Enough Is Enough!!!

But not buying shares won't help your interest in development of TSW and TSC.

Also, when the Focus deal was made I was being positive about it, at that time it looked as if DTG now had more resources.

As soon as Focus' shares are doing well and this manifests itself in DTG being able to produce polished and well tested DLC, be sure I will discuss that. But I don't see any indication of that now. Still basic functions like passenger boarding and PZB are not working correctly after all these years of development.

Of course you're free to voice your opinion, but should also give others with a different view the opportunity to freely discuss the matter. Nobody here has an agenda, we're not selling you books on how to protect your money because a crash is coming, we're not that type of crash prophecy persona.

We're all DTG customers, and I've spent a little fortune on their games, support them in troubleshooting and give credit where credit is due. But discussing the other side is also necessary. The world is like Calidore266 's avatar.

At the moment, I'm sick of watching the news, just to protect my sanity. But I would not forbid them, I just don't watch them. My Island of Peace is the railway.

 

DTG staff don't live and work in isolation. Being human they will be already discussing and speculating about Focus and what it might mean for them. They will have the advantage of further internal information, both formal and informal. If it contradicts what's being discussed here they'll probably ignore all this as player tittle-tattle. If it aligns with this they will already be concerned, irrespective of what we say.

Personally, I think that Focus will sort themselves out. But if they don't, TSC is a mature product that does 95% of what I want and will keep me entertained for decades. TSW is more problematic, as it's not yet a finished item, and it's got the potential to go the way of Flight Sim World. Anyone remember that?

 

There is only so long you can keep over promising and under delivering, I've gone from buying all DLC sight unseen to buying absolutely nothing, simply because I was fed up with being told "we'll do better", "this will be fixed", it's been a debacle for far too long, the release of a whole new version of the game complete with the same old issues and problems was the final nail in the coffin for me.
I personally don't care if DTG survive or not, I'd like then to turn it around and produce a quality product, but I think the rot runs way too deep, but people lose their jobs every day, life is a bit of a LOVE like that, but if they do, it will solely be down to how the company has been so poorly managed to so long.

 

Flight Sim World failed, because the flight sim community is not as forgiving as the railsimmers. They expect quality and true to life simulation of systems, which other devs were able to supply.

 

Hear, hear!

 

There was also the little problem of Microsoft and licensing…. Let’s not forget that Flight Sim World (which was working with the FSX code under license) was cancelled rather abruptly and then Microsoft announced Flightsim 2020.

And with respect to stock prices, I have found the stock market is more a measure of group physiologically response rather than sound financial information. In fact day trading is more predicting the group response to stimulus rather than the underlying financial status of the stimulus. Though I wish I had a dollar for every time someone in these forums have predicted DTG’s demise .

 

Quite.....their demise and that of RSC have often been predicted since the early days of Rail Simulator.

 

Never dismiss the capacity of some people to continue to reward mediocrity.

 

Nobody's made predictions. All I said is if you're convinced everything's fine you should invest.

I know how the stock market reacts to rumours, but that's not the point. It is as it is.

Again, if your debts are higher than your capital, you have a problem. That's all. Action is needed. If you sit there and ignore this you're not a good manager.

 

While that's true, nobody has demonstrated that that is the case with Focus. Market cap simply is the number of shares in circulation multiplied by market price- which means little to the firm itself. What Focus' liquid and capital assets are we don't know.
On a similar note, buying Focus shares won't "help" DTG, since Focus don't get the money.

 

That's correct, as we're trading Focus shares on the secondary market. Thanks for reminding.
Still raising your market capital puts you in a much better position for taking loans - which Focus need.

And all that's happened recently points to things not going right. Explain to me why TSW2 is back on sale - a long delisted game. Why the unfinished TSW4 was released prematurely one year too early as share prices were going down already. Because cash is needed immediately to compensate for Atlas Fallen. If Warhammer fails, then there will be a problem.

So of course, this is speculation, and there's nothing wrong with it. I'm not worried at all, because it's not my company.

All I want is quality from DTG, and to not rip people off with badly created and untested patches and DLC, and letting people hope for fixes after the money's there.

 

Once the money has come in from the IPO, investors/stock markets are often a noose around the neck of most companies.

 

Anyway the risk of being bought out is high when your stock and market capital is on a low. But not if you're in debt and don't present a good strategy.

So back to DTG. The dangerous circle must be stopped. Produce quality and attract more customers. Everything else is rubbish.

And to all those being opposed to this thread. Visit the Troubleshooting subforum, and tell people reporting their bugs (of course there's also some false flags) that everything's fine and to stop complaining.

 

No one has said everything is fine and to stop complaining, not that I have seen, so that is a disingenuous statement. I have complained myself numerous times and haven't purchased the recent German route because it has flaws.

 

You've got muddled up again: market capitalisation = stock price * number of shares in circulation. Also, the market capitalisation is likely to be lower if you've got high debt and poor strategy, so you are actually more of a takeover target in that situation (asset stripping, restructuring, etc.). And debt in itself is not a bad thing because companies have to speculate to accumulate.

You sound like a small-scale activist investor. They tend to be mostly clueless about how to run a company, although I'm not necessarily suggesting that's true in your case.

 

I almost forgot that Focus has nearly 100 million euros in debt. That is not good at all.

I do agree with everything you said

 

I don't want to discuss forum members or myself, this comment is purely from a gamer's perspective. I'm honestly not worried about Focus or DTG, as they are not worried about you or me - and I'll not run out of stuff to play in any case. I want quality for the high price DLC they offer.

 

The truly "dramatic" thing is that no DTG administrator has even thought of closing this discussion yet.

 

Why should they? It's all within the forum rules, except for a few emotional posts.

If you go back a few years and read some older discussions, there was even less censoring of comments, Sam used to explain why he wasn't agreeing on points made instead of removing posts.

There's a lot of other real junk threads in here.

 

I think people should stop worrying about Focus' and DTG's financial situation.

DTG have clearly found a business plan that works well for them, even if it doesn't always work well for us players in terms of product quality.

Whatever happens, there will always be somebody producing train simulation and, besides, I myself have a TSC and TSW library that will last me many years without having to spend another dime, if it all stops tomorrow, which I think is about as likely as finding a pig on Mars.

( Oink! oink! ).

 

All any of us can really do is either buy DLC or not buy DLC and contribute to bug reporting and suggestions etc. Everything else we are just witnesses to. The forum and other places are good for passing information, speculation, help and advice between players and to DTG but not much we say about our perception of the state of the companies will alter anything DTG do.

A lot of people here have made their mind up about whether they still like to play TSW and buy DLC even if it isn’t perfect or to not buy anything until it has fewer issues or more desirable features, or indeed to never buy anything ever again. I don’t know why those who have said they are through with DTG and TSW are still posting on the forum unless they are trying to convince us we are wrong to still be enjoying ourselves with the game knowing it has some issues. That would be as fruitless an endeavour as me trying to convince them to buy every DLC.

Nobody really knows what’s round the corner. It could be more troubled times or something spectacularly good, or something in between. As it is a software product with a niche appeal it is never going to get huge amounts of investment and everything is going to be made on a small budget otherwise it would never be viable let alone profitable. Anybody who is taking time to post on the forum about TSW should really be hoping for it to get better and for DTG to thrive.

I don't personally believe TSW is in as bad a state as some people make out or that it has got particularly worse now than it has ever been. I don’t remember a time on the forum when we weren’t up in arms about the state of the game. It’s always had its fair share of catastrophes along the way and issues with communication from DTG. It also has always had good stuff too, which is why it is still quite popular with a lot of people.

 

Absolutely this. There's routes in TSC I have barely taken the wrapping off or for that matter in TSW where I've only done a handful of the available runs. That's before titles like SimRail or the old MSTS stuff in Open Rails.

 

I haven't seen any comments saying everything is fine -- but there are many threads of the sky is falling... the sky is falling .. whoa to me -- all very dramatic.

There are bugs, there are routes where the decisions made by the developers do not match everyones expectations - and many where people have provided constructive critcism and others where they have taking their own time and skills to provide mods to improve what they feel is lacking. Then of course there are plenty thread of the doomsayers and those that make personal attacks against the developers and the company itself -- it is the latter group that I ignore.

Of course - this is the same as about every forum for any game simulation and one soon learns not to get wrapped around the axle over any of it.

 

I actually bought TSW4 to solve their troubles, lol. I was a bit worse for wear and bought it by mistake and had every intention of refunding it (Still haven't played it after 3 days) but looking at this thread I'll let it slide from the goodness of me heart, hahaha.

I'd love to ask DTG if selling out to focus has put them in a vulnerable position. Say Focus' debt put them on the spot and they had to sell some assets, would DTG be a victim of that? Would DTG be better off being independent? I don't see us, the customers, being better off one way or the other just wondered.

I also don't care much about DTG but I don't want them to go out of business either. If DTG started giving more what the customers want then I'm sure they will survive (cue song) and maybe customers caring more but turning out stuff which is below par, no patches or not what people want will not help things or am I wrong?

 

Of course there's all kinds of people on the forums.

But this is a dedicated thread for people that are dissatisfied and fed up with DTG for various valid reasons, I just don't think it's about discussing forum members themselves or complaining about their attitudes. Time and time again people show up here to criticise the posters - that's what I don't find appropriate. Discuss the matter, not the people.

Still the case is simple. Stock was falling steadily to the point where the shares were lower than the initial IPO share price, combined with high debts that are issued in the official statements from Focus. No DTG DLC for TSC since 2022. So questions can be asked.

Everyone has the right to discuss matters as long as they stick to the forum rules.

Personally, I do find the endless route speculation or favourite DLC threads silly. But I just don't engage there, as it's not me to judge what people should talk about or what their stance is. This is annoying me, the Thought Police in here.

 

But what purpose do your restatements of what are no more than opinions based on cherry-picked, often shaky, facts actually serve? Don't get me wrong, you are entitled to your opinions, but that's all they are, and I genuinely don't understand what purpose is being served by you talking down a company as a means to get whatever it is you want from it. I get the irony, I'm engaging with you, so I'm just as 'bad' as you, but it's hard to comprehend what a lot of the stuff in this thread is about other than stoking up sometimes wild conspiracy theories. No wait, I forgot that this is on the internet!

 

Sorry to butt in, but wild conspiracies? People on these forums debate whether ballast is the wrong colour or not but when someone raises questions about the parent company being in debt, that is a conspiracy? You could argue that we deserve answers no?

If there was no basis for this concern DTG could easily come out and say there is no truth to this and back that statement up with a fact or two but they don't? Oh look another conspiracy!!!

 

But Focus being in debt isn't a conspiracy. I did do some research and they are indeed in debt.

 

While I don't think TSW4 (without working editor or consist manager) to be worthy of a paid "new version" tag, since I got it anyway I have found it still isn't a bad incremental improvement over 3. In particular I have come to really like the new HUD.

Downside: No TSW3 mods work with it, and not many have been made or rem,ade for 4 yet.

 

You seem to see things that aren't there

What conspiracy please? Do you know what conspiracy means?

Fact: Bad quality, filler DLC, Atlas Fallen not the expected success, shares were falling, debts were rising. No conspiracy, but bad management. Nobody talked of an evil group of conspirators behind the scenes manipulating the market. The easiest explanation is often the correct one. Don't assume evil when stupidity explains it better . I can speculate and think as I like to, it's others making the decisions to change the board eventually if the situation doesn't change for the better.

What purpose is a general discussion forum, or roadmap? Why do people want to know what route's next? Do they need to be mentally prepared? Why do I care what other's favourite loco is?

A lot of questions

But to answer one: people are constantly asking how this discussion started, so I felt the need to explain it again instead of saying "read the thread".

No predictions, but seeing when things are out of balance. Even a DTG ambassador did and recommended not expecting big things from DTG in the near future, route reworks and gameplay packs instead of costly projects, because the numbers Focus published only mean one thing, cutting costs and be more profitable than before.

I never said they were going bankrupt, only saying the risk is the highest it ever was - that's a difference. Some of you are making a drama out of his, not me. Just analyzing a bit.

 

Yes, why? Because no one wants to do it anymore when they know that the mod with a new TSW version is for the trash can.

DTG repeatedly destroys the already small TSW modding scene with such actions. They're just not interested. So you can assume that with a TSW5 all mods will no longer work.

This is very very frustrating.

 

That's hilarious, I'll give you that!

 

And there's one fundamental flaw that DTG doesn't (or refuses) to understand in the simming community. Mods mods mods. Any self respecting simulation on PC (and increasingly on consoles to a limited degree) allow for mods to plug into the base game to either add content or improvement. But going back to FSW and now TSW DTG has taken the approach of a closed system where they are the gatekeepers. A simulator's lifeblood and ongoing engagement often comes from community mods. Look at flight simulators for as long as we can remember and also farming simulator and the truck simulators. When you close off a system, you basically shut out creativity and drive away a potential customer base. I mean they could even look at their own TSC and how long it's been going on with an excellent user mod community. If they had built TSC themselves I highly doubt you'd see a Steam Workshop attached to the game. Their bizarre attempt at greed has backfired once, so why double down on it with a much more niche genre?

 

Is it really the case that TSW2 has gone back on sale? It doesn’t matter how you try and dress it up, if true that is very odd indeed.

Edited to say it is indeed available to buy on Steam again. That is just downright bizarre.

 

It is not bizarre, it is obvious that Focus are in need of cash. The stock graph and business report don't lie.

I know people only take as fact what they want to believe, no matter how much evidence is provided. I remember how those that predicted the exact TSW4 release date got bashed last year. (Baseless rumours etc...)

 

Amen, totally agree with that. I perhaps don’t place as much value on stock price as you (I don’t know, perhaps I do), particularly over the short term, but looking at it objectively TSW2 going back on sale isn’t exactly the move a financially sound company would make, particularly after it has been delisted for such a long time. The brand confusion in itself would be reason enough to let sleeping dogs lie. It’s not like Rockstar putting out remastered versions of previous GTA games. I’m not necessarily concerned about DTG (they are a bit like the last man standing in a bar fight) but some of the management decisions are more than a bit concerning.

One thing is for sure. Promising the world then consistently selling a below-par product for a high price is not the recipe for a sound business. TSC has only lasted as long as it has because of 3rd parties and modding. Route building aside, much of DTG’s content for TSC is downright awful and had the game been relying on that alone for longevity I believe it would have been a different story. Having dipped my toes into it I would have stayed the hell away, that’s for sure.

DTG have effectively closed TSW off and I believe it’s beginning to show. FSW didn’t die because of MSFS, it died because FSW wasn’t being supported by 3rd party devs, the life-blood of flight sims, due to the way DTG had set it up. Have a look on YouTube, there are interviews with some of the biggest of those devs saying exactly that. There are virtually no other sim games out there that operate to this model, where the publisher takes a significant cut of every last bit of content and where all content has to be sold through their own storefronts. The only two I can think of are TSW and FSW.

 

This is exactly my point. People are constantly asking why the quality is so bad, why things get released untested with bugs surfacing after 5 minutes of playing, why routes are so short - it's all an economical matter. (Father Jack would say "That would be an ecumenical matter!" though )

Though DTG's routes are not as bad as you portray them. GEML, Cologne-Koblenz or PDL for example still are top notch routes, especially with AP replacing the old 3D "Balloon" trees. I'm still rediscovering and acknowledging the work DTG put into many of their routes. I'd say they haven't reached that level of detail yet in TSW, due to the more complex editor and harsher economical conditions.

Not blaming the individual devs at DTG - they just get impossible deadlines dictated. TSW4? Not ready boss! Release it anyway, and promise some features so we get preorder cash. Deliver later or not at all. We'll adjust our plans accordingly. Who said we can't make a few bucks still with TSW3 and 2? It's modder's heaven, so people will still buy it. Put them back on sale!

Disclaimer: This is pure speculation. I am not proving or predicting anything. Just analyzing and extrapolating.

 

Have a look at this post I made back in February to see why FSW died a death.

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...hould-be-obvious-now.64959/page-2#post-606933

…or have a read of this. Any of it sound familiar?

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/the-flare-path-from-early-access-to-early-grave

If you never read another thing I post, have a read of that rockpapershotgun article. There are always two sides to any story, but my own opinion formed from playing these games over a number of years is that far from being blameless in this, the poor company giving the niche few a train sim that can only be as good as it is because there isn’t enough available revenue to make it any better, is actually the crux of the problem.

The problem isn’t that train simulation is niche. The problem is that DTG want absolute control over a genre that relies on third-party pay and freeware and are stifling their flagship product as a result. In my opinion, the fact that Armstrong Powerhouse have still not gone anywhere near TSW (selling original sound recordings for mixing and use by someone else does not constitute going anywhere the game) speaks volumes and should be worrying for the people in charge. History is simply repeating itself.

 

... and the fact that GWR refuse to grant a license is also worrying. They probably don't feel being represented well, maybe it's only the non working HST wipers that put them off (speculation).

You're right, with TSW DTG wanted to change their path to get more revenue by being the sole publisher of DLC.

And as I said before, it's not by accident the editor was released without a cooking feature, because they have DRM problems to solve first and make sure no IP gets recooked. Which also is the reason mods don't work as before and the startup times have increased massively due to pak checking.

So the fear of piracy makes the game worse, and actually fuels piracy imho.

Look at TSC, there's an infinite supply of routes if you check the regional community freeware scene. Can't play all that in one life. And many are just making every DLC appear pale in comparison, for example Rodachtalbahn, Project Freiberg (Sachs) or Thüringer Wald, because the freeware creators have no deadlines and can develop a route over many years.

 

Funnily enough, the associated DLC can also be accessed and purchased again. The reviews are also available again.

So there is currently
TSW2
TSW3
and TSW4
as well as the DLC for each version.

DTG is certainly not doing this out of benevolence, but because they want to squeeze out even more money.

 

I see it that way too. They just wanted to "pacify" people, but they knew full well that good things would come about relatively quickly that would make them look old. That's why the editor is just for tinkering with yourself, end. A sharing function is knowingly not available and, in my opinion, will not be. DTG's silence also says a lot about this.

Once again people were taken for a ride. I think it's a shame that after over 430 hours of playing TSW3+4, I've now become skeptical about DTG. But they always manage to disappoint people.

 

... and again make brilliant stuff, only to be ruined by unnecessary bugs and illegible overbright displays, horrible non-standardised lighting. And running empty passengerless trains, though an algorithm to add passengers in an array of available seats (Seat number#, boolean "Occupied" value), define a change rate at stations, is dead simple. Of course only if you're still able to read your own code after all these years of workarounds, patching instead of fixing, and staff fluctuation.

Passengers in SimRail open the doors, walk to their seats and sit down. No spawning/despawning. Stuff works right from the beginning.

 

I’m in complete agreement with this, no way is the lack of cooking an oversight.

Imagine if people were able to create content outwith the DTG sphere and sell it via third party websites, just like every other sim game going (including TSC), such that DTG couldn’t take their cut? I believe that this is the real reason addon-breaker is on the PC because they want to prevent that happening at all costs, and why I believe this inability to cook content made within the editor is 100% deliberate. I also believe the only reason the editor appeared at all is because TSW4 was (and still is) so light on actual content something was needed to justify calling it a new game. Isn’t it amazing how all the ‘we can’t release an editor because licensing and Epic’ stuff fell by the wayside so conveniently at this exact moment in time?

 

I didn’t portray the routes as bad. The DTG route building in TSC has always been it’s strongest point (although not always from release, we all remember the WCMLS launch debacle whereas now it’s a very good route) but the rolling stock, particularly the trains you drive are almost all universally awful. Featureless, poorly textured, poor sounds, pantomime physics, poor lighting, bugged to high heaven and all the other bad things. AP literally built a business by simply fixing and making good what should have been to that standard in the first place.

DTG’s rolling stock content for TSW is different league to the absolute trash they put out for TSC. In fact, it’s one of TSW strongest plus points IMHO. Had the poor standards been continued from TSC and in to TSW the latter would be toast by now, guaranteed.

 

DLCs for each version, except for TSW2020, at least on PC were available for purchase for the time the games weren't in the store (and for DLCs for TSW2020 you could get keys from authorized resellers). That's how people were able to still get the previous DLCs they didn't have while not owning the newest edition of the game.

 

Of course, the resellers bought their keys in masses when the game was officially distributed. That keyseller market says nothing, as it's not in DTG's hands, they have already got the money for those keys.

 

Reppo has joined TSW btw it seems, showing up in the PC Editor subforum. His TSC models were always of superb quality, I mean look at the E60 or GP60 - or my absolute favourite the New Haven E33 (use the manual pump to raise the panto, working circuit breakers, extremely good weathered textures), they already had the same quality modelling and texturewise as TSW stock (in some cases, even more detailed underframes and bogies), just no UE engine to light and shade them.

 

This wasn't what I was meant to say. I meant to said that DLCs for TSW2 & TSW3 were available to purchase all the time on Steam store when their base games weren't, as the person I was replaying to discovered that the DLCs reappeared in the store. Only TSW2020 DLCs were removed from the sale for a short moment, but then reappeared again (you can still buy them for example if you don't have locos for the old NEC).

 

Also they announced and released the official editor not long after the unofficial editor started making progress and people began working on stuff in it. What a coincidence!

 

Ah ok. That's because they couldn't lock out players that hadn't upgraded from still purchasing DLC for their version. I was still buying TSW2020 DLC on Steam when TSW3 was out.