Since it is winter time, I have started playing winter services and snowy scenarios in the past weeks. What I have noticed is that many scenarios that start in snowfall, end up in rain and with the snow all melted. Of course this has been a mechanic in TSW from the beginning - above 0°C is rains and below 0°C it snows. And as descending from a height, the temperature rises a bit and even if you started off in freezing temperatures, it can go above it and the snow turns to rain. But in the case if these scenarios, this does not seem intentional - I assume they are supposed to be snowy from beginning to end. But something must have changed in the core that causes the temperature to change differently compared to when these routes originally released. The check, I looked up videos of the Slippy Descent scenario from Sand Patch Grade and from past videos it shows that in TSW2 this scenario was snowy all the way. Yet in TSW3 (and I assume in TSW4 as well) it start raining half way through the scenario and the snow melts away by the time you reach Cumberland. Same thing happened with one of the scenarios on Arosalinie as well, though I can't remember which one. So it makes me wonder, what changed? Sure, dynamic weather got introduced, but that should have no effect on scenarios with set weather and definitely shouldn't have an effect on temperatures, should it? Anyway, seems like another thing to joing the list of old content getting more and more broken with new releases. Can't even have nice winter scenarios anymore, as everything keeps melting away as you go.
Weather changes in scenarios are completely scripted, and to some extent random, within a given range. You can trigger a weather change after any objective giving min and max parameters (for example Cloudiness min 0.3 max 0.5). Nothing has changed in the core afaik. If you start a custom weather timetable in winter with snow at -6 degrees, it will stay like that during the whole session. Height above sea level doesn't impact anything. An exception may be the sudden weather change, notably in one of the MML scenarios in winter, which will cause overcast skies transition to clear within one frame, looking awkward. This is a bug in the core I guess.
I have noted something like this too, though not properly looked in to it. I do have a little plan to find out though...
Like I said, in scenarios it's all predetermined. For example in TSW2020's Powering America Pt.2 it was raining all the way. Checking the scenario files, they have removed the rain deliberately in TSW2+ from that scenario. So it's not core but content related.
As mentioned, in the Slippy Descent scenario it starts off with snow, but ends up with rain and the snow melted. So the temperature is changing, otherwise it couldn't turn into rain. It also does so mid run, when no objectives are being completed. And this transition didn't use to happen in TSW2. I think what you are saying (that temperature can't change in scenarios) might have been true in TSW and TSW2. So in those releases the snow stayed during your run. But I assume it changed in TSW3 and now elevation affects temperature in scenarios as well, causing the snow to melt as you descend. In standard timetable runs elevation always affected temperatures, as this has been a thing since the very first TSW release. But I assume it is an unintended change in TSW3 for scenarios.
The temperature of routes seems to higher than it were a couple of weeks ago, in the exact same conditions weather wise. This were in a timetable service on ECML.
How cool … the simulation is actually modeling. global warming - what attention to detail. I will show myself out now
Yes, but the temperature change is scripted in the scenario, not something the core game applies by itself. As explained, the scenarios were changed, not the core. Scenario - scripted like a movie Timetable - based on your prefs (Custom/Dynamic)
Honestly I highly doubt it. Why would anyone turn a snowy scenario to a rainy one mid run on purpose? And you're telling me they did it on both the Slippy Descent and on the Arosalinie scenario as well? Seems more like an accidental core change than change in the scenarios themselves, because the same thing is happening on both routes. Also, scripted weather changes in scenarios usually happen when an objective is completed. But these two cases happen when you are just descensing, no objective is being completed.
Then it would happen in a timetable too, using custom weather. Which it doesn't. Content, not core related. And they did change scenarios. You can also trigger an event after a certain amount of time following a previous objective. I would like to show you the scenario timetable, but the editor always crashes upon loading that one. Again, SPG Powering America 2. The initial weather blueprint has been modified, it had Precipitation of 0.3 on start, since TSW2 it has zero. The change was probably done as an initial counter measurement following the Dynamic Braking derailment issues in TSW2.
But it does. Snow turning into rain as you descent (and the other way around) when the temperatures are close to 0°C has always been a thing in TSW, ever since the very first TSW release with Sand Patch Grade. Because the game is simulating temperature change due to elevation change, and whether it snows or rains depends on the temperature, not on what weather you chose. Of you don't believe me, try any mountain route timetable service, choose a date and time when the temperatures are just slightly above freezing point. As you descend, it will turn into rain and the snow will melt even if you have dynamic weather turned off. And you can do it in TSW2 and TSW2020 as well, because this has always been a thing.
Yes, snow or rain depends on the temperature. All I'm saying is in scenarios changes to all aspects of weather can be scripted. You cannot draw conclusions about the core engine based on scenarios - everything is scripted there, using defined ranges allowing for some controlled randomness.
Why not check the theory of height affected temperature change by playing a service on SPG starting from Rockwood, using Custom Weather. Choose a day when we have around zero degrees Celsius, maybe -0.5. Select full precipitation and run downhill, using godmode in x4 time acceleration. Then take note if snow changes to rain. Important: Do not set the temperature using GodMode, as it will then be permanent - but we want to see if there's a variation during the timetable by choosing a starting temperature around zero. Of course, Matt could probably answer the question, but why not find out ourselves? I'll start a run using a GP38-2 Ynb3, here's the details: (This was the first service I ever played in TSW) Highball!
The temperature does change with elevation, I’ve seen it many times. Also, I believe the bad weather in Sand Patch was taken out of the scenarios for TSW2 because adhesion physics were introduced that meant the scenarios would not have been able to be completed if the slippery conditions were left in. It was the first time console players like myself could play that route and I was certainly perplexed initially as to why the voice actors were talking about how foul the weather was despite it being fine throughout in the scenario.
There's no evidence for that. Still doing my test run, passed Hyndman and the temperature has not risen by a single degree yet. (Started at -0.5°C) What you have experienced is not the game engine recognizing a different height, but a) the scenario author placing a weather variable change in the scenario timetable, or b) Dynamic weather randomly changing things. The temperature selected on timetable start via Custom Weather is equal for all parts of the map, for the whole session. There's no "warmer down / colder up there" algorithm. Home Sweet Home, Cumberland Yard. No change. Snow will stay snow
Hyndman and Cumberland are not that much of a height difference. Start from the summit. Or do a run on Arosalinie. I don't know why you need "proof", as this has been a known thing in TSW from the very beginnings.
I see it in TSW2 all the time, and I only play in timetable mode. It can't be dynamic weather causing it in TSW2.
I can’t give any evidence but it is a thing. I remember having a great experience in timetable mode (before dynamic weather was a thing), when I started a service in the rain on LGV and as I climbed in altitude the rain turned to snow and then as I came back down again it turned back to rain. I don’t normally play scenarios and this was definitely a normal timetable mode service. Matt has spoken of the altitude affecting temperature several times on live streams. It’s a feature that’s automatic in Unreal as far as I can recall from when it was talked about in detail on one live stream.
The insistence on the idea of any change in snow coverage during scenarios having to be scripted strikes me as odd when let's be real, if it's not caused by altitude changes, it would be way more likely that it's because of a bug than it being something planned.
I've just never experienced that. Timetable weather never changed. And even on this test run, it should be warmer in Cumberland than in Rockwood in late March. It isn't, not one degree.
Obviously this also needs to be noted as distinct from the save issue where all the snow goes away when reloading a save, since that was always unrelated and down to settings resetting to default on load.
Was just making a note of it because inevitably someone was gonna come into this thread, not read the OP, and think it was about that.
Erm, if you've followed my posts I was starting at Rockwood... if you start a thread then be so fair to at least read the answers. Something that is "known" should be reproducible. So far, it's not, as I've shown here on a full SPG descent. Things that are considered "known" can also be urban legends or your mind playing tricks on you. I'm a bit puzzled, because you started this thread with a question, I'm doing factual empirical research and then you dismiss the whole thing... well case closed for me. Until someone comes up with a timetable service that shows otherwise. And again - your OP only mentions scenarios, in which weather changes are scripted. I showed that the game engine keeps the temperature set at start. If you start in snow in a scenario and end in rain it is because it was deliberately designed this way. And I showed that some scenarios were changed over TSW iterations. And why I need proof? Well, that's the best way to answer technical questions. Of course we can just share opinions and speculate. But that's not getting us anywhere. So be a bit more cooperative - considering you asked the question, fire up TSW2 and do a service matching my test run conditions. Then you'll have your answer. If it starts raining on the way, you will know that "something did change affecting ambient temperature".
Hi Dave just noticed all this,,and it’s pretty interesting. I’m just trying to remember what it was like when I played the SPG route,,,a proper drag to complete all scenarios and routes but did it like. This was a long time back so I’m trying to think back about this whole weather situation. Goes to show you tho have much attention to detail users have. I’d be lost with it all. Lee.
Pretty sure I've noticed it a bunch on Sherman, one of the routes I keep TSW2 installed for on my XBox to avoid the nuclear lighting. I'll set a run going later with snow coverage set to max and record it to see if I can catch it when the snow goes away.
In TSW1 and TSW2, this effect had to be scripted in, if the scenario author bothered to consider it. The change in weather would be tied to the player's progress through the route, not directly to their altitude. In TSW3 there was a new feature simulating the adiabatic lapse rate, ie. the natural temperature changes due to elevation. This would apply at least to dynamic weather, and presumably also to TSW3 scenarios. I remember there was a particular thing about it for Cajon Pass due to the particularly steep climb there, though I've never seen any very obvious effects of it in action on that route (it's one of those American freight routes that I played a bit of and very quickly got bored). I assume this feature is still present in TSW4. Oddly enough, I don't think I've ever seen an actual elevation-dependent weather change in-game. What I have seen, however, is a lot of Journey Mode episodes which start off with a thick layer of snow on the ground, which promptly melts so that you have dark and wet ground by the time you've cleared the station throat. This was on relatively level routes such as Köln-Aachen.
Yeah the immediate snow melting in the first minute of loading in I have definitely run into for a long time.
It may be that my experience of it on Sherman was in TSW3 prior to me uninstalling it from TSW3 and reinstalling it in TSW2 when they updated the lighting. Cajon I definitely tend to experience snowfall starting halfway through runs from San Bernardino, but that could just be the not-so-random-ness of the dynamic weather.
This is one thing I've noticed for a long time with TSW regarding temperatures. For example, if you select a route with a certain date, sometimes it might be -3C, thus allowing snow, however if you chose the exact same date, sometimes it might be well above 0C. It can be frustrating when the latter keeps persisting, especially when you only want snowy weather conditions!
What we need is an overhauled weather system. One where you can predetermined the temperature range, as well as the option for only rain, only snow, or both (particularly for winter).
And most importantly the snow accumulation and melting needs to be slowed down. Currently it goes to full snow coverage and melts way too fast. I don't plan on reinstalling TSW2 just for this if you don't mind, but I will do a few test runs in TSW3 with screenshots.
I've just made a run on Arosa (what a beautiful relaxing route after a stressful day ) Height difference between Chur and Arosa is about 1,150 metres. Same here. Select a day with -0.5 degrees. No temperature change during the whole descent. Snow down in Chur on arrival too. Will now do the same on TSW3. Edit: And I'm instantly noticing how the suspension code in the core broke the Motion Sway on the Ge4/4 in TSW4 (as for the LIRR/Harlem M7, the NTP Class 47, etc), in TSW3 it's smooth as it should be without the vertical rumble.
Although weather in scenarios is scripted, just like always, what that means is that the starting conditions are set- but dynamic weather is active. This means that in TSW 3 and 4 scenarios the weather is subject to change. However, the elevation temperature gradient has always been there- I noticed it in SPG in pre-RH TSW2.
Yeah weather is subject to change, due to placed triggers in scenarios or dynamic weather. But still, after doing tests on SPG and Arosa, there's no evidence for an altitude based temperature change by the game engine itself. Start in snow - end in snow in a timetable using custom weather. Always. I can make a test on TSW2020 too - maybe it was in there but got removed.
If I get time I will test it out on PS5 so there can’t be any mods (including God Mode) affecting anything. The only way to observe the gradient will be to see rain turn to snow or vice versa as is the thing in question. I won’t be able to see temperatures themselves other than the start temp of course. I am interested in seeing if the effect has been removed.
Just a reminder - we're talking about investigating a core feature. In the case of Scenarios (the original thread topic), a weather change is a content feature. GodMode doesn't affect the outcome, even if you manually change a weather parameter, you can reset it and give full control back to the game engine using the "Reset Weather Params" button. I've almost finished my timetable test run on TSW3 Arosa - no temperature change or melting snow, starting with -0.5°C from Arosa. Same behaviour as in TSW4. stujoy I cannot see the temperature too, GodMode only allows you to set it but not to read it - that's why I'm choosing a day with -0.5°C where a change is noticeable due to snow melting and snow turning into rain if temperature rises by a single degree.
Now for TS2020. -2°C is the closest I can get to zero. Love how info on the loco was displayed in the menu... it looked far better imho. Test service: And I don't need to do much - the snow is immediately turning into rain in TSW2020 here. (note how the image at 100% scaling is much sharper than it is now, all the dials and decals are crispy sharp - the rendering quality degraded starting with TSW2) Conclusion: Temperature change / melting snow seems to be a TSW2020 thing, probably TSW2 too (I don't have this installed)
Possibly. Considering the test on TSW2020's SPG, it wasn't something I've expected and consider a bug. Maybe that's because it got removed, it shouldn't start raining when I choose a day with -2°C. And for the first seconds, it was snowing, but the snow cover quickly got washed away So at least you can be sure the weather selection will act as you have intended. Snow stays snow, rain stays rain in the timtable. And in scenarios, the author is master of elements. I really wanted to show you a scenario timetable screenshot, but atm the editor always crashes when opening a DLC timetable (even after duplicating to uncook).
I did a service on Sherman Hill some time ago on TSW3, timed it so that I started at night and finished with the sun up. Across that run it started to snow and covered the whole ground, then a while later it rained and the snow melted, then became sunny by the time I finished.
Are you sure it was a service, not a scenario? Dynamic weather? I've got 2,000 hrs+ on TSW and cannot replicate this.
Yeah, this is dynamic weather behaviour I have experienced in TSW3 timetable services (Niddertalbahn and Glossop are the only routes where the scenarios have properly enticed me to play them) where in the course of a 2hr run the weather will cycle through several different conditions, so you can start out clear, have it switch maybe to fog, then to snow, then to clear skies again, then to rain that causes the snow to go.
