I think steam would have come regardless. It seems strange building a train simulator and not having any plans for steam, unless you are looking at a more bespoke type of railway practice, like Run8 for example.
sounds less like “been there tried that” and more like “not made any moves on anything to do with that, at least as of yet” to me anyhows.
it was at least considered way back at least in TSW1 from what I’ve heard, it got delayed as much as the plans for the editor, back then I don’t think they counted how many iterations they would do in the future and probably expected it as coming further down the line.
Yeah, I doubt we'll ever see Smokebox jump ship from TSC over to TSW with Steam, if the base stuff isn't even working properly.
not sure about 3rd party stuff but theirs nothing to say DTG wouldn’t do US steam trains, it’s the same with Germany. it’s the same as saying they wouldn’t do U.K. steam trains before SOS, their not done until they are.
I do feel bad for those that are a fan of Steam. TSW hasn't done well when it comes to steam in terms of physics and DTG don't seem keen on making the necessary improvements.
I think their hesitation/delay on that turns 1 problem into 2, they don’t help themselves at times when the resolution is knocking at the door.
Given... 1. How badly Clinchfield sold. 2. How much research would need to be done for a Steam or Transition era US route. 3. How Modern excursion locos for TSW routes are in limited quantity aside from UPs Big Boy and FEF #844 I'm not seeing DTG even touching US steam with a 10ft pole.
never say never until they say never. U.K. steam trains really only have much of an advantage as being closer to the DTG office (which don’t count for too much), they’re in a pretty similar place apart from that. I doubt they would base Clinchfield as an example of American steam… it doesn’t have much connection, most US routes are pretty slow speed anyways so it wouldn’t be on that neither.
The issues pile up and DTG don't want to fix them. Perhaps if they weren't like that when they released, there wouldn't be so much criticism when it comes to steam physics for example. Frankly, they did this to themselves.
I understand the nostalgia strongly associated with steam, but I ignore that part, except getting Flying Scotsman cos it was part of TSW 4 special edition (which I got to get Vectron)... I'm just fine with diesel and electric, although I understand the sadness that comes for those who like steam and dont get enough of a fix here... it kinda sucks not to get more content that you like... so even if I dont care for steam, I hope you wont get abandoned
Steam doesn't interest me either but I too wouldn't want those who like steam locomotives to not get abandoned either
they’re update/improve/bug/patch history is in need of reform for a long time now, they are quite self destructive for ignoring what should be a number 1 priority, they give they’re biggest fault the most leniency.
Dunno, seems like the freedom smaller third parties have, with less to worry about in the way of budget and deadlines, might be advantageous here. Are you above stacking the deck? https://github.com/FlyTechVideos/BluescreenSimulator "Honey, this keeps happening now. I think we need to bite the bullet."
Very, very disappointed with this news, and I think it completely vindicates the complaints expressed in this thread. Utterly unbelievable that they have thrown in the towel with stream traction, and so much for TSW’s potential as the future of train simulation. It seems now that it’s become simply a production line cash cow of bland routes and uninspiring stock. The staff who have been part of the original vision seem to have moved on or retired, and now no news from the executive producer. I will try to enjoy the good DLC that I have invested in, but where now does the future lie? Not TSC that’s for sure, and Simrail has a long way to go still.
What authenticity attaches to a train simulator without a steam segment, a form of traction that started and powered the railway for 70% of its history. It's a poor show. I suppose we should expect a succession of tedious electric routes and trains from now on with occasional dmus and classic diesel from the likes of Just Trains, God bless 'em. And one more nail in the coffin of traditional American traction. Indeed, I've been pessimistic about the future for US routes and trains in general for some time now.
Havn't we learnt already to not believe anything they say? They keep lying and promising things all the time and they have done so ever since the very beginning of TSW. The best thing you can do is never buying anything based on promises. Only believe what you can already see and experience in game, and only buy an add-on if you are satisfied with the way it is now, because there is very little chance of anything being improved following release.
no decision has been made on anything, it’s business as usual today. Theirs simply just no news on anything.
Speaking from a heritage railway viewpoint, steam draws the public to a much greater extent than diesels/DMUs. Various major heritage railways in the UK have reported that when they are unable to run steam during a specified gala or holiday period (fire risk in particularly hot weather,last minute multiple loco failures, severe weather etc etc) footfall and revenue goes through the floor, the last railway I can remember reporting this was the North Yorkshire Moors railway which is one of the most popular heritage lines in the UK and that’s far from unique in terms of visitors voting with their feet in similar circumstances. Thats not to say that diesel galas etc aren’t also very well attended, but steam draws the public on a consistent basis and better serves the ‘nostalgia’ requirements of the public that they seek from the whole heritage railway experience. Anyone who is in under the age of 60 will not remember scheduled steam in the UK, and thats being very generous by taking a measurement of being 5 years old at the very end of steam in 1968. The vast majority of steam fans at whatever level or in fact just those who enjoy steam hauled trips for example for the occasion rather than the loco, or even visit a steam heritage railway once a year never saw or rode behind steam on BR. For that reason we cannot generalise and think steam is for the older folk and modern EMUs/DMUs are for a younger generation, because the demographics for all really are hugely diverse. There will no doubt be trends towards certain age groups, and thats understandable. I grew up during the BR Blue era, and can remember when the London termini and various cities around the UK we travelled to had a BR blue diesel at the head of the train. I enjoy using heritage diesels in game, but it doesn’t mean that because its ‘my’ period it’s the reason I’d buy TSW or content for the game. What must also be considered is the target demographic DTG have for TSW, as real world appreciation of a specific period is of course only a part of the reason why an individual of any demographic will purchase a PC or console railway simulation. I’m certain that modern image is without question the period that creates the most revenue for DTG, but abandoning steam and producing no further content or indeed fixing the issues with steam in game makes no sense to me commercially. I read that Peak Vallley did not meet expectations sales wise, could it be perhaps that poor reviews following a negative customer experience correlated with poor sales ? I would suggest that this was a major factor in its poor commercial performance. By not fixing the issues within the game, DTG are then closing off the steam railway revenue stream on a permanent basis when there are many customers within the TSW player base waiting to spend money on new steam DLC, a large proportion of the TSC player base who are steam fans and potentional TSW steam DLC customers (I’d certainly buy DLC on TSW that I already own on TSC) and of course new players who are discovering TSW for the first time. A wider choice of DLC content can only benefit DTG, surely ?. Let’s hope third party content providers for steam related DLC can work with DTG to somehow ‘rescue’ steam on TSW, the TP content on TSC is superb in it’s accuracy and authenticity, and I can imagine how fantastic content I own in TSC would look in TSW. From the statement it appears DTG are not going to be taking any further action to fix steam, but the wording appears to be chosen carefully as to not entirely close the door to DTG carrying out any further work. At this stage however it appears that our best hope are the third party content providers and who knows we may have end up with different tiers of locos within the game - a legacy Flying Scotsman, 4F, Jubille and 8F which are driven and perform as they do at present, and accurate DLC locos from TPs which perform and are driven as per TSC.
Both Smokebox, Bossman, Caledonian and I believe Victory Works too have developed their own scripts for simulation of steam locomotives. When done properly, such a scrips is configurable as to grate area, stoking rate, boiler volume, pressure, cylinder size and driving wheel diameter to get that pound of coal combusted, gallon of water evaporated delivered as tractive effort at the rail. The physics are well documented, the formulae complex but well within scope of competent programmers. DTG have other priorities and more than enough on their plate right now when their infallible 'market research' and sales figures have proven there is no market for steam locomotives with their current clientele. Only when there is not something fundamentally wrong with the TSW physics engine, there is still a change a third party like those mentioned will step in and try to fill the gap in the market.
Without DTG actively changing and improving the core, it's likely any third party producing steam traction would be unable to do anything better than the current four locos - poor physics, no fuel consumption and mushed up sounds. It might look like a steam loco from the outside but I can't see the quality developers for TSC wanting to compromise in order to get a sub standard experience in TSW.
Not that I'm generalising anything, but there is a difference to seeing and driving a steam loco in person rather than through a game. I'm not against it, but looking at other trends (not train related) there seems to be a different demographic that likes one thing to another.
That’s the question I have Vern, not having any coding knowledge of how these things work my closing comments are based on the assumption that DTG could potentially give TP content providers access to the part of the code that deals with steam physics in a test/prototype environment for the TP to find solutions to the current issues and create a new build for steam engine physics, which can then be put through a comprehensive testing process before being signed off by DTG and said TP (or TP groups if more than one provider are willing to work together as a project team). It would then depend on whether DTG are prepared to assign any resource to the project either financially or in terms of FTE liaising with the providers, testing phase etc, and of course whether any third party content provider is prepared to work on building new code at a cost to their business, offsetting that against potential revenue. There are quite a few high level decisions there both at DTG and potential TPs……..
Its really days like these where we miss having Sam as a community manager imo. But maybe all of this is why he left? Because it doesn't feel like theres anyone left in the communities corner? These forums for as long as steam has been out have been making suggestions, asking for improvements and giving really important feedback. And its all seemingly been ignored? Its almost like the DTG are in their own bubble of denial "I know what people want I'm never wrong". Its really hard to understand what DTG are actually doing at the moment because recently its like they've gone off for a swim with an anchor attached? Whether thats the powers that be or not who knows but its starting to get a bit worrying in my opinion at least lol.
As I understand it you can gut most of the core simulation code for locos in TSC and replace it with scripts. I'm less certain on how much you can do this with the public TSW editor - there have only been a few attempts at making locos in it.
well this is sth thats also kinda lacking in diesel stuff - yeah, there are scenarios where you have to "refuel", but thats just in those scenarios... and I kinda understand why they didnt do it - running the route once lets say in timetable mode would hardly drain a diesel of much of its fuel, so from that point of view it is pointless... maybe one day if we had like service mode style stuff where you would be running the same train back and forth more times, it would make more sense... I guess?
a point that I feel isnt very stressed here is that steam traction also draws much public not only by itself cos it is kinda cool, but also because what kind of train or loco do like soooo many children see from the earliest age? Steam loco/train, as representation of the "trainkind" ... like, if a little kid has never seen a train IRL, and you ask it to draw a train, I assume most will draw sth that looks like a steam engine... so it is ingrained from early on and when ppl grow up, they still remember fondly stuff from back when they were little, and it holds on modern trains are then seen as just some mode of transport you have to take to get somewhere, steam still holds that kind of fairy tale quality in it I am kinda weird in this regard - I remember older rolling stock in my hometown, later around Bratislava, and I am so glad the modern stuff took over - now it is actually quite nice to travel around here by train... and the earliest I can remember already electrics and diesel took over, never seen a steam engine and while they look cool, I am not very interested in those, even during my recent travels, I seek more modern trains I know, I am weird but we all have different tastes
I think clinchfield sold bad for a couple reasons. Lack of different wagons. Like 5 wagons all together for a big beautiful route was a bad way to show off Hey we can make old school trains too. Not to mention on release sd40 had same horn from SPG. F7 was the best part of the release to me but lacked a lot of detail as well.
Maybe steam would have sold better if DTG had put the effort in to make it good before rushing out a half-arsed effort that people complained about. Maybe promising that improvements would be made down the line didn’t change people’s views given the multitude of broken promises DTG have made over the years. Maybe DTG will FINALLY learn the lesson that rushing out shoddy work is ultimately going to backfire on them (it’s just a matter of time). When companies like Just Trains can release the stunningly good Blackpool Preston Ormskirk route (as a first effort no less), you really do have to wonder what’s going on internally at DTG.
dont forget that in TSC they have some seriously brutal stuff - like one of the most advanced renditions of RailJets in TSC (safety systems, precise startup procedure very close to real life, like having to enter some data, having to wait for brakes and electrics to initialize and such stuff...), and thats like one of things they have done there... so no surprise here for me I am sure they can deliver some awesome stuff down the road
Yet, I still consider Clinchfield probably the best US freight route overall since SPG. It really just needed some loco DLCs that are never coming.
I'm not a big fan of steam myself. But it kind of sounds like DTG can't seem to figure it out and is now hoping a 3rd party can come in and figure it out for them. Maybe they just need to step back for a bit and let somone else look at it with fresh eyes. But I don't read that they have completely abandoned it in what Alex said.
Matt also explained it's not really a big railway that everyone knows about. When you think of american freight, this route isn't the first that comes to mind. Star of the show was the f7 but that's about it
Can't really be that surprised though right? I mean this is a developer that has consistently lied to their customers for years. Never expect anything they say roadmap or otherwise to actually be true unless you actually see it in front of you. Everything else is potential fantasy la la land speak.
Abandoned steam? Sad news. But constantly telling us that 'manual firing is being worked on', 'coming soon' is not just sad, but unacceptable. You lied to your customers again. No more DLC purchases from me, either. You created this mess for yourself, now enjoy the consequences. Mickey Mouse company at its finest.
To be fair I covered this directly in my post above, and a preference, whefher you agree with the assertion or not, absolutely makes zero sense from a commercial perspective to entirely close down a revenue stream as DTG are doing.
I don't actually see anywhere where it says they've abandoned steam. Just because its not being actively worked on doesn't mean it has been abandoned.
Lots of people reading what they want to with this thread. Personally I can’t derive anything definite from anything said so far. Myself, I don’t care what happens to Steam in TSW. My point is that it’s currently quite broken. When it was launched, it was stated that improvements will come including manual firing. These improvements have completely failed to materialise, yet further Steam DLC was released. So I can quite understand people being upset. I hate the phrase ‘broken promises’, but it is a failure to deliver on DTG’s part and yet another reason to not trust a word that they say. With announced features for TSW4 still not out and launch bugs still not fixed for that. How are we supposed to believe anything anymore? Come on DTG. Fair enough if you decide not to develop more Steam DLC, but fix what’s already out. I love TSW, but it’s shameful the state of these products that we already paid for.
We are now moving away from what was being discussed into semantics over wording in the statement, which if you refer back to an earlier post i also covered, stating that DTG have chosen their wording carefully. Spirit of Steam was released on the 31st of May 2022. DTG announced on the 19th of May 2022 that while SoS would be released with an auto fireman, this would be resolved in a ‘future update’. Launch was 599 days ago, as of this morning (20th Jan 2024). You are as aware as I that DTG have stated from the launch of Spirit of Steam that the broken physics for steam locomotives would be worked on and resolved. There has already been an excessive delay in the update that DTG have said from before release would be forthcoming, and now DTG (DTG Alex) have stated on this very thread, and I quote directly “Currently its not something we are actively working on hence why it isn’t on the roadmap content”. i would suggest, and its clear whether fans of steam or not, that the TSW community have at least a majority opinion on this and as can be seen in this thread some are very unhappy indeed regarding the fact that the steam product was released in a broken state, promises were made that it would be resolved and yet here we are 599 days later with no resolution and the developer stating they are not currently working on it. 599 days, no update, no work being done - debate over whether that constitutes abandonment or not are pointless semantics. A delay of 599 days to fix a product is entirely unacceptable. I have covered what was originally discussed and the points raised in subsequent posts and while we may have a slight difference of opinion on some matters I believe it would be difficult for anyone to find any support from the community at large that the current state of affairs around the steam product is acceptable or reflects well on DTG. As the conversation is now starting to deviate and some of the points are moving towards tenous, I’ll bid you a good Saturday morning and crack on with getting wheels turning on some of these point and shoot steam locomotives
599 days? Wow. We have had some issues in tsw that have been plaguing this game for more than that that with no fix. DTG really know how to make a mess and not clean up after themselves.
Nah, it's not fair enough if they decide to make no more steam content. For me personally, that would be the start of putting the writing on the wall for TSW. DTG market TSW as the ultimate evolution of train simulation, you simply can't do this without including all three steam/diesel/electric traction groups, then you have even smaller sub-groups within those three. If you want to make the definitive train simulator though, then you need to at least cover those three traction bases. Otherwise, you're better off making a simulator based around a specific niche like Run8 does. Alex's statement doesn't say "we're abandoning steam", but it does give the impression that it is much too low on their priority ladder, when it should at least have the same care and attention as any modern content. If steam traction is proving too much for DTG, they really need to think about asking these interested third parties ,that Alex mentioned, for assistance with the core fundamentals. This whole "steam doesn't sell well" rumour doesn't sit right here because the problem isn't steam traction itself, it's the state in how the products have been released. TS Classic third parties have already proven this.
it might be an interesting exercise to look up the date the issue originates from and check the time expired, but then again it depends how bored you are on a Saturday afternoon
IMHO DTG have done the right thing in 'breaking cover' and making an announcement of sorts. Now, having made the biggest step, they need to go that little bit further and qualify, in more detail, what they actually mean. This could be done in the next Roadmap and could, more or less, clear this matter up once and for all. (When you think about it there aren't actually that many options open to them so this should be easier for them to do now). IMHO things sort of look like this. 1) Please confirm. No new DTG steam products (locos or routes) in the next 6 / 12 / 18 months? 2) Will there be any upgrades to existing DTG steam locos in the next 6 / 12 / 18 months? 3) Re Third Party Developers - How likely (scale 1-10) is it that a third party steam loco could be released in 2024? 4) Re Third Party Developers - Are there any plans to ask third parties to upgrade existing DTG steam models? 5) Unless the answers of 1-4 are all negative Could you always add a brief comment about Steam (and any progress) in each 2024 roadmap? If DTG address these 5 points (and "yes" I understand that they won't be able to go into great detail on some of the points) then that will go some way to mitigating the situation they now find themselves in re Steam. But steam is only part of the story. Perhaps now is time to verbally address some of the other issues that are starting to draw the ire of the community. (Formation Manager, Suspension, Instructions for the Editor, Bug Fixing to name just a few). After all silence is never the answer.
it was supposed to be the successor of TS, but the engine and such makes it still kinda difficult if I understand it correctly... so atm it is like TS is the more true to reality sim and TSW has more gentle learning curve while focusing mainly on the driving aspect above everything else, cutting other stuff sometimes... who knows what happens in the future TS is undergoing some optimisation which might make it running much more smoothly on newer machines, so we'll see then where things go for both... I just hope DTG eventually gets its s... back together in ways that are needed, cos TSW is still a great game despite its flaws and I keep my fingers crossed so it emerges better on the other end
and Ebula/Fahrplan/other countries' equivalent to that - aka detailed plan of the route/service which says what signal, speed, etc is where, for the driver to follow, which would add tons to immersion - I mean, they got GST display nicely done (even though it aint like that IRL, it still felt like yay, another display actually working, so the immersion instantly got a tiny bit better)
Don't get me wrong, I love playing TSW. When it does something right, the game is absolutely brilliant! I know it's a third party route but Blackpool Branches is a perfect example of how great TSW can be when quality is allowed to shine. It's just unfortunate to see many issues crop up, especially around steam locomotives which are my all-time favourite type of traction. We're getting nowhere near the full potential of the steam driving experience right now, and I only speak up because I want to see that happen.
well, it isnt that long since they really started opening things up for third parties, and it still aint nowhere near the level of TS where certain studios release specialized content - like RSSLO who do great job doing Austrian/Slovenian routes, stuff around Vienna and such... and I believe Just Trains are among those who did awesome RailJet model at almost training module level... so, I guess it will take time... either they aka DTG do it themselves or someone eventually steps up... I am kind of confident?
