Steam - A Realistic Challenge

This will be an interesting one! I haven't actually redownloaded BCC into TSW4 so I'll have to do that when I get home tonight.

 

I’m with you on modern MUs, but the 323 has a bit more character to it than most. None the less I must admit most of my time on the route has been spent driving 101s and other older stock. Trying to keep time with a 101 on a 323 schedule is an interesting (and realistic) challenge. The route itself is pretty steeply graded throughout with endless changes to line speed, signals and stations - it really keeps you on your toes.

 

Great, I’m looking forward to reading about your efforts, Matt.

 

I was in the mood for steam today. Now, I’ve been playing with this idea for some time, but the recent successes on MML gave me the confidence that it is time. I wanted to revisit the start of our journey with all of the experience we’ve accumulated since. Join me on The Manxman led by 45556 Nova Scotia on a cold January afternoon.

I made the run in almost spot on 45 minutes. The top speed reached was 78mph just after Acton Bridge, the climb to Sutton Weaver never dropped below 42mph. I didn’t see any landmarks to identify Sutton Weaver, which is why I gave an approximate time and the slowest speed of the climb in my log.

Let me talk you through. The run up to Acton Bridge was uneventful. I completely trusted 29 reg, 19 cut off, which got me all the way to 78mph with 10 mk1s just before Weaver Jn with 200psi in the kettle.

I forgot that Weaver drops down to 50, not just 60, which is why I hit the points slightly too fast. This probably gave me some advantage for the climb after. However, since I was only ~5mph too fast and didn’t drive optimally later on, I don’t think it gave me much of an advantage. That’s not even mentioning that our logs have shown that steam drivers sometimes take a few liberties with speed restrictions, so all’s well in my book

The first half of the climb, I stuck to 29 reg, 19 cut off before switching to 60 reg, 17 cut off. Giving the geography of the route, I was willing to sacrifice some pressure here and the latter setting helped keep the speed up. I probably could have pushed a bit harder here, but I did run the boiler down to ~175psi and I didn’t want to risk the old girl running out of breath.

On the downhill bit, I drifted with some steam. Not that impacts TSW, but for those curious, I had the reg at ~8 and the cut off at 55. Runcorn and Ditton were where I was not careful enough. My speed dropped to 53 in Runcorn for the 55 restriction and my braking was too hard coming into Ditton, which put me down to 51. That would hamper the rest of my run.

The small climbs to Speke Jn were mostly done with 60 reg, 17 cut off. As soon as I was in a small flat bit, I always switched to 29 reg, 19 cut off for its excellent performance and pressure regeneration. For the long-ish climb to Edge Hill after Speke Jn, I also used 19 cut off with higher reg settings like 40, 50, and 60 to experiment. Giving that leg of the run was the last bit actually needing steam, I was more happy to experiment. It mostly seemed to waste steam compared to 60 reg, 17 cut off, but more experimantation is required to make sure. In the end, I eased off the reg just before Sefton Park to gently slow down to the 40 restriction coming into Edge Hill without braking. I hit the further 20 restriction with no problem and came to a gentle halt in Liverpool 45 minutes after setting off.

Overall, I’m very happy with the run. While Weaver Jn wasn’t perfect, it’s the braking for Ditton that gets me. Had I hit Ditton closer to 55, the entire rest of my run would have been able to maintain higher speeds. Be that as it may, it probably does offset my slight advantage at Weaver Jn, so I reckon it all worked out for the best. 45 minutes is not a bad run, I think

My previous run was 50 minutes, so it’s certainly an improvement

And with that, let’s have a look at some pictures

Spoiler: The Manxman led by 45556 Nova Scotia

Spotters observe 45556 Nova Scotia in Crewe ready to depart with The Manxman.


Workers in Crewe take note of 45556 Nova Scotia making her way out of the station


Shunters on break get treated by 45556 Nova Scotia unleashing her full power on the mainline.


45556 Nova Scotia elegently leans into the curve of Speke Jn.


After a tiring run, 45556 Nova Scotia slowly pulls into Liverpool Lime Street.

 

That's a great run. 45 mins Crewe - Liverpool is our fastest time so far on this thread, I think. From what I can see, Matt had the previous best at 47 mins. 78mph before Acton Bridge and a minimum of 42mph to Sutton Weaver are both extremely impressive.

Perhaps that's partly a reflection of the experience gained with the loco since we started all this, 5 months ago.

Great pictures. I particularly love the one at Speke Jn. The super-elevation of the curve really makes the shot, and you can see from the exhaust that it's working hard. You can almost hear the Jubilee 'roar'.

 

You have knocked that one out the park, though as James says above that beats my previous record by two minutes, so perhaps after I give Brum run a go I'll have to see if I can go back and work out how to get two minutes on the run, perhaps even two and a half!

 

lcyrrjp, matt#4801, thanks
Really, it was this:

that I was going for. Using all of the things we shared and taught each other, I wanted to make a run that is a bit less ‘my’ run and more ‘our’ run in the sense that it wouldn’t have been possible without the contributions of each and every one here

Good luck! Oh, and just you wait, I’ve got another thing cooking for you

 

Thanks mate. Haha, I assume it's not a Victoria sponge, or any other sort of food in fact!

 

As promised, matt#4801

We’re coming to you today with a new challenge and a challenge it is

Leeds - Stalybridge non-stop with a Jubilee and 11 coaches.

Some backstory.
The run is based on this log:



It’s a Jubilee railtour over NTP with 11 coaches, which is marked on the website as a Jubilee highlight. We thought we were struggling before with 10 coaches but this run packs even more of a punch.

Some notes on the log: You will notice that our driver had to slow down to 5mph in Morley and encountered restricting signals just before the climb to Huddersfield. I suggest you ignore these and run according to what you see in-game. Trust me when I say, you will need the bit of time you can make up here (more below in my report).

Also, the log suggests to me that Huddersfield only had a 25mph speed limit at the time of the run instead of TSW’s 15mph (well, that or our driver was taking a very liberal approach to speed limits). I suggest you stick to the log and keep to a 25mph limit through Huddersfield simply for comparison’s sake. Last but not least, our driver was above the 60mph speed limit in TSW just before Stalybridge, which I adhered to.

Now for the set-up. As you’ll have noticed, our railtour didn’t stop in Stalybridge. Given that everyone (including the driver in our log) has to slow down to 15mph there anyway, it’s really no trouble and stopping here doesn’t impact our comparison. To start, spawn a Jubilee + 10 mk1s consist in Leeds and spawn another consist containing mk1s behind your first. Delete all but one mk1 of the last consists and couple up to get a 11 coach consist. I put another first class coach from the Jubilee + 5 mk1s at the end of my train. Set a path to Stalybridge, which conveniently can take an 11 coach train - lucky us . Place a ‘go via’ on the fast lines just after Ravensthorpe to ensure you end up on the correct line.

That pretty much covers the challenge and set-up. I’ll share tales from my own attempt and my thoughts on the log below.

 

Onto my run. Please observe that x/y will denote regulator/cut-off in my post for ease of reading and writing. I’ll start straight away with my performance log:

Let me talk you through. Right off the bat, I struggled to find my footing with the heavy load up to Morley. Because of the slow speeds, I had to use more steam than I was used to. My go-to 29/19 wasn’t cutting it on these climbs, which is why I used 59/19 here. This worked insofar that I got up the hill, but my 24mph are nowhere near the logs 35mph before Morley.

The run down to Ravensthorpe got me some breathing room after the difficult climb. Because I wasn’t bound by the 5mph restriction in Morley, I got a headstart and was quicker than the log through Batley. However, it took me 19 minutes to get there vs the log’s 17/18. Already a minute late despite the advantage.

However, I made up some time at Ravensthorpe and was only half a minute behind the log at the junction. I did over-brake though all the way down to 38mph (speed limits is 45mph). We’ll ignore the log’s signal checks for a minute while I continued on. Recovering from my mistake, I only made it up to 45mph top speed on the mainline here. It was only the steep downhill bit before the climb to Huddersfield that got me up to 50mph.

The climb to Huddersfield felt like a losing battle. I ended up using 40/17 as means to balance steam consumption and slowing down. The log kept steady on 40mph here, which I initially matched but my speed steeply declined just before Huddersfield. I got there about a minute before the log, which almost synchronises our times.

The came the the big one, the climb Huddersfield-Marsden, which was a bit of a wreck. The old girl struggled hard to get 11 coaches up the brutal climb. I tried various configurations in a desperate effort to keep speed up. In the end, I settled on 60/22, which kept me climbing at 19/20mph at a kettle pressure of around 160-170psi. I was nowhere even remotely near to the performance of the log, in which the Jubilee not only kept her speed up, but even accelerated up to 33mph. This meant that I went from a minute early to 5 minutes late. I hit Standedge Tunnel at 26mph compared to the log’s 36/40.

The rest of the run - being downhill - was relatively uneventful. I once more braked a little too hard down to 57mph in the 60mph zone and hit the border of the Stalybridge platform at around 4 minutes late.

What a run. We discussed in this thread that even 10 mk1s seemed a bit much for the Jubilee on NTP, so taking 11 coaches on these climbs was intense. However, our log paints an interesting, if not unsurprising, picture. The Jubilee (at least in my hands), was underperforming noticeably in every climb: 10mph slower to Morley, 13mph slower to Marsden, only the climb to Huddersfield was similar, if it weren’t for the fact that I started the climb from 50mph and the log from 10mph. I reckon this lends credence to our talk concerning my 8F tests, which indicated that our method of hampering the performance of the locos was robbing them too much of oxygen at slow speeds.

Still, it is a fun challenge to attempt matching the log at least as closely as we can and the run certainly was a lot of fun. On the site we take the logs from, it is said that Jubilees were tricky beasts, which meant that they either performed brilliantly or rotten. Picture TSW’s as rotten then, if you need

I hope you’ll have a go as well. I’m really curious what performance you can coax out of the Jubilee. This run really pushes her to the edge (at least in TSW). Good luck!

You already know what comes next.

Spoiler

Making my way to the railtour I’ll be driving.



45596 Bahamas is ready and raring to go.



We don’t go to Ravensthorpe.



She’s chuffing hard after the climb to Huddersfield and it’s only going to get worse…



Flying down to Greenfield in an attempt to make up time.

 

Thanks, Lamplight. A really interesting challenge, and a great first attempt. With 4 minutes to find, I think this is going to be a tough one.

I had a look back at our earlier efforts with 10 mk1s, and we were passing Morley in twelve-and-a-half minutes (compared to your 14 mins), and Driver a.paice reported 29mph there on one of his runs (compared to your 24mph). The 1 extra coach shouldn’t make as big a difference as that, which suggests your loco’s struggles on the early part of the climb cost you quite heavily - perhaps a minute to be had there?

Beyond that, I suspect it’s the climb after Huddersfield which is going to be crucial. Not having a Huddersfield call is a real handicap - getting to Huddersfield in decent time while still maintaining high boiler pressure for the climb beyond is going to be a real balancing act.

As you rightly point out, in a sense this is a run which highlights where the approach we’ve adopted leaves our Jubilee underpowered, but on the other hand we’re comparing ourselves with a run which was hand-picked as an example of excellent performance from a Jubilee. Many Jubilee runs are far less impressive, as demonstrated by the difference between the two logs on Leicester-Derby, so we shouldn’t be too disappointed if we can’t match the very best of Jubilee performance in all circumstances. Let’s see how close we can get!

 

Agreed on all points

My climb to Morley felt particularly sloppy. I’ll admit that I underestimated the climb and it took me a bit to change my approach, which wasted precious time. A more aggressive approach immediately outside of Leeds should save some time.

To share some more of my experiences regarding Huddersfield, I agree that not having a spot to regenerate is tough. I did manage to start with an ok kettle pressure though. When I was about a mile, maybe a bit less, outside of Huddersfield, it became clear that holding 40mph was just not possible, so I switched down to 40/17 (I think I was using 60/17 before). This brought me down to about 27mph when the 40 restriction starts (not ideal, but not terrible given our 25 restriction a bit after) and most importantly already back up to 200psi in the kettle. Obviously, I’d rather start with a full 225, but could be worse.

I think there might be another minute in the Marsden climb if we can get a better reg/cut-off combination (and enough pressure in Huddersfield). I think I might have wasted some steam trying to match a performance that can’t be matched (if any of you get her to 33 on that climb, I’d be amazed ). Maybe we can at least keep the 25mph (or thereabouts) of Huddersfield up instead.

And as a bit of an advantage I didn’t make use of: our log indicates our driver going faster than 60 just before Stalybridge. I don’t know if there was speeding involved or the speed limits were different, but that’s also time to be had - not much, but every bit helps.

That would bring us to a 2 minute gain if all of that holds true, which would make us just two minutes behind the log. Honestly, that would be really good, I reckon. As you said, we’re comparing our imperfect Jubilee to what was noted as a particularly impressive Jubilee run.

Anyways, I’ll try to get a second run in over the next couple of days. Best of luck to you all, I’m looking forward to seeing what you make of this run

 

I had some time on my hands today and decided I should go for my second attempt. It's not much better, but still better. I hope you can learn something from it for your attempts



For our convenience, I typed it all up properly this time instead of doing it on my phone The last column already compares my two attempts. As you can see, it's a lot of ups and downs...

First off, I followed my own advice and was a lot more aggressive right outside of Leeds. I took inspiration from some of the settings a.paice described using and used quite a bit of 40/26. When the strain on the boiler got too much, I dialled it down to 40/22. 40/22 I've found to be a particularly powerful setting. It burns steam quickly but accelerates you much quicker than the 19 or 17 cut-off combos. Useful for gaining a lot of speed quickly. This approach meant that I topped out my speed here at 27mph before passing Morley with only 22. Wait, only 22?

I ran into a problem on the way. From what I can see, the climb to Marley is split in two. First half is 0.6% (if memory serves) and the second half 0.8%. The aggressive approach worked for the first half but I had sacrificed too much pressure to keep up the speed on the second half. I'm certain this can be done better than I did. Even with that caveat, I was 15 seconds quicker, so there's still a lot of promise in this climb.

As you can see though, I lost pretty much all of the time I made up on the way to Batley. As you may have guessed, I was in dire need of pressure, so I could not accelerate as quickly in the tunnel as I could on my first attempt. I made up some of that time again on the way to Ravensthorpe by being more precise with my braking and showing the old girl no mercy. I was flogging her with 22 cut-off whenever I could to get up to speed as soon as possible.

My better attention to braking paid off once we hit the fast line out of Ravensthorpe. Instead of slowing down all the way to 38mph, I kept to the 45 restriction precisely. This meant I could actually get up to 50mph with my own power on the gentle gradients of the fast line. I used the necessary easing off when we split off for the climb to Huddersfield to regenerate my pressure with some comfortable 30 seconds lead again over my first run.

I also improved a bit on the climb to Huddersfield. Initially, I used 40/22 again to keep the speed up as much as I could while keeping a careful eye on my kettle pressure. I can't remember when exactly, but somewhere around Deighton, I switched down to 40/19, which didn't keep the speed up nearly as well, but was much more conservative in its steam consumption (gave some really good sustained performance). As before, I switched down to 40/17 roughly when the yards around Huddersfield come into view to sacrifice speed for regenerating builder pressure in preparation for both the climb to come and the 25mph restriction. In the end, I got the boiler up to ~210psi and had a whopping 50 seconds lead on my first attempt in Huddersfield.

The climb to Marsden. What can I say, it's a beast of its own. I tried to pace myself in steam consumption thinking I might be able to preserve some of the 24mph I was doing for longer, but that didn't work. I stuck to 40/22 immediately and my speed dropped from 24 down to 19 relatively quickly. Having been too cautious, I had lost speed quicker than before and lost most of my lead when I reached Slaithewait. This was when I realised it just didn't work as I hoped and switched things around a bit. I tried 45/22 and 50/22 before settling into 60/22 again, which pushed my speed up slightly and I spent more time doing 20 again. Oddly enough, I gained some 10 seconds back on the way to Marsden. I don't know if pacing myself did have some positive effect at last or whether I was just lucky.

The rest of the run was - again - uneventful. I was flogging the old girl again as much as I could and improved my braking to get some seconds back. Also, as per our log, I did go all the way up to 68mph between Mossley and Stalybridge, which seems to have bought me almost ten seconds, amazingly. Finally, I finished the run with a lead of about 30 seconds.

All in all, an improvement, if only marginally. As you can see, some of the stuff I tried worked, other things not so much. What I believe my second run does show though, if you look at the individual time gains and how much I recaptured lost leads again in certain parts, is that an 'ideal' run definitely can still shave quite a bit off of my performance.

Spoiler: Last but not least...

Life on the railway never gets boring. You're preparing your 47 for regular service when you spot this on the station...


The railfans are eagerly watching 45721 'Impregnable' working hard as she pulls into Marsden. The crew is just happy she made it at all...

 

Great run, Lamplight, and stunning pictures as always. That second one passing Marsden is outstanding - I love the way the gentle winter sun catches the railheads.

As well as having a go at the run myself, I've also been typing numbers into a table, before I saw that you'd done the same! I hope you don't mind me posting my table too, as I've included both of our times as well as the original 1964 run for comparison.



As you can see, I've also noted regulator/cut-off positions where noted. I've put the real timings of the original 1964 run against a made-up 12:00:00 departure for easy comparison, and done the same with the schedule.

I had 45630 'Swaziland' and from the start worked on the principle of keeping boiler pressure high throughout the climbs. This meant a miserly 33% regulator and 21% cut-off as we began the climb out of Leeds, easing out to 44% regulator on the final stages. We passed through Morley at the same 24mph, saving most of the boiler pressure for acceleration through the tunnel, and a fast run down the other side. I then wasted much of the time gained by releasing the brake too late at Dewsbury, and passing though the station 6mph below the limit. This cost me time on to Ravensthorpe, where barely any braking was needed for the 45mph through the junction.

Despite the frustration, the downhill section had brought boiler pressure back up, and we were able to get up to 50mph fairly quickly through Mirfield, closing the regulator so as not to need to brake through the junction. By the time we began the climb we were up to 220psi, and I again aimed to maintain pressure rather than speed. This time I found a reduction to 18% cut-off was needed initially to stop pressure dropping below 200psi, opening up to 21% after Deighton. This meant speed dropped away gradually, down to 25mph by Huddersfield, but slightly easing back the regulator to avoid exceeding the line speed through the station allowed pressure to climb back up to 220 psi - on the cusp of the safety valves lifting - before the second half of the climb.

I used 37% regulator and 21% cut-off initially, and speed gradually dropped to 21mph. I opened up to 40% regulator, and that held speed there for the remainder of the climb, without losing boiler pressure. Only once we entered the tunnel did I open up regulator and cut-off, using every available pound of pressure to accelerate the heavy train as hard as I could on the level ground, and we were down to 120psi by the time we reached 45mph and I eased off to comply with the PSR after the tunnel.

After that, it was the usual fast run down the other side, a touch over the 60mph limit. It is perhaps fortunate that I didn't realise how close I was to achieving the schedule, as it would have made my messing up the braking for Stalybridge all the more infuriating. I was down to 8mph as we entered the 15mph restriction, and had to accelerate again to avoid losing more time into the station.

None the less, passing through the station (which, incidentally, I take to be roughly the mid-point of the platform) at 13:04:38 was only just outside of schedule. I definitely cost myself more than 38 seconds with my poor braking at Dewsbury and Stalybridge combined, so I think I can say with certainty that passing Stalybridge on time is possible. The difficulty, of course, is piecing it all together to achieve the perfect run.

One tip I don't think I've seen mentioned before is that reducing the small ejector to about 30% (rather than leaving it fully open) saves a small amount of steam, and is enough to keep the brakes off, providing boiler pressure is high. On the climbs I find it enables you to have a fraction more regulator or cut-off than is otherwise possible. You do have to remember to re-open it fully before braking, though, as if you leave it at 30% you'll struggle to release the brakes.

I can't touch you guys on the pictures, I'm afraid, but I've dropped one snap below none the less. Swaziland recovers at Stalybridge after her exertions.

 

Great run both and lovely screenshots, I should get my runs on NTP and BCC in tomorrow as I'll be off, though I have got a desk to build for the mrs first!

I did have a go trying to better my SoS run but I completely messed up my braking for the 55 at Ditton, thinking it were 25 for some reason so that were nothing ground braking, though I do feel my WCML sprint at the end were rather strong.

 

Wow, hats off, lcyrrjp, you blew me out of the water! Really, a more than impressive run. I find your cut-off usage fascinating and it makes sense that your pressure preserving approach was rewarded. You achieved the scheduled arrival time and were but a minute off our fantastic log.

I’ll definitely have another go at this while trying to implement your techniques into my repertoire. It sounds to me like you aimed not to drop below 200psi on the climbs, is that correct?

Also, thank you for making that table for us Your tables are much tidier than mine and having all of our logs in one is certainly making it easier to compare.

Great idea regarding the small ejector. Never thought about that. I think I speak for us all when I say that we need every advantage on this run. Many thanks!

As you said, putting it all together into a perfect run will be very difficult on this challenge. For now though, I’ll first try to get in the same ballpark as you

And don’t be so hard on yourself about your screenshots I really like the low angle you used. Makes the old girl look all majestic.

 

Thanks Lamplight. In terms of boiler pressure, I find for the long climbs the best place to have the pressure is above 210. (200 is good, but 210+ is great!)

When you look at our logs, our times before Huddersfield and after Greenfield are virtually identical. I made up all of the time on the climb from Huddersfield to Standedge, and the acceleration through the tunnel. On that climb I was on 21-22mph all the way up. You were on 19mph-20mph. It’s a small difference, but at such low speeds over long distances, it makes a huge difference in time. I had 210-220 PSI all the way, and I think that accounts for 1.5mph of the difference, with perhaps 0.5 mph due to the reduction in the small ejector.

At the start of a climb I ignore the speed and focus entirely on finding a cut-off/regulator combination which holds the boiler pressure close to the red line. If pressure dips in the first stage of the climb before I’m able to stabilise it, I use lower reg/cut-off to get it to rise. I find the speed then looks after itself.

Once I enter Standedge Tunnel, I completely reverse my approach, open up cut-off and regulator and give it everything. I won’t need the steam once over the other side (gravity does the work) so I use it all up in getting the speed up to 45mph as quickly as possible (bearing in mind the 45mph PSR at the exit of the tunnel).

My approach on the climb to Morley is similar, but I’m less aggressive once in the tunnel, as I know if I completely kill the boiler pressure, it won’t recover by the time we are through Dewsbury and need power again.

 

Good luck with the desk, Matt. I hope it proves a quick job, to leave time for the important stuff!

 

lcyrrjp, I've tried to learn from your techniques and I got a run that leaves me both extremely satisfied but also rather irritated. You'll see why If you'd like, feel free to add my table to yours for better comparability.



I think the arrival time in Stalybridge already betrays why I'm extremely satisfied. But let's start at the beginning.

I followed your descriptions outside of Leeds with 33/21 and 44/21. However, I've somehow managed to outperform all our previous climbs here by getting to Morley earlier with 25mph. I used 33/21 for the shallower climb and switched up immediately when the gradient increased. A brilliant start.

The downhill run to Ravensthorpe was uneventful with me keeping up the lead I worked for on the climb. I used a lot of 41/22 to gain speed quickly. Through painful means, I've confirmed that Ravnesthorpe is a critical juncture for this run. I misjudged my braking and got down to 43/42mph. This meant that I could never get up to 50mph on the fast line, which in turn hindered my climbing to Huddersfield. A domino effect.

I tried to use your techniques for the climb to Huddersfield, but I was just trying to salvage what I could since I thought my mess-up at Ravensthorpe had cost me the run. In the end, I went back to using more of 22 cut-off after Deighton. It didn't help that my boiler was only up to 200psi when I started the climb either. I got to Huddersfield and now lagged a few seconds behind you. This was the worst climb to Huddersfield I've had so far. With a combination of coasting and 40/17, I got the boiler pressure up to 220-225psi though, which was crucial.

This is the big one. The climb to Marsden. I have no idea how, but I had what felt like a perfect run here. I followed your technique to the letter: 220psi in the kettle, 37/21 until speed drops to 21mph, 40/21 afterwards. It worked as you described initially. But then, the track must have dipped a bit, I actually accelerated again to 22mph and kept that speed up all the way to Marsden with no problem (just using 40/21 with no alterations, kettle was somewhere between 220 and 225psi the whole way). At one point, when the gradients dipped down to 0.9% briefly, I even got up to 23mph for something like 10-20 seconds. With that, I arrived in Marsden with a comfortable lead I would have never expected.

For the tunnel afterwards, I didn't throw steam preservation completely out of the window. I used more of 41/22, which sort of levels out at 150-160psi. That got me all the way up 48mph before braking for the 45 restriction at the end. After that, I flogged her down again complying with the log's speeds between Mossley and Stalybridge (68mph top). I pulled into Stalybridge with a satisfying arrival time just slightly after the log and in time with the schedule. Time for a cup of tea.

Two things I'd like to bring attention to here: As you'll have no doubt guessed, the incredibly frustrating part is Ravensthorpe. There is absolutely no room for error here. You have to hit the junction at exactly 45mph with the brakes already released. If you don't, you'll be slower on the fast line and have a worse start for the Huddersfield climb. It was only the better performance to Marsden that made up for my mess-up. Speaking of which, that climb to Marsden is the second thing. If this run and your techniques, lcyrrjp, have taught me anything, it's this: If you're climbing, you cannot ever under any circumstances whatsoever sacrifice even the smallest bit of pressure. The Jubilee climbed that entire ordeal at 220-225psi. That seems to be how you get the most out of her. I've tried sticking to 175 or 200 before, but it seems she accepts no compromise. Something to keep in mind not only for this but also for future runs. The same thing happened with the climb to Morley. At full pressure, she got me up to 27mph faster than before and outperformed the other climbs in the later bits.

Spoiler: Whatever could I have hidden in here?

45613 'Kenya' pulls out of Leeds in full steam and with glorious thunder.


The signallers at Marsden breathe a sigh of relief. She made it safe and sound.


The crew is relieved as well. "The worst's behind us now..." The old girl thunders into the sun to Greenfield.


The crew of a Peak observes as 'Kenya' makes her way into Stalybridge. "What's that old kettle doing here?"

 

Fantastic run, Lamplight! The first genuine right-time arrival, I would say.

It feels as if you squeezed a little more out of the loco than I did on the climbs, and made a better fist of the braking overall, and that combination gained us an extra 45 seconds.

I genuinely thought this challenge might not be possible at first, but it's really interesting to see the way we've found time, bit by bit.



Beautiful pictures once again. That one from the cab at Greenfield, although a familiar perspective, really benefits from the black-and-white and captures the low winter sun perfectly. However, I think my favourite is actually the one at Leeds. The stark, hard lines of the concrete station contrast so well with the Jubilee's curves and explosion of steam.

 

lcyrrjp, thank you so much Teamwork got us there in the end

It’s like that engineering saying: I can’t tell you where to save 1 ton, but I can tell you 1000 places where you can save 1kg. I agree. I knew we could never match the climbing in the logs when I first read it and after my first attempt, I was convinced that arriving on time was not possible. Yet here we are after chipping away seconds where we can.

Thanks The picture in Leeds was inspired by that one picture in the Christmas contest that had the 8F engulfed in steam. I was also reminded of that scene in Thomas where Henry starts the fish train in the docks at night. I was actually surprised how nice TSW captures the fluidity of steam in my shot, looks better than I expected.

 

Leeds - Stalybridge Jubilee 45624 'St Helena' +11 MKIs Attempt 1:

Sorry for the delay in my report I have had a surprising l hectic day, the desk is up though, so the mrs is happy!

Right what I'll do first is put my mini table here and then give a run down of my run:


Right, so lets go through it:

As seen I made my departure from Leeds on the dot and I employed my usual accelerate like nothing else tactic which swiftly got my up to the 10MPH PSR through the throat, admittedly flickering between 10 and 11, getting myself mentally prepared for the awaiting climb. At the limit increases to 20 and 25 respectively I go for getting to them as quick as possible, adjusting from something like 30 reg, 30 cut off, to a much less aggressive 26/21 arrangement which built both pressure and speed meaning I could go to the 34/21 seen for the rest of that climb to Morley, with the highest speed reached 28MPH before it started to drop off at the top. Once over the peak I went with a 60/17 approach which built up the speed quickly and let the pressure be used but slowly enough that I knew I'd be able to build it back. When I got out of the tunnel and started my descent I adjusted to the 63/16 documented at Batley and creeped up to 61 before braking for the PSR at Dewsbury. I when whizzing past Dewsbury at 12:19.06 with the safeties blasting, or at least TSW's equivalent, thinking about how important this next braking curve would be.

As I approached Ravensthorpe I shut off and just started to get some brakes applied trying not to be too harsh and I managed to time it close to perfectly with the speed ticking down to 45 and the vac building back up to 21PSI as I passed the 45 sign, so relieved with that I then got on with this next section. I did really give it the beans here with something like 35/19 initially which catapulted my speed up to 49 before realising the climb I had ahead and so I adjusted to the 26/16 which built the pressure from 200 to 220 and took speed to 50 through Mirfield. instead of braking for the steep descent through the fly under I shut off the start of the slight climb before the junction taking the speed to 46MPH at the time of hitting the slope, I then went with my 40/17 which got the speed to 50 before losing it on the steep initial incline, down to 45, however once on the 1:147 (I think that's what it is) up the Huddersfield it held speed better although as seen did drop, but the key thing was it were holding and then as the climb progressed building pressure at a good rate. I then approached Huddersfield with most of the deceleration apart from the last 5 MPH being it decreasing naturally which meant I didn't drop below 25 through the station, which I past through at 12:30.04, and these would be a key base to build on as I hit the steep 1:105 climb.

Initially I went for a 29 reg, 22 cut off which took me down to 20 on the steep initial climbs through the tunnels however once I got through them and hit the 1:105 I decided to settle for 34/21 like earlier which took speed to 21MPH and built the pressure very quickly leading me to switch to 39/21 which held 22 for most of the climb and a slight adjustment to 50 on the regulator taking us to 24 before entering the tunnel. through the tunnel I just gave her the beans getting to 48 before slowing for the 45MPH PSR at the other end and then adjusting to 20/16 to get that speed up to approximately 60 mph, with the absolute maximum being 66 between Greenfield and Mossley. For Stalybridge again my braking seemed to be good and I hit 15mph as I came out of the tunnel knowing that all I could do were watch the seconds float away as I crawled along the platform waiting to record my time. I took a screenshot and then came to a halt at the signal at 13:03.42.

Not a bad run by any means and I very much couldn't have done it without the prior knowledge of both of your runs, so thank you for that. I do think that we can get this down by at least another minute though if we can increase our speeds by a couple of MPH on each of the three big inclines as it is clear the difference they have.

Lastly I just want to apologise if this post seems slightly disjointed as I have written this over a period of 3 or 4 hours so couldn't get into a flow before being interrupted!

Spoiler: I said lastly but there are a few more things!

 

Lamplight Well done mate, that is a great run you have had as well. Great screenshots as usual too!

 

Thanks, matt#4801, but let me congratulate you Amazing run chipping off even more seconds!

Very interesting approach with the high cut-offs in short bursts and lower ones for sustained performance. As I said in my report, I’m under the impression that pressure is king, but - as your run shows - it’s equally important to know when you can sacrifice pressure and how much.

I like how we’re chipping away at the Morley climb. We’ve gone from 24mph to 25 and now to 26. Obviously, you pulled off Ravensthorpe - Huddersfield much cleaner than me. The climb to Marsden seems very similar to my last one with the exception that you already started putting some of your pressure to work through Marsden while I waited until I was in the flat.

Fantastic work!

Also very good screenshots While I’ve grown fond of the black and white, I adore the de-saturated shots you’ve taken. It creates a very intense atmosphere, at least for me. Also, I like that we’ve both had the idea of taking a shot through a cab window this time

 

I'm going to chip in again and say that you guys make this thread my favourite to read on the forum! The pictures and story telling/run posts are great! Makes a change to see some wholesome content

Keep the posts coming!

 

Fantastic run, Matt. Really interesting to see that a slightly different approach can have equally good results (a few seconds quicker, in fact!)

It sounds as if you were more aggressive than I’ve been, particularly in the early stages of climbs. When I’m leaving Leeds I treat the increase in line speed from 10mph to 20mph as effectively the beginning of the climb, using low reg/cut-offs straight away to conserve boiler pressure. As a result I don’t reach the 20mph line speed before it increases to 25mph, and I don’t reach the 25mph before it increases to 60mph. Your approach of using higher reg/cut-off to get quickly up to line speed on these sections undoubtedly gains you some time initially, and it sounds as if the impact on boiler pressure is small enough that you still have enough to sustain those higher speeds on the climb.

I’ll have to give that approach a go next time, and see if I can make it work as well as you did.

I had another go at Birmingham - Bromsgrove last night (haven’t had time to write it up yet) and the challenge is similar - how to produce enough power for the initial acceleration out of the PSRs at New Street and Kings Norton, without losing so much boiler pressure that you pay for it later on the climb. I think the techniques you used on the above run might prove to be the key.

Finally - great pictures! The way you adjust the colour (what Lamplight refers to as de-saturation - I’ll take his word for it!) really makes it feel like a window back in time.

 

Thanks like you said above just that few extra MPH on the hills makes a difference, I need to a write up for the Birmingham to Bromsgrove run done too, though I don't think I'll get a chance until later on in the evening now! What I will say is it were harder than I thought it were going to be initially.

Glad you like the screenshots too!

 

Thanks Lamplight mate, like James has said I do think it is that extra aggression on the acceleration which helped out and I am sure someone will shave even more off in no time at all. Thanks mate, the 'de-saturated' shots are what I am favouring with the steam locos as I just don't think I can get the B&W ones to look right, which you've mastered, and it still gives them that 'period' feel.

 

I've added Matt's excellent run to the table, for easy comparison. I've taken the liberty of estimating a passing time at Stalybridge, as Matt recorded an arrival time only, and we'd previously been recording passing times for comparison with the original 1964 run (which didn't stop). The estimate is based on Lamplight's first run (on which he recorded passing and arrival times, and there was a 50 second gap between the two).



Close comparison of the running times really shows the way in which Matt gained from his more aggressive approach at certain critical locations, sometimes paying a penalty for it later on, but generally losing less than he initially gained. An example is opening the regulator up to 50% between Slaithwaite and Marsden. Comparing to Lamplight's most recent run (the previous fastest) that gained Matt a huge 1m23s on that section alone. Lamplight then regained 32s of that on the section to Greenfield - I guess due to having more boiler pressure left to accelerate in Standedge Tunnel - but that still gave Matt a gain overall through being more aggressive.

There's some really interesting knowledge gained from these two very fast, but very different runs.

 

I made a second attempt at Birmingham - Bromsgrove yesterday. Actually - I must be honest - it was a third attempt, but the second was so bad I'd prefer that we never speak of it again (let alone display the times in public).

I had 45678 De Robeck (a WW1 Admiral in the Royal Navy, apparently - I had to look that up) with the usual 10 mk1s. On my first attempt I'd run Kenya's boiler pressure too low, too early, and struggled the rest of the way. I therefore focussed on maintaining boiler pressure and in the early stages was able to match - and even slightly better - my times on the previous attempt, while maintaining much higher pressure.

We touched a maximum of 53mph in the dip before Bournville, eased for the 40mph at King's Norton - passing 19 seconds earlier than on my previous attempt - and with 200psi showing on the gauge, felt well placed to take advantage on the long climb to Barnt Green. In the event, I struggled to really make the steam I'd saved up tell on this section. As usual I was conservative at first, then let it go on the final stage of the climb, and I passed Barnt Green 3mph faster, but having gained only another 14 seconds, putting me 33 seconds better overall - a bit disappointing.

From that point on, it's all about getting the braking right, and on this I did much better at both Blackwell and Bromsgrove, giving me an arrival time of 08:18:28 - 1m 12s faster than my first attempt, and only 28 secs slower than schedule.



Although pleased to be close to schedule , I do think there's more time to be had here, and that the 23 minute schedule is achievable. I may have over-compensated from the mistakes of my first run, and was perhaps too conservative, particularly on the King's Norton to Barnt Green section.

 

I love this thread. With no intention to go over it again, we all know that the state of steam traction in TSW is less than ideal. But here we come together to enjoy what is has to offer regardless and make the most out of it. We work together to make it the best it can be and have fun. I feel like this is one the very few threads that have grown into something much larger and much more heartfelt than just a thread with posts.

Good catch with the Stalybridge time. That really puts into perspective just how much faster matt#4801’s run was. I don’t have much to add to your analysis. The aggressiveness seems to have paid off. I hadn’t noticed just how much time was saved between Slaithewait and Marsden compared to my last run (I had only compared Huddersfield to Slaithewait for my comment on the climbs being similar). I think you’re spot on about how I gained some seconds back in the tunnel. Looking back at the report, matt#4801 describes hitting the tunnel at 24. I can’t give you a precise figure, but I think I hit it with something more like ~28mph by giving her the beans as soon as I was on the flat stretch before the tunnel. Don’t know when I’ll have the time, but I’d love to have another go with some of these insights as well

Also, think I’ll have to at least watch some gameplay of BCC for now to better understand your reports. Very interested in how that challenge works out

 

Inspired by Lamplight's return to Crewe-Liverpool, I had a go myself with 'The Manxman'.

There was to be no record-breaking on this bitterly cold January afternoon, as the ground was thick with snow. 45765 'Hardy' had 10 mk1s, fully loaded with Londoners keen to make their connection with the Isle of Man steam ship. She'd had a good run down from Euston, and we departed from Crewe on time.

Keen to make a good start, I opened the regulator a little too quickly, and twice the big driving wheel spun on the icy rails. I eased her back, and - now more cautiously - gradually re-opened the regulator.



The gentler start had the merit, at least, of preserving boiler pressure, and as the level ground after Crewe gave way to the falling gradients through Winsford, speed rose steadily, and 765 began to show what she could do. With 39% regulator and 17% cut-off we touched 74mph in the dip before Hartford and then, with boiler pressure still high, 77mph after Acton Bridge, before slowing for Weaver Junction.



I was a little slow to release the brakes through the junction, and speed got down to 46mph, which affected the climb to Sutton Weaver. Partly as a result the climbing on this section was less impressive than Nova Scotia's had been a few days before. Starting at 49% regulator and 20% cut-off I opened up as far as 72% regulator and 23% cut-off as pressure fell, but we were down to 33mph at the summit. I hadn't been brave enough in using up every bit of available steam, and, after the long downhill section - braking for the 55mph at Runcorn and passing high above the Mersey - the safety valves lifted as we descended from the bridge.



This time, though, I was determined to get a good run at the next bank. We passed through Ditton junction a fraction above the limit, and charged the bank - 47% regulator and 20% cut-off gave plenty of power while preserving pressure well, and we passed the first summit at Speke at 51mph. Then came the short downhill section, and we touched 58mph at Speke Junction to carry the momentum into the final ascent. Knowing there'd be no more need for steam after that, we gave it everything - 68% regulator and 23% cut-off, opening up to 27% as pressure dropped, we held our speed on the initial 1 in 331 to Mossley Hill, passing through at 57mph. Only after that, with the 40mph restriction ahead, did we finally ease off, allowing speed to drop on the 1 in 113, before controlling the slow descent into Lime Street knowing we had time in hand.

Arrival at Lime Street was at 13:45:59 - a minute slower than Lamplight's effort with Nova Scotia, but 4 minutes inside our 50 minute schedule, and in good time for the boat.

 

lcyrrjp, impressive run in the adverse conditions. Well done Lagging barely a minute behind my run, which had optimal weather conditions and at least some advantage by slightly speeding at Weaver Jn., is nothing to scoff at.

Good work on the screenshots, too. The POV-shots from the coach are nice - a common perspective for us reproduced in-game. My favourite though is the one in Runcorn. Looks right like those pictures you find in railway literature.

Glad I could inspire you to head back to SoS. It really is a lovely route despite the shortcomings already discussed to death. I’ve been meaning to return to it again, as well - maybe with the return trip Liverpool to Crewe, or a semi fast stopping at Runcorn perhaps? I don’t know yet. What I do know is that I’m still itching for some more steam

 

Hi Lamplight

Are these runs with TSW4 on PC, with the manual firing?Liverpool lime street

With TSW3 I tried the Liverpool lime street-Crewe with one stop at Runcorn today. This was on PS4 with automatic firing.This was a timetabled service from Lime Street at 11.40 with 10 mk1s.

From Lime street I started with 50% cut-off and 14% regulator, once upto 10mph I set the regulator to 42% and cut-off at 24%. The speed rose slowly on the climb, I reached the platform at Edge hill at 19mph.
Boiler pressure had dropped down by about 35psi. Over the next section to Runcorn I kept within the speed limits apart from 3 or 4mph over.
On the climb to Runcorn with 60% regulator 20% cut-off the minimum was 38mph as I headed over the viaduct. After the restart from Runcorn the climb at 1in114-1in100 was 60% regulator and 20-24% cut-off. Speed holding around 23mph until the easier grade of 1in159. Another couple of miles and It was 12.12 arrival at Crewe was booked at 12.12, but I had 9.8 miles to go. So arrived at Crewe 12.24. Even if I ignored all the speed restrictions, there's no way I would of arrived right time at Crewe.

 

Hiya, andy#3741

Sorry if you got slightly confused. I noticed we haven’t mentioned the basic set-up in a while, so I imagine it’s easy to get lost if you’re only just joining in. I’m playing on TSW4/PS5, but TSW3/4 shouldn’t matter (don’t think there was a patch in 4 affecting steam locos) and neither does PC/PS/Xbox.
The important thing is that we’re not using automatic firing since the steam locos seem way to powerful on it. lcyrrjp did some testing and found that the Jubilee more closely resembles her real performance characteristics if we’re using manual firing with the front and back dampers at 25% each. This will make steam consumption much more of an issue. Make sure though that the fire box door is open for the entire run. Otherwise, TSW might give you a game over screen.

Ignore the timings TSW gives you, they’re nonsense. If I recall correctly, the real timetable for Liverpool-Runcorn-Crewe gives you 55 minutes for the whole run. At the end of my post, I’ve linked some of the previous attempts at this run for you, if you’d like to have a go at it with manual firing and dampers at 25%. Trust me, I speak from experience, it’s much more fun than automatic firing. I knew next to nothing about driving steam locos when I started here.

I’m sure all of us here would be more than happy to give you some pointers about starting to run with our manual firing set-up, if you’d like. Or feel free to peruse our reports, which have all of our experiences in them or just start and see how it goes, whatever works for you

Some of the previous attempts:

 

Thanks Lamplight

So keep the firebox open, and manually adjust the dampers. Will this make the fireman continually throw coal into the firebox? Or is there a command to add the coal?

 

Opening the firebox door is the command to shovel coal. Since we have no way of knowing what the fire is doing, we have to keep the fireman shovelling indefinitely or TSW can end your session because the fire has gone out.

Other than that, just put both dampers to 25% and you're good to go. The blower doesn't work right, so no need to interact with it. If you like, you can reduce the small ejector to 30% when the brakes are fully released as per lcyrrjp's tip, to get that little bit of extra steam pressure.

That's all there is for the general set-up.

 

Very nicely explained, Lamplight. I’d been mulling over whether I should edit the first post of this thread to give a broader explanation (less focussed on SoS) and make it a sort of contents page of challenges contained within. I can imagine at the moment a newcomer to the thread has to do quite a lot of reading to make sense of it.

 

lcyrrjp, I get what you mean. When I looked through the thread for the previous runs, I noticed that it's not really all that good to navigate - and that's as someone who's been here more or less from the start. Perhaps we can do something like a public doc to collect everything? Not sure, I haven't given it any thought before now.

Speaking of which, I've something I wanted to write up for you. I wouldn't call it a challenge for reasons I'll explain below, but I've put in the work so I thought I might as well share it

The story of how I got there is slightly messy but may get a chuckle out of you. As I was looking through our old logs, I noticed lcyrrjp referring to this site early on containing loads of old timetables with the note that table 185 covers Peak Forest:
https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=1987099b-01c5-47f7-a8dd-ba173774ceb5

Now, I've always wanted to do something with PFR. It's such a beautiful route - especially with steam locos on it. I looked at the appropriate table and quickly found a scheduled run I could make use of:



It's the 4:20 London St. Pancras - Manchester. So, I was all set for a run, right? Oh snap, I have no idea what number of coaches would be appropriate. I try to look up pictures, which I find on this site I've used before :
https://davidheyscollection.myshopb...-photo-collection-52-rail-cameraman-er-morten

None of the pictures show a full train though, so I get back on Google and who would have thunk? In a happy little accident, I've found something better than just a timetable - one of our logs!
https://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition19/r45675man1958.htm



I check back and sure enough, the run is also in my timetable (7:55 London St. Pancras - Manchester The Palatine).
It's an 8-coach train over PFR from Matlock to Millers Dale, which you can continue all the way to Chinley if you're fine with a fast pass of the final station (I stopped about a mile later next to the freight yard).

Well, you know how giddy I get when you hand me a log I can try to work with, so I took a shot and formated it all as best I could for us:


I started in Matlock on foot in timetable mode. I had to wait for an express service to run through before I could spawn in my consist (Jubilee + 10 mk1s and delete 2 coaches), which made the start timing quite tight (notice my 20-second late departure). Getting up to speed to Darley Dale and Rowsley was easy enough with the trusty 29/19. After that though is where the trouble starts.

From Rowsley all the way to Peak Forest, you're almost constantly on a 1% gradient, same as Huddersfield-Marsden on NTP. As we've seen before, we simply cannot match the logs on these hard climbs. I tried my best and experimented with various regulator/cut-off configurations before Monsal Dale gave me a brief breather with a short falling gradient. I slowly chuffed my way into Millers Dale already 3 minutes late and 4.5 minutes behind the log.

In perhaps a bit of morbid curiosity, I pushed on regardless up the 1.1%(!) gradient to Peak Forest, in which my performance was not even that far off the logs in terms of speed (24mph steady climbing for me, 28 for the log). Down the hill after Peak Forest, I flogged her like never before with a fully opened regulator and 26 on the cut-off, which built up speed rapidly with the falling 1.1% gradient down to Chapel-en-le-Frith. It seems like the speed limits of our driver were lower than ours in TSW, but I made full use of what I had to make the most of the run. I thundered through Chinley 7.5 minutes after schedule and 5.5 minutes slower than the log.

The reason why I'm hesitant to name this one of our challenges is that I'm pretty sure this run is simply not doable in our usual way. Our climbs are always weaker than real logs and this run is nothing but one long climb (apart from the last leg to Chinley). It's the flats and downhill runs where we usually make up time we lost on climbs. A better run than mine is certainly possible. I mostly just wanted to have a first run and see if we're even in the right ballpark. That said, I'd be more than happy to see another take on this if someone does want to join in.

One thing to note though is the vastly different starting situations between the log and my set-up. In the log, the loco is more than warmed up and raring to go after the run from London to Matlock, while my Jubilee Keith started in Matlock utterly cold. I don't want to read too much into it, but maybe that's the reason the climb to Peak Forest (when mine had time to warm up) more closely resembled the log compared to the climb to Millers Dale. Or it could just be any number of other factors. I've thought about maybe running from Ambergate with plenty of time to sync up to the timetable just to have a slightly warmer loco in Matlock for a future run if I should do one.

Anyways, as I said, I had already put in the work so I wanted to share it with you all. One last thing, of course...

Spoiler: :)

As 45655 Keith pulls out of Matlock with The Palatine, the jubilations are already well underway.


Keith slowly fights the gradients up to Millers Dale.

 

Great find, Lamplight, and a really interesting account of the run. I’ve only done a bit of playing around with Peak Forest but have generally experienced the same thing, that we can’t match the schedules on the climbs. However, I look forward to giving this a go. As you say, I suspect it’s not possible to match the 1958 run (interesting that even the real loco couldn’t keep to the schedule, despite no indication of any signal checks) but that doesn’t stop us seeing how close we can get!

I also notice that the log of the return ‘Palatine’ on the same day, is available on the same site. It had a Black 5 on it, but that doesn’t make too much difference, and it helpfully has a call at Chinley, so we’d have the same standing start (we could drive it all the way to passing Ambergate). One thing at a time, though! Let’s see how close we can get in the Down direction, first.

 

Peak Forest will be a fun one. I still need to get round to writing up my BCC run first though!

 

I made a first attempt at the Down 'Palatine'. As usual I focused on preserving boiler pressure in the early stages, mostly running at 41% regulator and 17% cut-off (41/17), and touched a maximum of 52mph before braking for the junction at Rowsley, which we passed with 220psi of pressure.

Then the long climb began. Running at 37/16 we were down to 32mph through Bakewell, and 29mph passing Hassop Box. After that I gradually opened up the cut-off to sustain speed as boiler pressure dropped. 43/19 at Great Longstone, 52/19 entering Headstone Tunnel, still holding speed at 29mph, and then relief at last, as the short downward section enabled us to recover speed, to 42mph through Monsal Dale, with pressure now down to 165psi, and then a final effort - up to 71/22 - as we used up the last of our steam on the final section to Millers Dale.

My braking for Millers Dale was rather cautious, and arrival was at 11:11:00 - 3 minutes late. By departure time boiler pressure had fully recovered, and we started out on the last section of the ascent to Peak Forest. Knowing it was a relatively short distance to the summit I started out more aggressively, and opened up regulator and cut-off further as boiler pressure fell - to 64/25, 71/29 and ultimately 71/32. With speed dropping away, however, the climb felt endless, and boiler pressure fell further and further, until we finally struggled over the summit at 20mph with pressure down to 135psi.

After that it, was a fast run down through Dove Holes Tunnel, up to 80mph before Chapel-en-le-Frith, and through Chinley at speed, at 11:30:09 - 6 minutes late.



I felt as if I judged the climb as far as Millers Dale about right, preserving steam at first, then giving it everything on the final section, but retaining enough pressure that we were back up to 220psi by departure time. Poor braking for Millers Dale cost me about 20 seconds though. The second climb, from there to Peak Forest, I think there's time to be had - I was too aggressive initially, and my speed over the summit was 4mph slower than Lamplight with 45655 which, as we know, represents a lot of time.

Overall, therefore, I think there's about a minute still to be had, which would get us down to 5 mins late at Chinley (and within 3 minutes of Hardy's 1958 run), but I'm not sure where we'd find much more than that. Perhaps Lamplight's suggestion of starting at Ambergate to warm up the loco might be worth a go. Still, it's a thoroughly enjoyable run - the intriguing technical challenge of trying to judge the climb just right, then the thrill of storming through Chapel and Chinley at speed, all on a spectacularly beautiful route, which in my view is well represented by DTG.

Thank you to Lamplight for discovering this challenge, which I'll certainly be having another go at in the coming days.

 

My pen is poised, ready to add you to the BCC spreadsheet, Matt!

 

Great effort! I concur, your climb to Millers Dale seems spot on, a large improvement over my preliminary run. The last climb to Peak Forest is really hard to judge, I think. Unrelated to this challenge, I ran the 8:00 Buxton-Manchester stopping service today, which is actually in the TSW PFR timetable represented by a Jubilee + 4 mk1s. I had a little bit of time, wanted some steam, and noticed that the timings in TSW are almost correct.

When I tackled the climb, I went for a steam-preserving approach but the acceleration didn’t seem good enough out of the 10mph restriction at the junction. Then, the climb seemed to go on and on, so I thought preserving steam had been the right move after all. As I got closer to Peak Forest, I noticed how much time I had lost, so I should have been more aggressive in the beginning as it turned out. My point is - as this rollercoaster hopefully illustrates - the climb to Peak Forest seems to be in an awkward place where it’s just long enough that you can’t just sprint up the hill, but just short enough that a very conservative approach is a tad slow.

It is an interesting run and I’m glad I’m not the only one enjoying what PFR has to offer (in general but also for our challenges). It really was just stupid luck that I found the log - read old messages, found the the timetable, looked for coach numbers, found log by accident I’ll certainly try to have another go in the next couple of days.

As for our visual pleasure, really like what you did with the first two screenshots. The perspective from the footbridge works really well to immerse yourself in the picture while the second one - blurry wheels and all - truly captures the speed and dynamism.

I might not have a horse in the race, so to say, but I’m certainly sitting eagerly in the stands!

 

Eventually I have got my report written, admittedly my memory of this run is slightly more hazed than others so it won't be the longest or most in depth analysis. Here is my table:

NOTE: the regulator is the left of the slash and the cut off to the right.


So I started at New Street ready to go and off I went bang on time, without much fuss, up to 10MPH where I held myself until I passed the 20MPH PSR a little further out of New Street up the hill. I, for some reason (I am putting it down to overconfidence) were rather conservative and less aggressive than I would usually be on the climbs and found myself conserving and wasting pressure which led to a slow acceleration and a change to 51/21 before winding the cut off back to 17. As seen my speed steadily climbed with noting particularly special happening before I prepare my braking for the 40 MPG PSR prior to Kings Norton which was a bog standard braking procedure according to my notes!

once the limit increased I let her go a bit heading towards Northfield which is where I let her go a bit more as I knew I wouldn't need much steam after Barnt green, though I didn't want to run it down too much as realistically the journey would have gone on further so the real driver wouldn't have had this luxury. As seen I passed Barnt Green at 51 MPH and that reached a maximum of 53 before me braking for Northfield's 30MPH PSR. Once going down Lickey I let gravity do it's work until I needed to brake, which were, again according to notes, a bit of a frantic process as I think I got caught off guard by the gradient and ended over braking causing for you have to get that vac pressure back up ASAP whilst still making dure I would stop. I then came to a halt on Plat 4 at 08:18.58, just shy of a minute late and between James' two attempts.

There is certainly time to be had, though I think my next steam run will be trying out this PFR run as I do love that route.

I only got the one screenshot so I'll just leave it below:

 

Well, I just about had time to squeeze in another run on PFR. Not going to lie, it was a pretty bad effort on my part, but I did my Ambergate idea, so I wanted to report back on that.

Obviously, the Ambergate - Matlock timings are of little relevance since they're not trying to match any schedule or performance - I just included them for transparency's sake so that we're all on the same page. Once it was obvious that I was going to be quite early in Matlock, I eased off the regulator and even braked down to 10-15mph just so that I could keep the fire working.

The start to Rowsley was rather uneventful. I didn't match lcyrrjp's performance though, which I assume stems from me not being aggressive enough when pulling off and reducing the cut-off too quickly. I did hit 53mph just before Rowsley though. The climb to Monsal Dale was quicker this time around, but I struggled to maintain 29mph. Often, it was just the gentle breathers you often get just before our check markers that pushed me to 29mph again.

One interesting observation: lcyrrjp described losing boiler pressure around/after Hassop, if I understood correctly. It was the opposite for me. Just after Hassop, my safety valves lifted, which is why I slightly increased my cut-off. An effect of a warmer loco, perhaps? Unless I misunderstood the previous report. Edit: A misunderstanding that has been cleared up, my loco was behaving very similar to lcyrrjp’s. Not steaming better.

I entered Headstone Tunnel with 180psi in the kettle and left it doing 42mph. Monsal Dale is where I obliterated my run, unfortunately. I got cocky and misjudged the distance left to Millers Dale. I used the ludicrous 40/26 combo thinking I could just sprint my way into Matlock. I was sorely mistaken. By the time the gradient eased out, I had just about 140psi in the kettle and was creeping into Millers Dale with my last breath. You'll notice my unusually long dwell time in Millers Dale. That was solely to regenerate my kettle pressure and even so, I left with less than 225psi. Monsal Dale was a costly mistake.

The lack of pressure cost me again on the climb to Peak Forrest. Since I didn't quite have a full kettle, Swaziland didn't want to play along and I used some 40/22 in an effort to make up some time. That did get me up to 25mph climbing for a bit but used up steam. So I switched back down again, at which point the depleted kettle could only muster 23mph.

After that, it was just the standard downhill program: Accelerate rapidly by burning through steam and try to hit the speed limits perfectly. 40 seconds quicker through Chinley, but still a disappointing run.

I'm not sure if starting at Ambergate had any real, tangible benefit. As I elaborated, it seems that my loco might have been steaming a little better on the climb to Monsal Dale. Edit: see above

Anyways, at least I got some pretty pictures out of it

Spoiler: No peak-ing!

45630 'Swaziland' and 45675 'Hardy' meet just outside Ambergate.


Swaziland accelerates out of a tunnel just outside Matlock Bath.


Traffic jam at Matlock.


Swaziland's an imposing sight thundering through the level crossing.

 

Well I have given the NTP Jubilee plus 11 Mk1s challenge a couple of goes and, quite simply, it was a disaster
I knew I was going to be in trouble when I was given "Rodney". (Did the game really think I was Del-Boy?).
On my first run I literally conked out altogether (is that a technical term?) before I got to Morley.

On my second run I did a bit better until I got to Dewsbury where I missed the speed restriction, overdid it with the brakes and set off a chain of events that brought me to another stop before Mirfield. This time I thought I would carry on and, eventually, did make it to Stalybridge (but I don't think that I will be posting any timings).

My issue at the moment, other than I don't know what I am doing, is with braking. If I apply the brakes then I often come to a complete stop. Why is that happening and what am I doing wrong? (I'm guessing that I should be monitoring pressure somewhere?).

Anyway, despite my 2 runs being hopeless, I am enjoying the challenge. It has put a whole new emphasis on the game play. And I can, at least, put up some nice screenshots

 

Great pictures, Spikeyorks. Some interesting jaunty camera angles and I particularly like the last one, taken from high up in the hills.

In terms of braking, here are my thoughts (and apologies if some of this is obvious, but I don’t know your level of experience).

- make sure you have the large injector fully open when releasing the brake. If you’re using only the small injector, it will take ages to release. Remember to close the large injector once you’ve fully released the brake, though, as it uses up steam.
- remember that if boiler pressure is low, it will take longer to release the brake than if boiler pressure is high.
- however… even with both injectors open and high boiler pressure, the brake will take much longer to release than on modern stock. Try to brake early, so that you don’t have to brake too hard (about 10 inches of vacuum is good). The fact you’re decelerating more slowly also makes it easier to judge the releasing of the brake. Even then, at 10 inches of vacuum, you need to start releasing the brake when speed is about 10mph above your target speed, otherwise you’ll under-shoot.
- if you do have to brake very hard, you need to start releasing the brake even earlier, at 0-5 inches of vacuum, you need to start releasing the brake with speed about 20mph above your target speed.
- be aware that, particularly with a long train, the brake pressure at the back of the train lags behind that on the locomotive (which is shown on the dial). So you need to get the dial back up to 21 inches of vacuum, but then you should expect the train to continue slowing for a short while, because at the back of the train the brakes are still applied for a few more seconds.

Hopefully this is of some use, but if it’s not helping, do shout up and I’m sure between us we’ll work it out. Steam is great fun when you get the hang of it, so it’s worth persisting.

 

Interesting run, Matt. It looks as if your speeds were very similar to the ones I achieved on my second run, but you were slightly more strict in your compliance with the 40mph PSR at King’s Norton which, with the long climb to Blackwell ahead, probably accounted for most of the time difference.

In terms of retaining boiler pressure for the next Driver taking the train forward to Bristol, I’ve found that even with boiler pressure very low by Blackwell, the long descent of the Lickey and the dwell time at Bromsgrove combined are enough to get the safety valves lifting before departure time - so I think you can afford to work it a bit harder on the climb if you want to.

I like the picture. It’s a tricky route for steam photography because there’s no escaping the OLE, but that’s a great shot, and the vegetation in front of the camera works really well.