you use 3 different encryptions (3 layers) then its little bit slower but more safe and harder to decrypt).

 

That would mean the stuttering is down to bad coding? It is not correlating with your movement speed, so it's nothing to do with tile loading and unloading. And TSW is definitely not the most demanding game in terms of shaders, lighting effects or asset fidelity - still showing issues even on high end systems.

I remember the launch of CSX Heavy Haul which was terrible because of bad design on DTG's end. Not using LODs but cutting draw distance to counteract.

The great Professor Oleander (real life engineer, friend of Smokebox, contributing to some TSC Pro steamers), discovered a lot of things already wrong in this brilliant video.

 

Forgive me, but what is the point of it in TSW? What does it actually do?

 

That is a Good Question, and If so many other Devs have given Denuvo the Boot Why is DTG not, what is the hook that Denuvo has in DTG?

Did a little bit of searching on Steam, for all who don't know or have not seen it.
Fishing Sim World®: Pro Tour - Dovetail Games

 

DTG then should just get rid of Denuvo. There is no point in having this in the game. It's funny how nobody from DTG has yet to respond to this thread either to offer some sort of explanation

 

Basically it's an anti-piracy measure that's supposed to check whether or not you have bough the game when you start it. There are many ways to do this however Denuvo specifically goes "above any beyond" and causes various performance issues.

Now please forgive some rude talk. DTG please, get rid of this giant piece of software BS. At the end of the day, this anti-piracy measure only ever affects (and punishes) your legit, paying customers (since every pirate copy has it fully removed) especially in a game that is constantly fighting CPU performance issues. Also if you want to claim that there is no measurable performance impact, this is by design not possible at least with full anti-tampering.

 

This is what I don’t get though, that’s what Steam is for. If someone was going to go to the trouble of ‘cracking’ the game such that it could run outside of the Steam structure I highly doubt Denuvo would stop them from doing it.

 

Seems it's modifying game data at runtime.

 

Denuvo does make it MUCH harder to crack than simply being on Steam. It's very, very easy to crack Steam DRM. Pretty much any game that just has that will end up on a pirate site within a matter of days.
Some Denuvo games can take months to crack, and if the game is not mainstream popular enough (like TSW4) it's unlikely to ever be cracked before the next installment comes out. It requires substantially more effort for pirates to crack Denuvo.

All that said, I don't think piracy results in enough lost sales (widely debunked at this point) to be worth saddling your paying customers with degraded performance regardless.

 

Denuvo's DRM is harder to crack than Steam's. In part through how well integrated it is with the software (which is related to how it causes the performance issues) There are basically only a handful of people on the entire planet right now who know how to crack it, the likes of Empress and Codex, and a Denuvo crack for a given game can take a couple of months. Which is basically what Denuvo promises, that launch week sales will not be impacted by piracy. TSW is an unlikely candidate for Denuvo being cracked in it, since it's not a major "AAA" title that's going to earn a lot of credit with the scene.

 

Unreal Engine has a known issue with stuttering that indeed has nothing to do with shaders loading, movement speed, etc. – even though those things are going to have a similar effect.

It isn't so much bad coding as a lack of coding. The UE issues with stuttering (that are not to do with shader and tile loading, frame rate drops, etc.) are to do with how it works/puts processes by default (something to do with processes interrupting the renderer, if I understand correctly), and requires coding to get around that, spreading tasks over multiple frames, offloading processes to different processor cores and threads...

It seems optimisation is happening behind the scenes, so they may be getting a handle on these issues slowly. I'm sure it's running smoother than it used to.

 

I think the best approach to piracy I saw was the people who made a management game about running a game developer and they themselves uploaded a copy of the game to piracy websites, but they had modded it so you could never succeed in the game because so many people pirated your games you never made any money.

 

But that's not how it works.

Steam's philosophy is to deliver a better product and service to the customer than the pirates. It works for them, I'm using Steam for ages and am very satisfied with it. Steam are monitoring the Denuvo discussion but do not intervene yet (as it is not a real problem for them so far).

Denuvo twists this around, actually making DRM-free software much more attractive, be it through GOG or pirates.

YouTube is currently experiencing the same effect - fighting against adblockers and even presenting ads to premium users - be sure I am using adblockers, and more and more people that have not yet used them will do so as YT is now bombarding you with ads. So what they are trying to fight suddenly becomes more attractive. This leads to viewers either using adblockers - so monetarized channels will get less money - or people will simply stop watching these channels because of the ridiculous amount of ad breaks - also bad for the channel operators. Lose-Lose.

For german users, check Gronkh's statement on the new YT policy.

 

Does it? TSW4 is already cracked and available on torrent sites and it has been barely out for a few months.

 

Small anecdote. I started purchasing games in my youth as three of my favourite games were broken in the "schoolyard" disk cracks somehow - The Secret of Monkey Island, Geoff Crammond's F1GP and Turrican 2. I also wanted to have printed manuals and virus-free software and became a collector. And I am still buying CDs from bands I like, because I think the creators of these games and music deserve money in return, so they can continue to do their job.

I've paid DM 120,- for Monkey Island 2 in 1992 (same for F1GP, still have the box here). Based on inflation this is now corresponding to a value of €110 - almost double. One reason the Amiga went down and became a victim of piracy - in the end no one wanted to develop for it anymore. Good copy protection did not save it (and had some ugly side effects also, some trackloaders treated your floppy drive so bad that it actually could damage the drive. The floppy sounds were horrible )

Nowadays games and electronic devices have become affordable. Price is not the issue - but service.

 

It's only "cracked", it's the trial version WITHOUT Denuvo that is available on the sites iirc.

 

Are you sure that TSW 3 and TSW 4 from Epic Games are without Denuvo? Some friends bought these versions and they all have an executable size of around 400 MiB+. As far as I know, only TSW 2 from Epic Games is without Denuvo.

 

A quick glance inside the .exe will tell. Ask your friends to.

 

Well, the Amiga had a lot bigger problems- chiefly not having the marketing muscle of Apple and IBM, and the fact that Commodore was in deep financial waters having overleverged to buy Amiga off Atari among other things. And although when it appeared the Amiga may very well have been the best home computer on the market- especially in graphics - it failed to keep up technologically.

 

Oh yes. Commodore was led by a bunch of bureaucrats without technical knowledge or enthusiasm. If you look at the YT video of the german presentation of the Amiga 1000 - it's pretty awkward.



The Amiga was developed by a dedicated and good spirited team of "Silicon Valley hippies", so to say, and Commodore bought them to mass produce the promising system. It was mainly Commodore's fault that it disappeared. The open PC architecture and Doom killed it. Still here on WinUAE though

The short history told by the devs themselves:

 

Just by the size of the executable I already know which versions of TSW have Denuvo, 400 MiB+ has several layers of virtualization, enough to expand additional registers in processing and memory.

TSW 2020 without Denuvo is around 60 MiB. (UE 4.16)
TSW 2, TSW 3 and TSW 4 without Denuvo are around 80 MiB. (UE 4.26)

In relation to Denuvo this is rubbish, it compromises the hardware over the years, but for those who change hardware in a short period of time this is imperceptible.

I only questioned trainsimcz, as he recommended purchasing versions from Epic Games which for him does not have Denuvo, but does have Denuvo, so it's just a warning.

 

Unfortunately Matt security is only as strong as your weakest link, and the pirates will pounce on any opportunity you give them. Exposing paying players to this anti-tamper and then also releasing a version without it is screwing yourself and your customers over. A portion of the money we pay into TSW goes to licence this technology, and if you are making it easier for them to steal, you're throwing our money down the drain as well as your own.

I'm guessing the issue at hand here must be that Denuvo makes the developer pay per unique activation, so when they have a free weekend they disable it to avoid paying many activation fees for people who are only trying the game. I guess the bean counters at Dovetail will have to view the numbers and decide which has a larger impact on their bottom line.

Please try to stay informed as to the latest tricks of the pirates, as I don't want to see your product stolen and I want to feel that my contributions to the development are being used effectively.

 

Hmm. Bubble? I don't think Gabe Newell is living in a bubble.

Why it's included in the Steam distributed version has still not been answered. Of course it's DTG's decision, but be aware it's not criticised for no reason and all the tech research / reverse engineering done in the many videos on YT show so.

DTG may choose to use it, but the customer may choose to not buy it then.

 

Question:
Why is this product from DTG as I posted at the link below free of Denuvo But not TSW on steam?
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...logy-affecting-performance.76070/#post-752215

 

Now THAT'S a thread !! I remember that LOVE when playing Elite on my beloved ZX Spectrum centuries ago...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenslok

 

Well im pretty sure that TSW 3 was without Denuvo on Epic when it was released because i got it there to see if they released TSW 3 with debug file on Epic like they did with TSW 2 So if they added Denuvo later i dont know, i dont own that version anymore. Epic support refund like Steam. So if you want to find out, you can buy it and if you dont like it then you can refund it.

 

Well DTG have a right to protect their intellectual property just as I have the right to protect my computer from the bad guys.

Whatever the effects of anti- piracy software or my anti- virus program might have, it's certainly not visible or detectable on my machine nor does it affect my playing of TSW or any other game.

Frankly, I think these complaints from a few individuals are vacuous and unfounded. There are lots of valid reasons for hitching, stuttering or low frame rates that can be traced mostly to player hardware and how they use it, though there's certainly room for better game optimization too.

TSW is 6 years old. Why is this issue ( if it even is one ) being suddenly raised now?

 

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Well i think pirated version was from Microsoft store, same like TSW 4. Doesnt matter, i dont mind that Denuvo is there as like i wrote before i dont notice any difference between those versions with and without Denuvo, all working the same. What is bothering me more is that Addon Manager which is included in TSW 4. I hope it will improve with that winter core update (dont want to wait for TSW 5 with improve)

 

I am always interested in the overly vocal anti-piracy brigade, you can't help but think they have a hidden agenda - like getting the anti-piracy removed, but what would they gain from that....