Well routes from the last 10 (or 20 years) are also hard to make for DTG because getting licenses from operators is hard apparently so not sure what the plan is really.
The route had major bugs at release and Clinchfield as a fallen flag is pretty unknown, not just around the world but even in America.
One reason PFR might not have sold is that there was quite a lot of disappointment from what I recall with the scope of the route, I was one of them who was quite vocal about it. I only bought it when Matt hinted of his desire to see a loco pack, which is coming to fruition. Also some might have not bought it due to the lack of expansion of SOS and the slow fixes for the steam content. I find it hard to believe BR blue doesn't sell, I would be astonished if steam doesn't. Look at the steam developers for TSC, we will soon pretty much have the entire GWR fleet post 1930 and much of it before. Unless TSC has a lot different a demographic.
Now that I think about it, why invest development time in an enhanced suspension (nothing wrong with that per se), yet cut off all development to finishing steam traction development in Simugraph? (not to mention complete lack of AI sounds for steam). I have the feeling the suspension development is in fact an intern chained to a desk! Which leads to what does DTG actually spend its profits on (besides shareholders’ pockets); how much investment is made developing TSW, as opposed to just churning out routes?
It's a good question actually that I hadn't thought of myself. Given a certain amount of development time, will introducing enhanced suspension physics or working steam locos make more money for DTG? I'd bet heavily on the latter.
The technical development side rather than the building of content is probably a rather small team and they will be stretched very thinly. These will be the higher paid staff too and therefore tightly controlled. When what became to be known as add-ons manager was being developed that was one person full time for a year painstakingly changing a lot of aspects of the game architecture. The steam physics and manual firing or suspension physics won’t be as big a task as that but they will also be working on other things, even some features we don’t know about. I guess low revenue content that needs technical development time to enable it will be cut whereas work on suspension will improve all trains going forward so will be kept.
It's not like there have even been that many route releases by DTG recently. One of them was also of fairly bad quality (Maintalbahn). There was really just TSW4 itself and that, everything else was third parties.
There is pretty much zero focused investment in TSW core development and has never been. Every new shiny feature we have is the result of one of the employees experiementing in their free time or modders helping them. And for some reason they are happy to admit this themselves. They always say "someone was experiementing with this feature so we included it in this route". Sadly DTG, as a whole entity, seems to give up upon every obstacle they face. It is just passionate people working in their freetime who are keeping things progressing.
Usually after a new tsw release, there isn't much big content shortly after since majority of the time is spent on updating the core routes and in a few months, they go on their lengthy break. There may be smaller projects released here and there before the end of the year. They are also working on other dlc and projects in their free time. Content really only picks up in the next year and the few months of summer is focused on the summer release, getting that ready, advertising, etc
If TSW are to abandon Steam please can we have a Prairie Tank Engine first before it is abandoned and a release of the Severn Valley Railway and I will respect their decision to abandon steam if this is the case. Hopefully not, fingers crossed.
But contracted third parties are not using the public editor. They would be using the same editor that DTG uses.
From what I understand, Simugraph is just a system that lets you compose things in a drag-and-drop way to make a circuit like layout of simulation elements. If that is the case, there is no "core" you need, because you can just create any type of simulated engine from various elements. There are probably reused "common" elements to make things faster, but I don't think there is anything stopping you from creating something new from scratch.
Well, it’s rather disheartening to hear this after having been assured that manual firing was still coming. It seems our only hope for steam are now 3rd parties.
I feel like this update from Alex has caused more issues than its resolved? Hopefully they can sit down and give us something of substance on the roadmap? I feel like we deserve at least something even if its the token hold our hands up "We're sorry we messed up". Surely there has to be something because a lot of customers paid for SOS on the promise of manual firing among other things. Not forgetting the blood and custard mk1s which still aren't on and custom livery wagons which were a selling point that aren't in timetable yet.
At least it is out in the open and (like I said already) we know where we stand with it rather than being in a strange limbo situation.
I think it's quite a good time for DTG to 'rip the plaster off' so to speak. The Festival of Rail is coming up in 3ish weeks and when that happens it'll be all we talk about for a bit so as long as heads are kept down until then... From my side, I would say that the update adds clarity and is appreciated. By far the worst part of this is that fixes to steam functionality and physics were promised and have never turned up. Even to the point of actually knowing what is wrong in some areas (eg. the reverser curves on the Jubilee and 8F as Ed has detailed elsewhere), for some reason these quite basic errors aren't being patched. It's been left in a pretty disgraceful state and I think the player base has the right to feel burnt on this. There is simply no good reason that *known* issues with known fixes are being left to fester. Between this and the advertised TSW4 features (suspension, formation designer, editor that can cook content etc.) still missing nearly 5 months after launch... it smells bad. There doesn't appear to be any interest from DTG's side in patching up relations with the player base either. I've been around since the days of GWE and NTP but I don't think there's been a darker time to be a TSW player, even though the base game has finally reached a level that I would describe as essentially 'feature-complete'.
If there's one thing I've learnt from DTG, it's never buy anything from them if what they've promised in release, does not make it in release and you are told it will come later. My interest is waning in TSW, I mean, I haven't even delved into the VR, a year or two ago I'd of installed all the requirements and dived straight in, I just can't be bothered now and as much as I loved BPO, it does get boring seeing the same old MK2's, we really should of had some BR MK1's, MK2e/f, MK3's by now that could of layered into that route and others, TSW has been going for years.
Moral of the story… Never trust a single word DTG says. If it’s not a flat out lie to start with, the likelihood of what they say coming to fruition is extremely doubtful at best. You just have to make do with the slop they put out (despite paying very good money for it) or do without altogether.
I think early TSW 2 was worse. Pretty terrible DTG releases like the C40-8W, SEHS v1, GWB and Hamburg-Lübeck (and some would argue LGV) and terrible to abysmal third party releases like Isle of Wight, Arosa, Cane Creek), broken older DLC and DTG saying there would never be an editor after having showed off one before. Made me personally pretty much quit the game until early last year.
It was immediately obvious nothing was going on behind the scenes with regard to steam physics and manual firing when the Flying Scotsman released. If any steam loco was the one to launch full functionality it would have been that one but seemingly not a single improvement had been made or attempted. DTG are currently advertising for a software engineer so maybe someone left the company and left them a little short on folks who could do this. That could be separate from the decision not to work on steam going forwards if that is indeed what is happening. It’s not good form with a lot of players waiting patiently for promised improvements and functionality. We have been here before though with the promises.
Which is why it’s not a bad idea that DTG get in people who know steam engines to consult. A 3rd party content creator would be able to assist with a true simugraph implementation of Steam, in exchange for example, for fee waivers on the first DLCs.
Obviously, the implementation of adequate steam physics is best outsourced to a competent third party. Now, are these even interested in developing for TSW under DTG's egidium, with Steam taken another cut out of their returns? AFAIK, they all have their own webshop, sometimes even joined to spare on the inevitable expenses. Perhaps they rather like to remain independent from DTG's management etc?
Or maybe just acknowledging the fact that other devs/games can do it better and focusing on delivering what they are best in. You can't compete in all disciplines, maybe they have understood this. TSC's steam locos have become so advanced that every aspect is simulated in locos from Smokebox, BMG and VictoryWorks plus various other steam specialised 3rd parties in TSC.
Yes, you tend to get yourself into a situatuion like that if you keep lying and misleading customers over and over again for years.
I think on the community side of things, the TSW2 era was much better though. We had Sam running the community things, he was straight with the community and wasn't afraid to ask the tricky questions on our behalf. He was also good fun to watch on streams, especially when paired with Matt. We don't have anyone like that now, and all the streams/roadmaps feel more corporate than community driven as a result.
From what I hear it's still fairly lucrative to develop for TSW.... The total player numbers (with consoles) are higher than for TS1 by now.
It seems, maybe at Mr. Jackson's urging, they developed the technical skill to build SOS, PFR and FS ( however imperfectly ) but then were unable to follow through with the needed repairs and improvements to the locos. Maybe they lost some people who knew how to build/improve steam engines and were unable or unwilling to replace them. Whatever the reason for abandoning steam, it's clearly not a recent decision and it reminds one of the endless prevarication with TSW2 fixes before applying the inevitable coup de grace. You have to wonder when, if ever, DTG were going to make an official announcement about steam development. DTG Alex's rather nonchalant post seems almost accidental. The same fate may be happening to TSW3/4 fixes, even as we speak. Transparency is, I'm afraid, not DTG's long suit. Despite their protestations to the contrary, they play it pretty close to the vest.
I've been lurking on this forum ever since SoS was released, most interested to see how things would develop. Almost 20 years ago I did my own "market research" and concluded that investing in steam locomotive simulation was a sure way of losing the roof over my head. Sadly I think DTG has reached the same conclusion and are taking steps to secure their future. My efforts are still on Wayback Machine with most of the images missing (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/slsim/): The Covid days got me back in the shed to make a few additions, crude by today's standards but anyway, RIP steam locomotive simulation.
I don't understand why that would be the case, when plenty of other simulators have already done steam engines before. MSTS, Rail Simulator (now Train Simulator), Trainz, etc. And we have quite a few new contenders as well, like Railroader or Century of Steam. The latter seems to be the most realistic so far, with proper steambox simulation, etc. So I don't really believe it when someone tries the "it can't be financially done" excuse. But I will have to say, your video seems really interesting! Is it a self-developed simulation engine? Looks pretty good. Not too bad graphics, love how the tracks look and blend in with the terrain properly. Also the whole concept of african railways is nice.
I think this new dtg attitude has very much put a nail in the coffin. I haven't got TSW4 yet. Waiting to see if a BPO starter pack comes out as I don't particularly want to invest much soley in DTG right now. But the WSR update looks interesting despite the unfortunate state and seemingly permenant state of the steam locomotives? The PFR pack looks interesting as well and I'd like to support Devs (like JT) that are working on older traction and putting care and attention in what they do.
Think I remember this one. Way ahead of it's time but sadly never really got beyond the tech demo. Think the train orbited an endless loop of track, there was also a diesel loco IIRC? However as noted above steam simulation done properly has not exactly been a dud.
I think DTG has to shift a large volume on day one or close to it, I guess the modern EMU crowd seem to be the market focus regardless of Railway enthusiasm for other things elsewhere. Low hanging fruit is the order of the day...
I've been paying the bills with Victory Works for a decade now, and I believe Kris at CW has been doing the same... so I call hogwash. Sorry. SoS - a huge route with an empty timetable, broken audio and a steam simulation that isn't even as good as the Train Simulator base (without scripting) from 16 years ago PF - a route from nowhere to nowhere with the same 2 locos from SoS plus one more, still with the same poor physics. The conversation for this route didn't seem to be "What can we make that people want?, it appeared to be, What can we make that reuses lots from SoS and requires the least effort?" Scotsman - an iconic loco, somehow worse physics(!) and still no simulation features that were promised to come to SoS (boiler management and stoking) And with that, they quit "Steam doesn't sell" "BR Blue doesn't sell" "XYZ doesn't sell" Do you know what doesn't sell? Buggy, ill-conceived products and broken promises.
This is just my 2 cents, Steam and BR blue probably doesn't sell well because the console kiddies want all the new fancy modern excrement, and because they are the majority, those like myself who like the BR era content suffer, I'd love to see some early 90s pre privatisation BR routes.
The state of TSW steam and its potential future really make me hope Simrail's Ty2 gets a stellar debut for a couple of reasons: - to show how it can be done - to demonstrate that steam is perhaps still popular with gamers - to potentially put severe pressure on DTG It is probably the best loco they could've picked, despite its size relatively simple as it was a Kriegslokomotive (simplified wartime construction). Thousands of them were produced, and after the war, they ended up pretty much everywhere in Europe, including France, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Russia, even Turkey, and Norway. Succeeding with such a loco (and polishing the steam physics before making more) could mean an easy addition to pretty much any route they make, modern or old. Ty2 is currently estimated to arrive within the next three months. Hopefully, it isn't rushed and turns out the way it should. Not left in the dust for 600+ days. (also, this might be subjective, but it's a lovely loco, with no fancy streamlining, it is large, yet straightforward looking )
I think it's about time to drop the "console kiddies" insult. Intelligent adults use games consoles – as well as highly intelligent children.
This is the condescending attitude again, there is no need for it it just creates hostility and divides the community. You don't have to be a console user, or a "kiddie" to not enjoy diesel/steam content. Just like you don't have to be old and on a PC to like Steam locos. People like what they like, and they are entitled to like what they like. Don't belittle for it.
I’m a console ‘kiddie’ and I like BR Blue. I don’t like steam (primarily because DTG have not done it any justice in TSW).
Pretty sure a console release is on their new road map. That's the plan. But so was the editor, which still isn't available. So let's see if that's really gonna happen.
