The Birmingham New Street - Bromsgrove table updated with that run by matt#4801 : Looking at the the run by comparison to my most recent run, it appears the main difference was in that more conservative start out of New Street which Matt mentioned. After that, the runs were very similar.
I do feel that is where I lost the time, Kings Norton and then at the beginning not being aggressive enough. I will bear that in mind if/when I give that one another crack and looking back I think the safeties were blowing off for about a third to half of the descent and will show more aggression on that climb. Thanks I did try taking a couple of others but they just didn't look right, and then after I took this screenshot I just forgot to take more! Pleased you like it though. Also one more thing I will say is I think I got my time for Blackwell mixed up a bit as looking at the table that just doesn't match up right. I don't think we will ever know for sure as my notes on that run were done on a small piece of scrap paper and my handwriting isn't great normally!
Thanks for the very interesting account, Lamplight. It looks as if my run was a bit quicker between Rowsley and Bakewell, but apart from that the times were very similar. I'm still not sure about the effect of warming up the loco. I did some tests on Huddersfield-Standedge a while ago to see whether I could find a way to climb it more quickly, and I did it by starting each run at Huddersfield. The performance of the loco when starting cold was identical to my experiences when starting from Leeds, despite then having 'warmed it up' by running between Leeds and Huddersfield. On the other hand, the theoretical analysis by DominusEdwardius sounded very convincing, so who knows! In terms of my loss of boiler pressure after Hassop, this was a result of me opening up the regulator/cut-off to try to make maximum use of the boiler pressure before the Millers Dale call. It looks as if that did get me through Monsal Dale a bit faster, although I lost the time again with poor braking into Millers Dale! Stunning pictures once again. I love the one with the two Jubilees at Ambergate, and the lighting on the last one on the level crossing is superb!
Ah yes, I'm guessing it was 08:15:17 rather than 08:16:17 at Blackwell (although it's not the easiest place to locate anyway, given that the station isn't there any more!) I'll correct it on the sheet for next time I post it.
Tried 11.40 dep Liverpool Lime Street-Crewe. This was my first go with manual firing with both dampers at 25%, the Jubilee was 45681 Aboukir with 10 mk1s. Departing Lime Street at 11.40 I used reg 44 cutoff 22 for most of the climb. After passing Edge Hill station the next climb at 1in93 was topped with a minimum of 26mph. Through Sefton Park at 41mph 11.48, with reg 50 cutoff 18. West Allerton 56mph at 11.51 reg 25 cutoff 16. Down the 1in305 with a max 70mph. Then slowing for the 55mph restriction I overdid the braking, and speed dropped to 49mph. The 49mph was not ideal for the climb towards Runcorn, the minimum speed in the climb was 37mph. Arrival at Runcorn was 12.01 and 45 secs , as the passengers boarded the safetys lifted. Departing Runcorn at 12.03 the brakes were on slightly longer than they should of been, the small ejector had been closed accidentally when slowing for the station. On the climb from Runcorn I used reg 60 cutoff 20 up the 1in115- 1in100, maintaining 20mph untill the gradient eased. Running downhill I slowed to 50mph for the next 55mph restriction. Speed fell on the 1in320 to 46mph. After a section of level track, the next climb at 1in140 I used reg 35 and cutoff 17 holding 55mph. Now only a couple of miles from Crewe I eased the reg to 10 cutoff 17 and then closed the reg for the final mile, and the safetys lifted just before Crewe. I arrived at Crewe at 12.35. Completed the service in 55 minutes. There were a few errors in the run with slowing too much for a couple of speed restrictions, but ok for a first try.
My level of experience is "Not even worthy of L plates yet" So no apologies needed as you can't possibly offend me. I'll take your advice, and also crib a bit from other people's runs, and see if I can do a bit better. Watch this space
spikeyorks, happy to see you here and great work on the screenshots! I particularly enjoy the last one, the extreme long shot of the train. Oh, we will Just adding some of the basic operations to lcyrrjp’s explanations to help you along in case you don’t know You’re working with vacuum brakes, which take a long time to either apply or release. To monitor the brake status, you have a pressure gauge to the upper right of you in the cab going from 0 (fully applied) to 21 (fully released). The combination brake you’re using is a type of manually lapped brake - similar but not the same as the Class 101 for example. That means putting the combination brake lever to say 12% does not mean a 12% brake application but is applying the brakes at a rate of 12%. It’s like a water tap. To release the brakes, you need to restore the vacuum by means of the small/large ejector. The small one is good to counter the leaks in the system, while the large one is good to release the brakes after an application. Unlike the Class 101, you don’t have a ‘hold’ position for the brakes. You can only apply or release the brakes, but there is a way to make them easier to use. If you close the small ejector and open the large ejector to 6%, the system will pretty much hold the pressure you set for you in the ‘off’ position of the brake lever. Apply the brakes to the desired level with the pressure gauge and return the lever to ‘off’, which will hold the brake pressure until you mess with the ejector again. Hope this helps The thing is, I’m pretty sure that the fire warmth does have an effect based on the 4F. I played around with her some more (no formal testing, just trying what she can do a bit) and it is true that her performance tapers out around 40-50mph, which means she doesn’t completely outperform the 8F on all levels but definitely steams a lot better. It’s my impression though based on the findings between the two of us that we’re not really warming the loco up a lot. DominusEdwardius did say that warming the locos up takes too long in TSW and at least for my test, I doubt that 10min of driving from Ambergate to Matlock has any palpable effect. Long story short, I don’t want to throw out fire temperature as an effect, but it’s probably safe to mostly disregard it for our runs. Ah, ok. I misunderstood your report then. Sorry about that! In which case I retract my previous statements and my loco was not steaming better at all. Fantastic work on your first run! You matched the timetable on point It’s been a long time since I’ve run SoS in this direction, I should give it another go as well
Great run, Andy. Getting the braking for the speed restrictions right is especially difficult on the gradients. I particularly like the shot of 45681 arriving at Crewe in heavy rain.
Thanks lycyrrip Those are just shots off the screen taken with my phone, when I captured them on screenshot during the run. TSW3 on PS4 hasn't got the proper photo mode. I tried the 8F on the ICI hoppers banked by the 4F, it was quite slow in manual firing mode. But must of been a glitch as the firebox doors closed by themselves and I got the blue screen.
Yes, it’s annoying when that happens. The firebox doors can close by themselves, even in manual firing mode. My experience is that if you open the firebox doors they generally stay open, but if the fireman opens them then they’ll close again. So if you see the firebox doors open at the start, close them and re-open them. I’m not certain that is right, but it seems to be in my experience.
I made a second attempt at Lamplight's Peak Forest challenge this evening. 45681 Aboukir (apparently named after a naval vessel, which in turn was named after a town in Egypt) took charge of 8 mk1s, and we prepared for departure in sunshine, but with some slightly ominous looking storm clouds gathering to the North. On departure I struggled to release the brake and this affected initial acceleration, meaning that although we had a reasonable run through Darley Dale - touching 52mph - we dropped 17 seconds to Rowsley compared to my previous run with 45632 'Tonga'. After that the climb begins, and we conserved pressure on the initial stages, passing Bakewell at 31mph and then gradually opening up the cut-off and regulator to maintain 28-29mph until the dip after Headstone Tunnel got us up to 43mph through Monsal Dale. It was on this section that the threatened rain arrived, and we ploughed on into the gloom, my hand on the regulator to catch any slip. Despite the weather, we'd got a little time back - now only 10 seconds behind Tonga, and I opened up to use the last of the boiler pressure before braking for Miller's Dale. This effort - and better braking than on my previous attempt - made up further time, and got me into Miller's Dale 13 seconds to the good, but with boiler pressure lower. As a result, pressure was not fully recovered by departure time - 205psi showing on the dial as I released the brake and opened the regulator. In the now torrential rain, with speed not yet at 10mph, the loco slipped on the wet rail, I closed the regulator while she recovered her footing, then eased it open again and we struggled forward towards the shelter of Chee Tor Tunnel. On my previous run I felt I'd used up too much steam, too early on this section, meaning the final part of the climb was slow and my speed at the summit just 20mph. This time I was determined to maintain steam, and we held a steady 24mph up the 1 in 90 with pressure maintained above 200psi. At Tunstead box I made my move, opened up the regulator and cut-off to 65/24 and we accelerated to 25, then 26 mph and held it there for the next mile. Pressure was now dropping quickly however, and it took its toll. I continued to open up the cut-off but it wasn't enough, and speed dropped away to 22mph at the summit, by which time we were at 35% cut-off and the regulator wide open, with pressure down to 120 psi. The climb had been over half-a-minute slower than my previous attempt, and the time gained to Miller's Dale was gone. After that, it was a standard downhill run - the rain eased off, and we roared through Chapel at 72mph, touched 80mph beyond and went through Chinley at 78mph at 11:30:25 - 6 minutes down on schedule and 16 seconds slower than my previous attempt. This was another enjoyable run, but timing-wise I was disappointed. The difficulties releasing the brake at Matlock (I use a RailDriver, and occasionally it needs a bit of jiggling of the brake handle to get it right - probably not unlike the real thing!) cost me time which I didn't make up until the section from Monsal Dale to Miller's Dale, where I gained quite a chunk of time by working the loco harder prior to the Miller's Dale call. While a success of sorts, this meant my boiler pressure did not recover fully by departure time and that - combined with some slipping - cost me to Peak Forest, and my chance was gone. I'm still confident there's a bit of time to be gained on this run. I'm intrigued by the climb from Miller's Dale to Peak Forest. My first go at it - a determined start resulting in a loss of pressure and a long slog for the last few miles and just 20mph over the summit - did not feel like a successful approach, but it is actually - I think - the best time to date on that section. This time I could have done better by sticking at 24mph and preserving pressure longer, opening up only for the last mile. That would have taken me over the summit at 26mph. Whether that would have gained me half-a-minute, though, I'm not convinced. Perhaps this is a section where accelerating hard initially actually pays off, despite meaning a slower speed at the summit. It's an approach I've never really been able to pull off in the way matt#4801 does it, though. Perhaps he, or someone else, can make a better go of it than I did.
I don't want to throw out any spoilers but I did this run yesterday evening and used this method up that climb and, well, like I say no spoilers as I have already started my write up and will have it done for tomorrow hopefully. It should solve this little hypothesis as I suppose you could call it.
Great job at chipping away some time even if the end result was (understandably) disappointing for you. Some very interesting thoughts here as well. It’s not just the Peak Forest climb that intrigues me, but the entire run, actually. I really should have another go at it since I can’t seem to get a proper grip on this one. The Peak Forrest climb in particular is brutal though. I have to admit that I got distracted again by some freight on Peak Forrest and I can especially understand what a handicap the rain must have been for you. I ‘simulated’ a shift in the limestone traffic in snow. Probably because TSW doesn’t do it right, one of my last things to do was starting a loaded 12 hopper train with the 8F in the snow without a banker on the 1.1% gradient (the 4F only attaches later). That was quite the experience and I’m sure my sand was depleted by the time we reached Peak Forrest I’ll join the others - I’m most excited to hear what you’ve been cooking up
Here we go then I shall start from the beginning and not ruin the surprise with the table up front! Matlock to Chinley, Jubilee 45681 'Aboukir' + 8 MKIs - Attempt 1: I spawned on foot at Matlock at 11:40 in time to prepare the train and not have a massive rush in the first couple of minutes, however like Lamplight mentioned (I believe it were anyway) I had to wait for the express to pass so I had a hectic couple of minutes uncoupling the coaches and all the pre- departure malarkey. Luckily departure were swift and on time at 10:46 with me using the speed up quick tactics initially before easing back earlier than usual due to the impending steep, continuous climbs ahead. This meant I went steaming through the lovely station of Darley Dale at 10:49.50 with pressure at 200PSI and speed at 47MPH and this is roughly where I held it, only reaching 50 before the sidings at Rowsley, to allow pressure to climb back up. The cruise round the Rowsley bend were a comfortable, if a bit loud with the safeties, one at 44MPH, however this were very much the calm before the storm! Out of Rowsley hitting the steep climb I had set up with my regulator at 26% and cut-off at 21% to try and hold the speed above that crucial 30MPH mark, however for some reason the Jub just did not agree with this causing the pressure to drop and me have to try various different combinations up the hill to try and deliver as much power and generate as much steam as possible. Due to this I passed Bakewell at 10:58.12 with the speed down to 32MPH and the pressure at 190PSI. I continued to faff about with the regulator and cut off until I settled with 28/22 about a train length past the Bakewell goods shed which I maintained through Hassop and up to Great Longstone having to settle for holding at 27/28MPH and 190-200PSI. As I went through Great Longstone I thought sod it and gave it a bit more beans with a 47/22 combination which worked relatively well, with pressure stabilising and speed getting to 29MPH before Headstone Tunnel at 11:04.19 which itself were a nice break from climbing, though we had far from finished there! I past Monsal Dale at 11:05.39 with 40MPH showing on the virtual speedo and 210PSI sitting in front of me. Initially on this section of uphill I went for 29/22 however I changed my mind and went for 38/21 as I progressed, though this made as much difference to things as me singing a song and doing a special dance would have. Unlike my actual first attempt of this run, which I weren't going to mention but now have, I came to a halt with the wheels not turning at exactly 11:11 with pressure at 210PSI. After a minute of being intensely watched by a strange woman, I told my mrs I had to carry on with this challenge and set off at 11:12 with only a newspaper round the back of my head to complain about. As I alluded to above I went with the tactic of get the speed up quick and hold it as close to there as possible. The speed I decided to aim for were 25MPH as I thought that if I got there quick enough and held it my average speed would give a more than satisfactory climb. And so once at 25 MPH I adjusted to 33/22 which kept the pressure steady and took me to 27 before it started to settle out and drop to 25MPH. As I approached Tunstead SB I changed this to a 42/21 which started to build the pressure from about 190 odd up and would hold the speed at 24 until about a train length past Great Rocks Jn SB where with pressure at 205PSI I changed for a very aggressive 75/24 combination which took me through Peak Forest at 11:22.50 with 180PSI and going 27MPH. From here to Chinley I knew all the hard work were done so I adjusted to 42/16 through the tunnel fanning the brakes to keep within the 50MPH PSR through it before opening it up on approach to Chapel-en-le-Frith (I can't help myself but say this strangely with a very Italian sounding accent: like chApel En le fRIth plus the Italian accent) which I passed at 11:27.26 doing 71MPH. Then after putting my spaghetti and mozzarella back in the cupboard I prepared to give her the full beans once I passed that 80 sign meaning I passed through Chinley at exactly 11:29 going 80MPH with the kettle being as pressurised as a shook up can of pop. So not a bad run by any means but still 5 down on the schedule and various places which could take improvements, and I am sure someone will get there at one point but getting the best out of both of the two big climbs really is going to be a difficult one, though the stop at Millers Dale does give some recovery time. If I were going to do this again I think I would try and hold closer to 30 on the climb to Peak Forest as I do think there would have been enough pressure to do so but that 1:90 is still a real killer. I hope the wait were worth it for both James and Mr(s) Paice (Edit: and Lamplight- sorry you must have put that up after I started typing!) and does sort of show that a burst of speed before the climb and then holding it does have a clear impact, though I wouldn't have thought the rain on your run would make it the most equal of comparisons in history. Here is the table (do let me know if there are any clear mistakes as in previous attempts I have made blatant errors!): And of course I couldn't forget the photographs! Spoiler: You know what's here!
Holy moly, matt#4801! Oh boy did you deliver I applaud your decision to keep the table for the end, it certainly worked on me! We appreciate your sacrifice Good heavens! That read like an action movie to me Insane what you managed to get out of the old girl here. Truly, hats off. What a climb… True. That is the major thing with this challenge. Matlock - Rowsley and Peak Forest - Chinley are just short stretches with little possibility for different approaches. Apart from those, it’s almost exclusively a 1% or even 1.1% climb. I feel like your run getting to the 5 minute mark outside of the schedule is already a major step up. Let’s not forget that you’re within 20 seconds of our log on a 1.1% climb(!): Our driver needed 10 and a half minutes for Millers Dale - Peak Forest and you took 10 minutes 50 seconds. Speaking of which… That would have you pretty much match our real log exactly. Lastly, I already told you that I love the de-saturated shots and these are no different. I really enjoy these two: There’s just something about these (extreme) long shots of steam engines in the countryside that captures the imagination.
These write-ups genuinely make me want to purchase this route. Well done. I'm just really annoyed at them scrapping any realistic steam development. Maybe when the br green diesel pack comes out...
I am glad you approve, I did think the tension would be built a bit more! If I ever get the sack I may well go into film writing then! Thanks though mate, it were really enjoyable too, with the chuffing sounding good which is rare for TSW. Perhaps one of the most immersive steam moments I have had in the game. As the real life run proves there is more to be had though. I think once one of us cracks that first climb, I would say keeping a constant 32-33 may well be enough, and combine it with this run (plus the extra aggression) up to Peak Forest and we may get our first near enough on time run. It is difficult as like you say a lot of the time you are on 1:100 to 1:90 climbs so it is not an easy balancing act. I am rather pleased with the Peak Forest section I must admit. I do agree steam trains along a bank from a distance is one of the most beautiful sights both in a picture and real life. There is just something so glamourous about them. I am going to try and sneak another attempt in tomorrow evening so will be sure to report as this is my favourite one of these challenges yet! Thanks for finding it mate!
Peak Forest is a really good route mate, with the only drawback being the steam locos, which are seemingly not going to be improved on, and lack of BR Green. Over half the amount of miles I have driven the route for have been in the class 45 and it really is enjoyable. EDIT: I should also add the start and end points are strange which is another negative for the route.
a.paice, I’m with matt#4801 here. If you get the chance - in a sale maybe or when the diesel pack comes, … - PFR is brilliant. It’s certainly held back by some stuff such as the physics, the incomplete timetable and lack of diesels for a transition era route, but it’s still amazing. The route itself looks awesome, shunting with the 4F is great fun despite the physics. Also, I don’t know if this’ll work for anybody but me, but I feel like there’s an irresistible charm to (virtually) exploring a railway that doesn’t really exist anymore in the same way.
That is another good point you make. This area has always been a regular place for us to go on holiday and so it is nice to be able to see it how it were rather than the pathways, heritage line, rural branch and goods only lines much of the route is today. There is a certain charm about this; I can certainly agree.
Fantastic run, Matt. You’re running as far as Millers Dale was similar to my best effort, but you completed the climb from Millers Dale to Peak Forest almost a minute quicker - i.e. nearly a 10% improvement, which is huge. As Lamplight point out, it puts you very close indeed to the 1958 log, which is particularly satisfying as our perception has always been that our ‘25% dampers’ Jubilee can’t match the real thing on slow climbs. This suggests it’s actually very close, if driven in the right way. I must admit, I still haven’t quite understood what ‘the right way’ is, but then, that’s part of the fun of steam. If it was just a question of ‘someone gives you the numbers, and you copy’ then that would be less interesting. As it is, we can give each other clues (such as regulator and cut-off positions) but the precise timing of adjustments in relation to position on the route and boiler pressure is critical, meaning there’s still a lot to do to reproduce a good run (I’ve gone back to try to do what you did on Leeds - Marsden for example, and I still can’t do it!) Regarding the Millers Dale - Peak Forest climb, it looks as if ‘Hardy’ in 1958 held 28mph up the 1 in 90, so you’re just a couple of mph off. As you say, the next stage is to close the gap to the 1958 run on the Rowsley - Millers Dale section in the same way. We’re still losing about 3 minutes there. I love the pictures, once again. Those ones from down the embankments are magnificent, but I also particularly like the one from the footbridge - the composition is perfect.
Thanks mate, yes I think there were only a couple of seconds difference in some places, as I remember without looking. We are getting very close with this run and I am sure within the next week we will have an on time pass through Chinley. I actually think the method does come second to timing because I did another run this morning using the same methods (plus or minus a few percent on the regulator) but my adjustment to the 'climbing combination' at Rowsley were too late which meant I had lost speed before the climb began and I were 8 down at millers Dale only holding about 20 MPH at Headstone tunnel and pressure right down to 130 or 140 PSI on the climb. Sadly I had to abort the run just after Peak Forest, as I had a football game to go and manage, but that were an appalling climb to not getting over 20 MPH, though the blame here goes on the pressure still being so low. I have just got back from football and am going to give it another crack so hopefully I'll have something a bit more positive to take out of it. I am going to try and focus on that Rowsley to Millers Dale section but we'll see how it goes. Thanks for the comments on the pictures, like Lamplight said there is something amazing about seeing kettles gliding along the banks. I wish the invisible walls were just slightly further out in some places to get more like this. Glad you like the footbridge one- I can't quite make my mind up on it if I am honest.
Hi all. I notice Edinburgh-Glasgow’s on offer in the Steam sale. I’ve never bought it before, having no interest in the EMU which operates all the services, but I was wondering about getting it to create a steam challenge - I'd imagine I’ll be able to find a schedule somewhere. Would any of you have any interest in that? Does anyone else have this route? Thanks.
In honesty it is not the best route out there, though that mostly lay on the nearly-as-shambolic-as-the-WCL150, EMU included rather than the environment. I would certainly like to see a challenge for the route, but obviously it depends on whether others have it and assuming a jubilee has covered the route. Actually I still owe a report on my PFR run I did at the start of the week, though looking at the time I don't think I'll be getting that done tonight!
I’m all for new challenges, but I don’t own Edinburgh-Glasgow and - different to some of the other routes we discussed - don’t plan on picking it up. Looking forward to it once you get around to it. I actually had another go on PFR as well before the WSR update, but I won’t be reporting back on that one. All I’ll say is: It was a late night attempt and ended up being my worst one yet. I’ll have to try again when I’ve got some proper time to devote to it.
A new challenge: Blackpool North - Preston The Blackpool route is, in my view, the best in TSW. Although, by the time the route is set, the Blackpool South and Ormskirk lines had changed beyond all recognition since the days of steam, the Blackpool North line had not. With the route being set in the 80s, on a line which had experienced little modernisation at that time, it does not take too great a leap of imagination to take yourself back to the 60s and the later days of steam. Earlier in the thread I gave an account of a Down run with the 8F on a railtour included in the route. This was enjoyable, but with gentle timings, not a great challenge. I therefore set about looking for something different. Once Blackpool Central station closed in 1964, the majority of Manchester and London services ran - not from Blackpool North, as you might now expect - but from Blackpool South. There were, however, a few through trains each day from Blackpool North, and furthermore, Jubilees were common on these services. In the Summer 1965 timetable, one such service was the 09:00 Blackpool North - Manchester Victoria. Its schedule as far as Preston was as follows: A search through some photographs indicates that 8 vehicles was a normal load for a Jubilee on Manchester services at the time. So that's the challenge - achieve the above schedule, with a Jubilee + 8 mk1s, using no more than 25% dampers. There is no dwell time shown at Layton, but I've worked on the assumption it's 1 minute (with 8 slam door coaches it would be difficult to regularly achieve a dwell time less than that). To set up the train in Free Roam, select a Jubilee + 10 mk1s then go back and uncouple then delete the rear 2 coaches (unless your attempt is after the Formation Editor has arrived, which may make it easier). As well as your chosen platform in Preston, you need to select the Up platform at Kirkham & Wesham as a waypoint, so that you're not routed via the avoiding lines. The gradients on the route seem inconsequential when driving a 142, but, as so often, with steam they suddenly take on a new significance. The profile is taken from 'Gradients of the British Mainline Railways' by Ian Allan. Note it is different profiles either side of Poulton - the actual mileage is just short of 18 miles. As you can see, there is a descent to Layton where (unlike the other calls) you need to put the loco just beyond the platform end to get all 8 coaches on the platform - not easy, given the steep final gradient into the station. The descent continues to Poulton, but a mile after departing you have 4 miles of almost continuous climbing - your speed here will be critical - before a descent into Kirkham & Wesham. After that gradients are gentler, and there's the opportunity for some higher speed running before Preston. This challenge is quite different to most, in that there are frequent stops, and you can be more aggressive in your acceleration, knowing the next opportunity to re-build steam pressure is never far away. Quite how aggressive, is for you to work out, but will be the key to success. 32 minutes for the 18 miles with 3 stops and the multiple speed restrictions on the route, makes it far from a simple task. If you decide to give it a go, please post here and tell us about your run. Good luck. 45679 'Armada' arrives at Preston on a Blackpool North - Manchester Victoria service. Photo by Ben Brooksbank.
My first attempt at the 0900 from Blackpool N was with 45723 'Impregnable' and the standard 8 mk1s, on a warm and cloudless summer morning. The start out of Blackpool is slow, but once clear of the 15mph we accelerated quite quickly on the falling gradient and touched 37mph before the brakes came on for Layton. We arrived a minute late and I was immediately aware of how hard I needed to work the loco if I was to keep these timings. Departing from Layton I therefore used higher cut-offs for longer - aware that this was another short dash to Poulton - before braking for the junction with the Fleetwood line, and we made up a few seconds on this section. Unfortunately a slightly extended dwell time meant we were over a minute late departing, and I knew that on this longer section with the main climb ahead, I needed to be more careful with pressure in the early stages. On the initial level section we got up to 47mph and I settled for 48% regulator and 21% cut-off which gave me enough power to maintain that speed all the way to the summit. Once over the other side I sighted the Kirkham distant at caution, and applied the brakes. The home signal came off for the diverging route into the platforms and, after the painfully slow approach through the pointwork, we rolled to a stand in the platform with a few more seconds lost. By the time we got away from Kirkham we were one-and-three-quarter minutes late and needed to take full advantage of the faster section to Preston. After the initial acceleration I used 46% regulator and 21% cut-off and we went through Salwick at 48mph. Boiler pressure was dropping but speed continued to rise steadily and the short downward gradient after Lea Road took us to a maximum of 58mph, before I sighted the church tower ahead and shut off for the approach to Preston. Arrival was 1m 24secs late - a little time made up on the final section, but not nearly enough. Nearly 30 seconds of the deficit was in extended dwell times, but that still leaves over a minute to be found in running, which may not be easy on this comparatively short run. As you can see, I used cut-off and regulator settings which we would not normally employ on the long slogs of Peak Forest or over the Pennines, as they cause pressure to fall too fast. However, with the next station never too far away these short bursts of power are possible on this run, and if anything I was probably a little too conservative, causing the safety valves to lift at most of the stations. That rising gradient after Poulton will also be critical, and I think we're going to need to improve on my 47mph climb if we're to reach Preston on time. This was an enjoyable run on a beautifully built route, and I look forward to trying it again, and seeing how others get on.
So, I was planning on having another bit of fun on WSR tonight but when I saw this prompt, I got giddy. I'm not admitting defeat on PFR, but as I said, I need to have some proper time for that whereas this felt like something fresh I could just have a quick go at. It was good fun, but rather in the vein of MML instead of PFR for those who attempted or followed both challenges. Join me on 45684 Jutland in a bit of imaginary Plandampf in the 80s. To address the elephant in the room, yes, the schedule is not actually that hard to match overall as my first attempt already pulled into Preston pretty much on time. What I can say overall though is that particularly for the first two stops, you not only need to accelerate aggressively but also brake aggressively - much more so than I'm used to from my other runs. Starting off in Blackpool (North), I was relieved to see that the pacer the signaller had let through in front of me had enough time to get some distance that it didn't hinder me at all. I used various high regulator combinations with the cut-off at 25 or 23 to get some decent acceleration just about hitting 30mph before having to brake for Layton. I didn't stick to a strict 1 minute stop since the schedule doesn't explicitly call for it. Releasing the brakes and getting set up to go took long enough that I set off when I was ready. Out of Layton, I initially gave her the beans with 50 on the cut-off, which the old girl didn't like at all and she pushed me with some wheel slip. I think this was the first time I got wheel slip in good weather without intentionally provoking it. Guess that's something off the steam driver bucket list. I wound the cut-off back to 20 but realised I should be more aggressive and wound her to 25 instead. Highest speed I reached before Poulton-le-Fylde was around 42mph, which was when I had to brake hard for the upcoming speed restrictions pulling into the station. Leaving Poulton-le-Fylde, I figured the gentle gradients were close enough to a flat main line and I just stuck her into 29 regulator with 19 on the cut-off. My speed was quite steady in the high 40s just touching 50 when I had to brake for the speed restrictions into Kirkham & Wesham. Figuring I should pull out of stations a tad more aggressively in general, I started my train again with 40 on the regulator and the cut-off reading 22 until the boiler pressure dropped to about 200psi, which is when I switched back to the trusty 29/19 described before. I left her running like that all the way to the road construction site outside of Preston. My highest speed was something like 56mph, I think, but I failed to note that down. With that, I pulled into Preston pretty comfortable with my timing even though I had been a tad late before. Despite the run being rather uneventful, I still had a great time. While I enjoy the hard nuts we tackle here, there's also something very soothing about these easier runs that just give you a great driving experience. It was also interesting for me to try driving aggressively since I usually drive in a more conservative manner (or try to, at least). Spoiler: Colours? Here? No way! As a bit of a break in tradition for me, I've brought some colour pictures as well this time. The morning golden hour was just too good, so I sacrificed some colour film for you 45684 Jutland is picking up speed on her way to Kirkham & Wesham with the warm sunlight. Shortly before Preston, the smoke box catches the golden sunlight beautifully as the old girl leans into the curve. My attempt at recreating Brooksbank's picture in TSW. Not at all accurate given the differences in the route and the fact that I didn't figure out the correct platform, but I like these sorts of comparison shots. No longer a common sight from the café, but a glimpse of what once was.
Now we're even filing reports at the same time! I find it interesting how we got very similar timings and even speeds with somewhat different approaches. After the initial suburban stops, I treated the run rather casually just sitting at 29/19 and it doesn't seem like that gave me much of a disadvantage. My climb to Kirkham was also sitting at 47mph and speed was (incredibly slowly) still rising. I'm very curious to hear your thoughts on these differences. Fascinating! Lovely work on the screenshots too. That armchair looks perfect for train spotting The meadows with the (almost) abandoned station serve as a nice setting for the steam loco. I like your new table as well - lovely idea to make it look like the original schedule we're working with Agreed. It was a very nice excuse to get back on BPO after I stood WSR up tonight.
Thanks Lamplight, a really interesting first attempt. Our point-to-point times between stations were remarkably similar and, as you say, achieved in quite different ways. It may be that - after the first two very short dashes as far as Poulton - the second two sections are long enough that maintaining boiler pressure remains important. I plan to try a run tonight and still intend on being more aggressive, but if that doesn't work I'll need to re-think. Although, as you say, this doesn't necessarily look as if it will be the toughest of our challenges, on your run 'Jutland' still dropped 1min 18secs in running, making some of it up in dwell times (admittedly I'm sticking to the principle that all stations are a 1 minute booked dwell time, even if Layton doesn't specify). With only 29 minutes of actual running time in total, I think that 1min 18secs may still be quite tricky to find. I forgot to mention that I also experienced wheelslip on a dry rail. I suppose it's a result of us trying to make fast starts, when usually we're focussed on getting away without killing the boiler pressure. I suspect this run would be noticeably more difficult on a wet rail - I may give that a try once we've achieved the schedule in the dry. I love your pictures. The way the light catches the front of the loco in that second one is superb, and it's a great idea to try to re-create Brooksbank's picture at Preston. Incidentally, the headcode being chalked on the smokebox door is something I hadn't come across before but which I saw in a lot of photos while researching this run, particularly on Up trains from Blackpool North. It looks as if it was the practice there for some reason.
…which is why I think our runs are pretty much identical. If you put together the times I didn’t stay for a minute, I’d probably arrive at Preston same as you if not even a little slower. I mostly eyeball the stay times if I’m late because that feels more immersive to me but that’s why I try to clearly document my arrival and departure times. I don’t want to give any false impression of saved time when in reality I just had the guard shove the passengers in while the steam chest was already filling True. There’s just not much runtime to our run (pardon the pun) so any savings will be hard to come by. When I did my run, I didn’t have any section that made me feel like I was massively off mark, so I reckon this might be another situation like the 11-coach NTP railtour, where we mostly chipped away seconds. Thank you I looked the Brooksbank picture up and a kind internet user pointed out that the train in the picture pulled into the old platform 2. With the help of an old map, I confirmed my suspicion that by the time of BPO, it had been rebuild into the post/parcels(?) platform. Recreating the shot in TSW properly might give a nice before/after effect. I’ll be honest, nailing that screenshot alone is probably already enough motivation to push me to another run
I gave it another go last night and did almost the same time again (I’ll write it up tomorrow, probably, but I could almost copy and paste my write up of my first effort!) Finding this last minute or so is proving really tough.
Having had another go at Blackpool N - Preston today, I've added both to the table. On yesterday's attempt I had 45596 and tried to be more aggressive when starting, but the cut-offs I used were too high and were inhibiting acceleration at times, and I experienced wheelslip starting out of Blackpool. Overall speeds were similar to my previous effort, as were the running times. There's not much more to add, but with clear skies Bahamas looked good in the morning light. Today I had 45655 Keith, on an overcast morning. I learnt from yesterday's experience and and made slightly more cautious starts - avoiding wheelslip - and used lower cut-offs early on, particularly on the longer runs beyond Poulton. I then benefited from the higher boiler pressure later in the section, and tried to make use of it with a final effort before each station. The differences were marginal, but enough to gain a few seconds here and a few seconds there, and ultimately resulted in my best time yet - arriving just 35 seconds late in Preston. I'd dropped 8 seconds overall at station stops, so only 27 seconds lost in running.
A very good effort and a - at least as far as I'm concerned - on-time arrival in Preston. Reading your report on your personal best, I'm wondering if using up boiler pressure for quick starts is actually a red herring and the higher boiler pressure with more moderate approaches provides more benefit overall. At least that's what I think I'm seeing. I'll see if I find the time to get another quick run in before the weekend, I think. Lovely screenshots, as always. That first one really shows off the best of BPO - the grass together with the train in warm sunlight and the town in the background. Lovely composition.
Blackpool (N) - Preston, No. 2 Note: I did this run Thursday night but due to the forums being down, I couldn't type it out beforehand. As promised, I got another run in, which is mostly more of the same but still has some interesting stuff in it, to my mind. Also, I stuck to a strict 1-minute (but not a second longer! ) stop rule this time for comparison's sake. I tried to combine what we've learned and used moderate starts and burned steam in a final push before stops once we left the suburban stops. I usually started the train with the cut-off around 60% with the cylinder cocks open. Once I had picked up the slack, I switched down to the cut-offs described in my table (regulator/cut-off) pretty much immediately. The cut-off at 22 gave me a good combination of acceleration with acceptable steam usage for the stop-and-go start of the run. For the longer running sections, I used my beloved 29 regulator, 19 cut-off combination and used 22 cut-off again for the final pushes. For Kirkham & Wesham, there's a small bridge a mile or two before the pointwork of the station, which is when I switched cut-off. For Preston, I can't quite recall anymore when I switched up, but it can't have been more than 2 miles or so before the 35mph restriction. What I find interesting are the higher top speeds I managed to achieve: 44mph before Poulton (vs. 42 before), 55mph before Kirkham (vs. sub 50 before) and 61mph before Preston (vs. 56 before). Some of that is certainly down to braking and braking points, but I think the more conservative boiler pressure approach helped. Certainly, on the way to Preston, I felt that I had a better go at it compared to my first run, In which I had run the boiler down to 200psi for a quicker start. Not to be ignored is also the idea of using up steam just before stops (credit to lcyrrjp). Let's compare some running times of my two runs: The runs up to Poulton are close enough to identical that there's no significant difference to my mind (minus the longer dwell times). Poulton - Kirkham was done in 10 minutes 40 seconds on the first try and in 10 minutes 14 seconds on my last run. A not-insignificant saving of almost half a minute. There's a 0.3% climb on the last leg to Kirkham and using the pressure here helped in keeping up the performance it would seem. Kirkham - Preston was done in 11 minutes 34 seconds on the first try and in 11 minutes 19 seconds on my last run. A meager 15 seconds at first glance but time saved is time saved, especially with our tight run-time here. Overall, what truly convinces me that this approach works better is that I arrived almost at the same time as on my first run despite keeping to longer dwell times. I don't think there's much more to say about my run. No earth-shattering discoveries made but still a marginal improvement over my first attempt. Now, about that screenshot I was trying to capture... Spoiler: Ready for another tale? Before we get to it, lcyrrjp inspired me with the grass shot I was talking about. This is where I usually mimic descriptions found in railway literature, but alas I have to admit that the location of this shot eludes me right now. A Jubilee leading a train is a rare sight from the signalbox nowadays. This is the best I could do to match Brooksbank's shot. An exact recreation of the composition is not doable anymore because the track layout is different. You'll also notice though that the angle of the shot isn't quite right. Well... ...I was photobombed by this rattly friend. As you can see, the entire view is completely blocked, so I had to take the shot from in between the tracks giving me a different angle for the shot. A nasty surprise for me when I was looking forward to that screenshot the entire run.
Great run, Lamplight. As you say, some of those maximum speeds achieved are really noticeably higher than we’ve achieved before, as a result of maintaining boiler pressure. The overall times suggest that initial acceleration was slightly slower as a result of use of this technique (which is what you’d expect) but the Poulton-Kirkham and Kirkham-Preston sections were long enough to more than make up that lost time with higher speeds later on. Your Poulton-Kirkham time was particularly impressive. Up until now every run we’d done we’d ended up at 47mph on that 1:305 climb, despite variation in techniques. I suspect from your time you must have got a bit more out of it on this run - maybe just towards the end of the climb with that final push? It certainly made a difference. Great pictures as ever. I particularly like the one from the signal box - the way the lighting and shadows are captured is just superb.
It’s a bit blurry in my mind now, but I think I managed 48mph (or maybe even 49?) on the climb and the final push and later the slight downhill bit pushed me up to 55. I think the combination of techniques is important - the higher boiler pressure gives you higher speeds and the final push enables you to hold these speeds on the last gradients.
What happened to these runs? Probably the best thread on the forum, certainly a breath of steam filled air.
I am not sure about the others but I just haven't had the time with work, the Mrs' list of jobs, the car, helping a mate do up his barn and various other things. It is certainly not dead, just sadly the virtual world falls behind the real world in the pecking order!
Although I think quite a lot of people look at and enjoy this thread, there are only a small group us who post accounts of our runs here, so sometimes we’re just all a bit busy so the thread goes quiet. If you’re someone who enjoys the thread, please consider posting on it - we’d love to hear about your attempts at any of the challenges set here (or set your own!) At the moment much of my TSW time is spent on helping (hindering?) Moritz with his BR Blue Peak Forest timetable (thread here) but I have in mind a couple of new challenges for this thread, so I’ll be back with the first of those soon.
Same as the lovely people above me. The thread is certainly not dead - neither in interest nor in new runs coming but currently life is keeping me quite busy so I didn’t have time for a proper timed run on anything. Absolutely! Anyone is more than welcome to post their runs or come up with new challenges. And just in case - don’t be discouraged by the amount of detail and barrage of screenshots in our reports. I can only speak for myself, but I’ve simply developed enough routine in reporting back on these runs that more detail just comes naturally.
Hey guys. Not sure if it belongs here, but recently i found this gem on youtube: Unfortunately, it is in polish only, even without autotranslate, but if you decide to watch and have any questions about certain parts I will gladly assist. What I noticed in the movie, is that the driver fully opens regulator and uses the reverser to drive the train without touching afore mentioned regulator. But, in british stock I read on the forum that you have to find ballance between one and other. Different construction or the one in the movie is more "modern"?
That’s interesting. I’m no expert, but I have been told that some steam locomotives in the UK were driven in this way, and someone mentioned in this thread that they understood that to be common practice on the London Midland region in particular. I started out driving the TSW Jubilee in that way, and it works perfectly well. However, this thread introduced me to the fact that others were using less regulator, and so I started experimenting too. I think our collective conclusion has been that using less regulator, enabling use of slightly higher cut-offs, makes better use of the steam overall and produces the optimum performances. It’s by no means a done deal though. If you haven’t already, I suggest trying driving the Jubilee on one of the challenges mentioned in this thread, and see how you get on with 100% regulator compared to the other attempts so far - we might all learn something new! Don’t forget to limit yourself to 25% dampers, to give a like-for-like comparison, and let us know how you get on.
I can give some input on this from the German side. What I’m about to tell you is based on an article I read in which a fireman spoke about his daily work on a Br 44 with coal firing - probably the strongest steam loco Germany had. I don’t know how she compares to English kettles though. We’re talking about a 1600t freight train being taken up a gradient of up to around 1% of 23km in length. The average gradient was closer to 0.5%. The entire run with the following descent was 57km. To start the heavy train, the driver opened the regulator slightly with the cut-off maxed out and the cylinder cocks open. Once the cylinder cocks were closed, the regulator was put to max and the cut-off wound back to between 40-50% where it stayed for the run. Once the summit was reached, the regulator was first reduced (until the speed limit was reached) and then closed. The ascent had burned 6t of coal and 15t of water were used up. It’s fascinating to read these firsthand accounts of people for whom working steam locos was their bread and butter. Given the TSW physics and the fact that (I assume) none of our steam locos in TSW are anywhere near comparable to a 44, I don’t know what if anything of this could be applied in TSW but driving with the regulator fully open was definitely a thing. The fireman did say though that the regulator was maxed out in accordance with today’s train weight so it might not have been the default choice.
I don't think it's a matter of different construction, just different training. I'd imagine even if you were driving mainly with the reverser you'd still e.g. close the regulator when you want to slow down, for instance...
Indeed, the movie is showing the part with the hill descent where the regulator is being closed but my previous post might suggest otherwise. Wrong wording, sorry.
