Abstracted from the New Year resolution thread… This is an incredibly poor show if true. DTG Matt and/or DTG JD sorry to tag but when you return from holiday this really deserves some sort of confirmation or denial and if true explanation to those of us who forked out to support the steam element in TSW. The steam routes themselves had issues which may have contributed to poor sales. SoS with the out of scale Crewe station and numerous buggy scenarios and the rogue derailments which took ages to fix. PFR with the illogical start and end points and again the thin timetable with no Buxton shuttles. Again if true this is sadly a wake up call for all those including myself posting for more steam content in the Suggestions forum. Looks like we are wasting our time. If the future of TSW is going to be one handled push to go pull to stop EMU’s which don’t consternate the kiddies then it is a bleak outlook indeed.
So if going by the argument of "poor sales", all that the TSW series is going to be left with is modern EMU/DMU content - which are so easy to drive that they may as well be fully automated, which is where everything is heading. The driver effectively just sits in front of a computer screen on the dash in a mini office monitoring things to make sure it doesn't do anything wrong. One of the reasons why steam and to some extent older diesel content like BR Blue era appeals is because of the more input and skill required from the driver, and the satisfaction of getting it right. Quite frankly, if TSW was to be the "next generation in train simulation" as it was touted upon launch, the steam simulation should have been ready from day 1 of TSWs launch, rather than trying to shoehorn it into a game built around modern electric and diesel content. I thought the whole point of the original TSW concept was to be something like Digital Combat Simulator - a universal simulation framework to which content can be added. Now that it has descended into Football Manager esque yearly iterations with clumsy naming schemes like "TSW2, TSW3, TSW4" with people in possession of older versions locked out of new content, that appears to have eroded.
Can‘t believe people still believe everything they read on the Internet and then it suddenly becomes fact. Even if DTG denied it would anyone believe them anyway? The problem for me isn’t whether they‘ve abandoned it. It’s why it was ever released in its current state. Then they continued to make further DLC with the same issues. It’s clearly nowhere near good enough. So if it is in fact true that steam is not selling well, then it’s hardly surprising. I genuinely fear for the future of TSW. Steam is in a bad state. TSW4 still doesn’t have all its promised features and bug fixes are not keeping pace with new DLC. Then just when you start thinking it’ll be ok, they release Maintalbahn which looks like it was thrown together and somebody just said that‘ll do. All my highlights since TSW2 Rush hour have been from 3rd parties and while they need DTG‘s base game, it’s quite sad that the creators of the game are producing the most lacklustre content. Things need to change, but I have no confidence that they will. Going back to steam, before I further turn this into a general rant. It’s so good in TSC look at the stuff Bossman and others have been putting out. I don’t get how the same company can do it so badly in TSW.
I agree with the part abot newer train just automated office desk ..but seems thats the way now they just want to automate everything with Ai not good for humans ..older trains definitely. More enguaging to run takes acual brain skills ...all this tech stuff making ppl s brains mush lazy etc everytime im out and about people like zobies face glued to their devce
I mean, automated trains in the real world are going to be better in the long run. Trains are the easiest mode of transport to automate, due to their nature as literally being "on rails". Obviously in a game about driving trains, that's not going to be as much fun as actually driving though lol.
DTG doesn’t care about its players. It tries to make out that it does, but actions always speak louder than words and DTG’s actions tell us that all it’s interested in is churning out mediocre content at best. Those actually making the game may want to do better, but management are hell bent on releasing content no matter the quality. Those making the game need to push back harder, or the company will eventually haemorrhage players.
Look Steam trains aren't really my type of trains really, and even though I do not like driving steam trains, I am all for variety in content especially because TSW is a train simulator game, and I also think Steam content should be developed for TSW. But do you have to insult those who do not play Steam content? Like what's your issue with people that like EMUs and DMUs more than Steam trains? That doesn't make you a kiddie. I personally find it more appealing to me than Steam trains. Just because DTG can't sort their stuff out it doesn't automatically make the people who do not play or like Steam content the root of all problems.
DTG's internal reasoning seems to be 'people tried steam [in SoS], didn't like it, sales of follow-up steam content were poor, let's can it' Here's an alternative hypothesis and an outline plan for how to fix it Spirit of Steam sold well, we know this much. That's not massively surprising as it was DTG's first foray into steam. But Spirit of Steam was (and I'm sorry in advance to those who no doubt spent a lot of time working on it) - dreadful. The scope was colossal and would have needed probably 7 or 8 different locos at minimum to do it justice, the timetable was one of the worst in the game (including the daft auto-calculated timings that are impossible to keep up with), and to top it all off, from a player's point of view, the interaction with driving the steam locomotives themselves manage to be both simplistic and confusing. If you've come even from something like TSC's Riviera 50s (which was probably a jumping-on point for a lot of people to steam loco simulation), it's less intuitive and less satisfying. On that basis, why would you risk buying Peak Forest? It's a route that goes (for most people) from somewhere they've never heard of to another place they've never heard of, using traction that doesn't work properly. It's no surprise it didn't sell well. It's a shame too, because it's one of the most scenic and well-modeled routes in the whole of the TSW repertoire, let down only by the traction and the timetable. How to proceed? 1) Build a simpler steam physics model from the ground up that works in a way analogous to something like Victory Works or BMG steam content on TSC. To get steam off the ground, it needs to work as a whole (including firing) from the start. Even the core TSC steam simulation from Riviera 50s would be better for the end user than what we have right now. An overcomplicated and broken physics model serves nobody. If you want to add in perfectly accurate injector modeling etc., do it once the basics are in place and not before. 2) Release an interesting route with a mix of traction types to get those users previously burnt back onboard. Something like Riviera in the early 60s (reuse the 52 Western from WSR, have a Castle or Hall and a Pannier tank) - let players start to learn a route using diesel locos (as a known quantity) before trying steam locos at their own pace. One of the critical errors that DTG has made IMO is to jump into steam-only routes from the start - you're asking people to part with cash with the hope that they will enjoy driving steam locos from the word go. Let them find their way slowly. (Another bonus for Riviera is that it's a well-known route from both real life and TSC, so users are more likely to already be familiar with the area and are taking less of a risk with their cash) An alternative might be to extend Peak Forest to Derby and Manchester and include the Peak 45/0, but I think a new route would sell better. I'd be interested in hearing back from someone at DTG as to why they think this wouldn't work - always happy to have ideas challenged by people in the know.
You do realise that modern Train driving is more than sitting in a seat a pulling a lever, right? There's a lot more to it than that.
DTG have built some half decent routes but just leave them to nothing. The fact that WSR is getting some attention is noteworthy but abandoning SoS and citing poor sales for PFR and coming with modern day dull routes such as Glossop makes us wonder what the strategy is.
There's a lot more to train driving than sitting in a chair pulling a lever. Not too hard to understand is it? There's also: Watching your speed Ensuring you don't pass a red signal Stopping at stations correctly How that means just sitting down pulling levers is beyond me.
I mean they have not long released the flying Scotsman so I wouldn’t say steam has been scrapped for TSW. though before any more steam locos or routes come out, can they not just get the physics sorted out before releasing it. They are going to create a backlog of steam locos with major physics issues if not.
Not to forget that you have to constantly monitor signals and act accordingly using the cab signalling system, possibly contacting the train dispatcher/controller in certain situations, handling issues if something is not working in your train (which may be more difficult if you drive passenger trains), handling cargo/passengers, etc. etc. etc.
Once again, quoting my own reply from another thread, somehow i'm not surprised by this if it's the real deal. Too bad we aren't gonna see much more complex steam engines.
We also never got the fixes for that content either. Still no blood and custard mk1s in timetable mode, still no custom liveries and firing etc.
I can see the future as a tug-of-war between those players who enjoy the " electrostar " train model, as exemplified in routes like BML, BCC and Glossop and those who prefer the older diesel and steam trains on routes like NTP, TVL and, more recently, on BPO. It's not just a matter of either " push to go " versus " takes a little work ". It's also about shiny, pretty colored, squeaky clean, largely silent " buses " as opposed to industrial looking, noisy, smelly, weathered rust buckets. In other words, it's about the kind of railway we want, the look and feel of the driving experience and the environment we drive through. It might also be about age. Not " kiddies " versus " oldsters ", but certainly younger and older, those who experienced the railway in different eras. Unfortunately, DTG seems to have chosen one generation over another.
Modern things are easier to find references for and get sounds and such for. Not surprising that they choose the easy option.
Another thing we'll just have to wait and see if it happens like so many other things that have been added or haven't been added.
I do agree with this honestly, I understand people's grievances with more modern content being added than old Era content as well as the alleged abandoning of Steam content. However, people need to understand that everyone has differing tastes for what train they want to drive. For me personally, I prefer Modern German trains, why? Not because it's "easier" but because it's much more familiar to me in real life. I have seen these trains in person and would love to drive them as opposed to an older Steam/Diesel Loco that I've never seen in my life. Just because an individual likes modern trains doesn't make them a lesser individual, people need to start realizing that. As for Steam content, yeah, this is extremely worrying. The fact that they are outright abandoning due to low sales isn't setting a good precedent for the future... Not that they have been making a good impression by constantly locking improvements behind a new game. If this is indeed true, and they've given up, despite me not being a Steam loco fan, it's very disappointing. At the end of the day, people paid for it, they deserve improvements of those products.
Exactly, everyone has different tastes, and there is space in TSW for all types of rail content. Nobody needs to belittle people for liking different types of train (which happens much too often on this forum with newer stuff).
Regardless of whether it's a one handled EMU or a complex steam loco, it's reasonable to expect high fidelity in terms of all aspects of the modelling, be it the 3D item itself, sound or physics.
I think an issue with DTGs way of approaching this is they have a tendency to go for something in this case steam and went for something big. They didn't do a great job of it if we're honest. But I don't think they can make serious deductions of what doesn't sell well if you don't put that serious time, effort and attention into it. Maybe steam didn't sell well because of all these reasons (Sparce timetables, poor physics, no manual firing, no variety, etc) not because no one wants steam content. Either way DTG really need to address this because there's been absolute silence on steam for far too long. And its a part of the game many of us are passionate about.
I do think abandoning steam would be a shame to those that like steam. Steam isn't my cup of tea either but if the reason to abandon improvements to peak forest is due to lack of sales then I'm sorry but that excuse is just ridiculous when clearly not enough time, effort and attention was put into things like steam physics. Peak Forest is a nice looking route but is let down by lack of service variation, poor physics and starting and ending in the middle of nowhere. Heck, adding diesel trains along with the route would've brought some variety and having the route go to Manchester. It doesn't shock me thst a route like that doesn't sell well. If DTG are gonna release routes that don't offer much or has issues, then expect sales to reflect that. I do think this route had potential even if it isn't something I wouldn't get but wasting potential seems to be DTG's motto lately. It's clear that steam in this game isn't great. It could be better if DTG put more effort to make it better. Also there is nothing wrong with liking emu's or more modern routes. People shouldn't judge those who perfer modern content or older content
Where are the icons? I have said this before in other threads. Mallard nope, 323 yes. Scotsman yes but after 3 years, HST yes but a GWR MTU version which wasn't seen for ages until midland mainline came out, 37s yes but just the two 37/5 freight variants(ok and one Europhenix. Where's the /4s which have a following. They say stuff doesn't sell well but I not sure they know where to tap into. NTP should have been a Settle and Carlisle instead. Reason being its famous.....
Exactly, with the content we had I feel like we could've got a bit more variety for PFR which route building wise is beautiful apart from the odd hill. Transition era from the get go would've appealed to so many people and we have some of the stock although no necessarily in the correcr state but I think reliveried stock would be acceptable? I think especially with the 104 and new freight wagons coming a new steam/transition route has the potential to have some good variety and a new loco. But I hope that dtg haven't got rid of it all.
I think it's pretty poor sportsmanship to pile on DTG while they're on their holiday break and not here to respond. I get as frustrated with DTG as anyone else, but this entire thread is based on a rumor that maybe someone from DTG maybe said something in a Discord- that's hardly an official confirmation. If it is true, it's pretty disappointing- despite the flaws, i quite enjoyed SOS and, especially, Peak Forest despite never really being interested in Steam trains previously. Yes, the physics need work, but seems very premature to just pull the plug. I'm hoping it's a miscommunication. Especially since we have upcoming loco DLC for PFR, and a steam timetable for WSR. The "one-handle emu" moaning is beyond stale at this point- even putting aside that it's all pure opinion, these folks majorly oversell how "complicated" the older trains were. The Pacer and Class 47 that feature on BPO, (which everyone, including myself, raves about) are hardly challenging to drive.
With modern trains, it's all "just one handle you push to make the train go and stop". Thing is, that is pretty much it for all trains, no matter which type. Steam engines, while requiring more attention to driving, are pretty easy.
This is not necessarily true. Depends a lot on the individual loco/train. Also licensing can be a big problem for more modern content while say BR is not a problem at all.
It's a great route but not an icon. Fame sells, Settle to Carlisle, West Highland, Forth Bridge etc...
Fame doesn't always sell. Also, NTP has Standedge Tunnel, the longest tunnel in the country, as well as Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield and Leeds which are all famous stations.
People have been asking about steam physics, manual firing, steam performance, FS and 4F issues for months now. Look at other FS threads. Theres been a significant presence on the forums and other social media platforms for these issues for months and we haven't had anything back on them. Peak Forest tons of feedback all we got was the 4F safety lowered. Not even gonna mention SOS issues. Someone needed to start the thread and we need to start putting pressure on the question if its ever going to be answered imo. Because to me (an avid steam fan like many on the forum) it feels like we haven't had any substantial information for ages now. Especially if they've dropped it off the radar for the foreseeable. And this unofficial leak is the most official communication we've had on any of it.
I mean, there's absolutely nothing indicating it isn't the case when we've gone one and a half years without steam physics being finished.
Yeah, but at the moment, when DTG are literally unable to say anything on the matter. They're being attacked (not the right word but best I could think of) and can't even defend themselves.
I understand what you're saying. But we've been asking these questions for months through perfectly reasonable threads and through official communication lines, submitting tickets and we've had nothing back? The only thing we've heard is from is someone who works for DTG and if what they're saying is true then honestly its even more poor sportsmanship on DTGs part. Now I'm happy to wait for DTG to return but they do really need to address this.
They have more or less abandoned historic American routes after Clinchfield didn't sell well too. There hasn't really been anything since (apart from the low effort Santa Fe F7) and American content is generally rather neglected, especially freight.
It's a forum. Just because it may be the holidays doesn't mean people shouldn't start topics due to DTG choosing not to respond
Let's wait and see what 2024 brings... Since Spirit of Steam released, we seem to be on the pattern of one steam route per year. Nonetheless, I find this rumour concerning and if it turns out to be turn, I'll be extremely disappointed. I generally enjoy a bit of everything in TSW, but my true railway love will always be steam locomotives. I do admit I find the EMU after EMU route releases a little tiresome but not because it's modern content specifically but rather the rate they release these routes. Some variety between releases would be nice, such as Modern > BR Diesel route > Modern > Steam and so on. JT's Blackpool route was a very welcome change of pace and is my favourite route in the game right now because of it's high quality. My main issue with TSW steam is that they picked too large of a route to start with. They should've started much smaller scale, a GWR Pannier tank engine on a rural branch line with some coaches, a few wagons and a GWR Toad brake van. Get that out, nail down the physics and gameplay on this smaller route and then branch out to a slightly larger GWR project, layering in the content from the first route, and build things up that way. Eventually you get a nice collection of GWR stock built up and then you bring it altogether for a TSW version of Riviera in the 50's. GWR was just my personal choice, you could change it to another of the big four or BR even. Something that has crossed my mind a few times is if steam physics are proving too much for DTG, why not ask one of the third party devs to assist development of core steam physics. They bought the 8F and Jubilee from Bossman Games, I always wondered why they didn't get them on board for development? Their steam locomotives for TS Classic are great fun to drive!
But they never defend themselves anyway. Countless threads where people are asking legitimate questions about products they have paid for, fixes, promised content not delivered and what we get in return is stone cold silence. Ive been vocal in the past, but it never gets us anywhere and you can't deny we have been royally let down. As a company, their practices are truly awful. As others have said, where is manual firing? Blood and custard coaches? Improved physics? The list is endless, not just for steam either. Genuinely, if I could refund every penny I've every spent on TSW, I would. Not because I don't love trains, not because I don't enjoy playing it, but purely based on DTGs actions and the flood of broken promises
I started the thread to abstract the statement from the other thread as it is quite important that it is brought out in the open and given some prominence. There is plenty of discussion about various aspects of TSW and DTG's business going on in other threads so are you saying everyone should just refrain from criticism because they chose to take the entire Xmas/New Year period off. Son, they're a business, not a bunch of part timers doing this for charity. "Sportsmanship" as you put it, doesn't enter into the equation. They sold us SoS, PFR and indeed Flying Scotsman to us with considerable fanfare and I for one would like to know whether what was said on Discord has any veracity or was just hot air from a disgruntled employee. Quite happy to wait for the answer (if we even get one), but the evidence we can see is that sorting out steam traction issues in TSW is at best on the backburner.
