In The Continued Evolution Of Tsw How Does Dtg Address This (if At All?): Older Routes Vs New Locos

Not radically, but I would like to point out that we have nowhere to go. On PC, I can get my train fix from many sources - TSC, Zusi, Run8, Diesel Railcar Sim, Sim Rail, … On console, there’s TSW. Only TSW.

 

Don’t worry, apparently the next GTA will have an ‘expansive metro system’ or something to that degree

 

I wouldn’t count on driving it normally, only GTA San Andreas allowed driving trains whenever you wanted, it was very simple mechanics compared to any Train Sim. GTA V was one segment of a mission only with similar mechanics.

GTA IV/V had metro but it was basically a bit better than a cutscene for interaction.

 

Yeah, but it will basic. TSW goes into more detail when it comes to driving trains.

 

By that definition, I could also get my fix in RDR2, which I very much cannot.

 

I get my fix on Metro Sim Hustle, if you know what I mean...

 

If only Densha De Go was available worldwide.

 

And for PC! Not feeling like getting a PS4 just for a single japanese game.

 

It used to be, don't know why they stopped.

 

Imagine using GTA IV to drive trains instead of TSW4. Lol.

 

With the loss of GamePass you could almost guarantee that on Xbox you have a lot less eyes on this game now. Not to mention the number of reviews on Xbox. At least in my region, TSW3 had dozens of reviews and TSW4 has 4.

 

I wasn’t one for game pass myself but can see where it would lose customers not being a thing.

not everyone reviews, but less doesn’t seem like a good sign.

See what DTG respond in future with regards to GamePass, they may reverse that decision to remove it.

 

I'm still curious as to why TSW3 was removed from the online stores then a few weeks ago got mysteriously put back on. Seeing that the concurrent player numbers for TSW3 was still pretty high on Steam vs. TSW4 I either thought it was a desperation move to keep the lights on, or maybe it had to be an active product on the stores for TSW3 to receive its promised updates. Actually did TSW3 even get those updates or are those players circling the bowl like I did last year before the inevitable flush took me down the drain?

 

The TSW 3 updates haven't released yet. It wouldn't suprise me though if they never materialized like the tsw2 updates

 

That's difficult to answer depending on the circumstances at hand. Ideally, I'd like to see routes continue being updated - as seen already with Sherman Hill, Boston Sprinter, or just timetable-wise for Koln-Aachen etc - free of charge. I disagree such approach doesn't have any business justification or lack of interest when many older TSW routes are crying out for lots of loco DLC anyway, thus a way for DTG to earn extra revenue and, in turn, generate new gameplay and/or busier routes. And, if done correctly, a lack of interest for updated older routes vs newer ones is certainly not likely to be an issue; I mean what's going to be more popular, Maintalbahn or an updated London Commuter with a 700/1 as a loco add-on for such?

In my personal opinion, and I'm sure some may agree, I feel that many of the game's routes since TSW 3 have been rather underwhelming compared to the past anyway. Plus, for newer customers, most have likely never played or will ever play several older TSW routes due to being too outdated. So, surely if some of these were indeed updated, would it then start appealing to them now enough to start buying existing loco DLC for these - such as the G6, 204, 187 etc - thus generating more revenue?

If, and I say if, DTG did decide these had to be a paid update, then then it would have to be something special and at a price cheaper than a single loco DLC. Give me a brand-new version of Munich-Augsburg with all the TSW 4 features, rolling stock, busy timetable and maybe a new loco included, then I'd potentially be interested in paying; certainly better than these underwhelming paid gampelay/livery add-ons or newer routes like Maintalbahn.

I don't think it really matters whose route it is, at the end of the day it's part of the same game: TSW. As such, this means there should be much more collaboration/synergy between DTG and third-party developers to work out how they can complement each others' projects/routes to improve the product when able. For example, as soon as DTG chose to bring and develop ECML to TSW, there should of been conversation at some point with Rivet of trying to include the Azuma as AI to Waverley, after-all, Edinburgh is an absolute key part of the East Coast Mainline and E-G is still a newer route that came out this year, so no excuse really. Yes, it might be extra work for Rivet, but surely realism is priority?

That's incorrect, the 700/0 does go all the way to Brighton on some Bedford services in reality, so even having some of these services as an absolute bare minimum would be nice to have. Agree though that optimisation for BML is much-needed.

Indeed. Why I like realism, TSW is still a game so if it means having more services with similar rolling stock that might not be totally correct in reality, that's fine by me as I like using more existing rolling stock. There plenty of routes that do this: 612 for Bremen, RABe 523 for Vorarlberg, TGV for SEHS etc.

In reality, 377/4s don't operate these services as they lack pantograhps. For it to be correct in TSW, DTG would have to include the 377/2.

 

Having the F125 purely as AI traffic for San Bernadino was all I meant for Cajon Pass - apologies, I should of explained this clearer. I appreciate this takes a lot of dev time for rather a small thing, but it's AI traffic like this which means routes can feel even more immersive and basically not lifeless, it's a sim after-all, correct? My point was we now have several trains that are compatible with existing routes to make busier thus it seems a real shame these are underutilised; plus I'm sure many players would be very happy to have existing routes made busier using existing content instead of just through extra paid loco DLC.

But literally NY-Trenton, technically a TSW 3 route received a major timetable update. Going backwards is not always a bad thing, and considering Koln-Aachen - a TSW 2 route! - is getting a major timetable update featuring the likes of the ICE 1 - a TSW 3 loco - I don't see why this is a bad thing? As I mentioned elsewhere, for TSW to be a long-term success, they cannot forget the past.

Absolutely, well said.

Totally agree, there are so many existing routes that are in vital need of new loco DLC and freshness. I much prefer to play an existing route which I know is already going to be great with new rolling stock, instead of potentially a brand-new underwhelming route which also might be empty or feature just an unrealistic one-loco experience. I know which one I'd certainly prefer!

Agreed, well said. A new preservation crew is very much needed and certainly would help improve the realism of TSW for some routes specifically, after-all this is a sim so I want to see as much realism as possible and, as you say, no more empty or one-loco routes considering how other routes have proven to be epic timetable-wise.

 

Updating older route against creation of new route has one difference: number of owners. In case of older route you have a number of owners. So, following you example of London Commuter and releasing and paid update with price lower than single loco DLC, when you would require:

• all TSW4 features;
• updated timetable;
• updated rolling stock;
• adding new loco/rolling stock;

has less business justification that releasing new route, in my opinion.

Main reason is the amount of work required for the updates required by updating old route against creating new one. I cannot be sure of course, but it could be similar, definitely is significant. I remember Matt answering to question if old routes will be updated with ToD4: he replied that it would basically require to re-create route's lighting from scratch hence no chance for such updates as it requires to much work.

So assuming that amount of work for old route update is significant and price should be around 4x times lower than regular price for new route I think it is not profitable for DTG to invest in such updates. Also, new route might seems more attractive in general for whole user base (new+old) than an old route updated, which has to convince current owners to re-buy it (in lower price, but still).

And finally: I like new routes more because I don't know them, hence it is more challenging, than the old ones. My style of playing TSW is that I drive the route to the point when I master all available locos/EMUs/DMUs and know the route as a back of my hand. Even with new stuff I wouldn't be much interested as the route itself would not stand much challenge and new stuff would probably be mastered in few runs.

But all of above is just based on my assumptions and I could be totally wrong. On one hand I believe DTG is not investing in old route updates because they made some research and found it non-profitable. On the other, knowing DTG, they might as well not even consider to make such research yet

 

You're not wrong. Unless they specifically market an older DLC as being newly refreshed / updated to get more eyes and wallets on it, it's not as profitable as marketing new / different / shiny new thing. The shovelware model is based on adding more coal to the fire as often as possible regardless of quality standards.

 

Yes, this seems to apply to the policy since TSC days. The WOW a 797/410 and 66 layer cool brigade seem to the target with some steam fans too for UK content. JT have bucked the trend so will be interesting to see if DTG follow suit but I doubt it. I get the feeling they just dont like anything 80s or 90s anymore....

 

DLC loco/mu packs that include particular types which wouldn’t ordinarily be the main traction on a DLC route..

such as:
Class 153
Class 156
Class 60
Class 67

 

I agree older TSW routes that are part of TSW4 should be upgraded and especially layered with all available locomotives and units. If DTG just stopped the dlc escalator for a while and brought the older routes up to a more modern and acceptable level. There are so may things they could do such as adding steam trains to the WSR, Azuma's to Edinburgh. Adding anything to CN Oakville (!) etc. They could also sell some additional loco packs for the routes we have if they are terrified of stopping the dlc splurge.

 

That old chestnut doesn't wash with me. If you play Trainz 22 there are several routes on there of a very high standard developed by one enthusiast. There is a 125 mile drive from Edinburgh to Newcastle and a run from Bakersfield to Mojave with takes around 2.5 hours to complete, plus several other long routes in Eastern Europe, all are as well detailed, if not more so than TSW routes. In addition Simrail has nearly 600 km of track laid out with scenery, TSC has very long routes indeed. So I think the DTG excuses are just not valid. It costs them more time to produce and if they can't be arsed then put down the price of the add-ons to reflect their shorter nature compared to other games.

 

To be fair, simrail is only long because that's the only route they worked on for several years. I wouldn't want 1 dlc every 2 or 3 years

 

The problem with adding layers to an existing route is that in effect it means creating a new timetable- which is not only time-consuming, fiddly work on its own, but which then requires testing, testing and more testing, lest you get red light bugs and traffic jams. It's a lot of work to demand for free.

 

Umm, no, it does not. DTG keeps saying "basically a rebuild from scratch" for every little change. Sadly it is a scapegoat many game developers started using to make work sound harder than it really is. Just so clarify, I wouldn't want to undermine the effort in their work, because they do great things quite often. But half of the times they say "this requires a rebuild from the ground up", it's just lies.

With the tools they have available, they can very easily update an old timetable by adding new services to the existing ones. Then the simulation nowdays is automated and accelerated, so it's not like it's that hard to test for red lights and traffic jams. But funny how you keep mentioning "testing, testing and more testing" like they ever do any, lol.

And again, these things should be standard practice in software development. This is not "work for free" - this is investing in the trust of your userbase by showing that old content is not abandoned. In return users are more likely to buy content from you, both old and new, because you show that content is not abandoned entirely once it leaves production.
For example, I bought Oakville Subdivison when they promised it will be getting a passenger layer. Because while I did find the original route dull, I did believe it would be quite good fun with passenger trains added. So I bough the route only because improvements were promised for it. Of course, those changes still did not materialize... But you get the point.

 

Like the “not-just-a-reskin” Class 52 for Diesel Legends that carried over a spelling mistake.

 

Or all the SD40 variants that interestingly all have the same issues.

 

Did you just describe DTG DLC as "nutty slack"?

 

I also question that extending or enhancing an existing route requires a complete rebuild, unless no-one bothered to keep an uncooked copy of the gold version on several backup locations. Yes you would need to recompile the timetable but in the case of (say) extending TVL to Boulby, most of the existing services would work as is, all you would need to alter/add are the services too and from the branch and check these don’t kybosh your passenger services around Saltburn.

 

Simrail vs. TSW is like DCS vs. World of Planes. Different level of target customers.