No worries, im sure tsw4 will get more and more 3rd party devs which can deliver what DTG couldnt related to steam: A good immersive experience! Steam is not even close to the standard of tsc. But yea "steam doesnt sell well..."
As already noted, not unless DTG themselves fix the core. There’s also the hairy issue that some of the TSC steam specialists tend to sell direct and avoid DTG and Steam for some of their content. So not only would DTG be expecting these indies to sort out the problems, with their cut plus Steam’s take and sales tax the developer probably gets left with less than £4 per unit sold, compared to probably £10 (after VAT) selling direct. For (say) 1000 units that’s a take of £4K vs £10k, not forgetting in the UK at least you also need to declare that for income tax, or should be doing if you want to avoid the Revenue geezers in dark grey suits on the doorstep.
That’s an issue for all Third Parties though, TSW must have some really good sales numbers compared to TSC, the list of TP’s is only growing & many of them are taking a while to release content. Must be something worthwhile in it for them.
True, but then again putting out a few reskinned 66’s or wagons is not quite in the same league as having to start from scratch with a steam engine. Scope for some hard negotiations with DTG over the potential reward for those who might be interested.
Agreed on that front, I think some people have been given false hope by DTG with their third party comment. I really don’t see one of them coming in & developing steam from scratch. Personally I completely disregarded the comment as their marketing spiel is stupendously see through IMO. There are more than a few things that irritate me with DTG but their condescending & deceitful marketing is right at the top of that list (that’s another topic though). My point was more aimed at the likes of JT & UW for example, they’ve spent a lot of time getting their TSW content ready for release, so they must see the value.
Taking less per unit is fine if you sell more units. The issue is it takes much longer to develop for TSW than for TSC, so time and costs are much higher as well. Whether it balances out with the much bigger customer base for TSW is anyone’s guess.
Real numbers contradict armchair market research. Here is the view statistics of my video that I posted on 21 Jan in the other thread on steam, 1 like received, thanks!
No offence, but that data is meaningless. Im sure if DTG posted the same video they’d get more views. People interested in your YouTube videos does not correlate to people interested in steam content.
In addition, as a YouTube user I see no interest in watching a random person streaming TSW when I could go and play the game myself. Absolutely zero entertainment value. Someone who has early access to upcoming content I am curious about, okay. DTG Matt’s Twitch channel is worth watching because he will often drop snippets of useful info when answering chat questions.
But you can't say that just because people don't watch your video that they aren't interested in steam. Thats not a statistically sound analysis because your views are dependent on so many different variables not just whether people want to watch steam. We know that people are interested in steam otherwise we wouldn't have had threads, requests for fixes and all sorts since steam released.
That certainly isn't true of Germany, where two of the last three routes, and the next one, are all vintage/have vintage locos. (add in the 3rd-party Niddertal as well, since the 628 is getting a lot of use by DTG)
I have a suspicion that Diesel Legends was released in an effort to recoup some ROI from locos that hadn't been selling well.
If DTG have reached the conclusion "steam doesn't sell, so it's not worth pursuing," then they drew exactly the wrong lessons from Peak Forest. PF, although the scenery and route assets are actually quite good, was a huge disappointment, because 1) Steam physics were exactly in the same unacceptable state as SOS 2) Two recycled locos, plus an underused 4F but many actual services not represented, and zero diesel services despite the relatively late (1962) date 3) Route termini that made no sense, running from nowhere to nowhere rather than Derby to Buxton In other words, yet another route promising in concept, disappointing in execution. It isn't the concept that's the problem.
I wholly agree with solicitr. I can't shake the feeling that we only got steam due to two convenient marketing opportunities. I seem to recall it being said a long while back that they 'would only do steam when they could do it right'. Next thing we have the Platinum Jubilee and surprise surprise, we have a Jubilee in the game. Next thing is the Flying Scotsman centenary and lo and behold, we get Scotsman. I purchased both of these in the hope that there would be progress albeit slow and intermittent. Recently my worry was ending up with two tiers of steam locos based on DTGs track record of branching and fragmenting content rather than maintaining the whole, i.e. the current crop and those released post theoretical 'steam update'. I can't help but see both Spirit of Steam and Peak Forrest as a missed opportunity for both being set in the transition era. It would open both up to players who only have a desire to drive diesels and I can't see any detriement to steam enthusiasts. You also get a busier timetable for both as a bonus. I just don't buy that making slightly modified era appropriate versions of the current stable of blue diesels wouldn't have had a net positive return on investment once you take theoretically improved route sales into account. Even taking a low hanging fruit approach to steam would be worthwhile. We don't *need* fully manual firing and water simulation etc but we do need basic functionality. Just getting the fireman to aim for 80 - 90% of max boiler pressure rather the what seems to be 150%, balancing performance between the 4 locos better and fixing the out of whack chuffing of scotsman. You wouldn't even need to address the completely backwards way the reverser, steam chest and chuff volume work but that would be a nice bonus.
SOS came into existence because then-Big Boss Paul Jackson wanted it. He said his dream was to stand in a recreation of Crewe station with the air full of steam and coal smoke and the noise of chuffing and clanking. It apparently took a long time and a lot ov dev hours to make it happen, much more than DTG would ordinarily devote to a single route; it could be justified by thinking they were laying the basis for many future steam locos, and creating an asset base for future vintage UK routes. But then Jackson left. And SOS had many virtues, but actually nailing steam loco behavior wasn't one of them (nor creating the bustle of one of Britain's busiest yards)
The thing is the Class 20 came out some eight months after the 31, and a entire year after Tees Valley. I really don't buy they'd have let the 20 go forward if TVL or the 31 under-preformed.
Same. Not sure why DTG has ambassadors playing content on YouTube. I wouldn’t buy a route based on their opinion and I can’t think of anything more boring to do. Much better playing the game yourself.
Because lots and lots of people do enjoy it and it's essentially free marketing for DTG. They'd be foolish not to IMO. I don't watch them either fwiw but i'm old lol
I was quite surprised when they said they were no longer supporting steam; I would imagine it's simply because they realise they don't have the time or internal expertise to make it a successful representation. I think it's certainly possible that a specialist third party could make it work, and I wouldn't put it past a third party to deliver strong results (and could likely solve core issues that DTG weren't able to) - but the most important word here is "specialist". I feel it's sensible for DTG to stick to what they're more comfortable creating - diesel or electric, and now there's an uptick of new third parties getting involved with TSW, give them the space to do steam. It's also sensible of DTG to come out and say very clearly that they will no longer work on steam if that's the case. While I was disappointed to hear it (I eagerly awaited steam coming into TSW, and it's really not a finished implementation as-is), at least I won't waste any energy hoping for something more.
They are running out of modern ones maybe? When will they do a German steam train or heritage railway I wonder.
The problem I have there is that they’re trying to appease 2 parties at once & I don’t think it’s the right way to go about it. Bremen they made the initial approach but did it in such a timeframe that allowed them to use a mix of modernised & older stock (I believe this was to gauge interest in the older stuff). Mainz/Koblenz they did go all the way & commit to a retro route, however there was a lot of requests for the 101 to be selectable. Now with the 111 they’ve slipped back a notch into a modern hybrid, however now they’re bending reality to make it fit, and we have a timetable & rolling stock that is nearly 10 years out of date compared to the route era. The 628 I believe we’re seeing so much, solely thanks to someone (I reckon Lukas) making sure it goes in. I very much think the DB regio version was a personal thing to allow it into future routes. What DTG are doing with German content is becoming worrying IMO. It’s like mixing Pre Privatisation BR eras with Post Privatisation, and similar with what Rivet did to WCL’s bizarre rolling stock.
Timetable/Rolling stock is set for 2013, the route modelling is set as it is today. They’re likely doing the 2013 timetable as they can use all DB rolling stock rather than bother with the private operators, but then I don’t get why they wouldn’t just do a 2013 route model. It’s not even like 2013 is ‘old’.
Heritage diesel maybe, but to hope for anything steam is just going into denial about DTG’s current intentions. No. More. Steam. Period.
Curious. Has the route changed much in the meantime? Not that DTG are strangers to bending time a bit - the 103 has an early 2000s cab on a 90s route with a 70s loco body, the 110 can only theoretically take over some of the trains towards the end of the year LFR is set in and has an early 2000s cab just like the cab car. Not that I’m really complaining though, I’m much more interested in vintage rolling stock than anything modern.
After all i would be interested if the in my opinion "best" 90s BR route "Preston Blackpool" has sold well. I think for its age, northern transpennine and Teesvalley are also very good and enjoyable. DTG never reworked them in terms of a.i services, additional timetables etc. But the 31 and 20 is an absolute must have for the routes. So was there anything mentioned about JTs first release for TSW?
Frankly I think that's giving too much credit to DTG - "promise a lot, deliver a little" has been their motto since long before the Focus purchase...
AIUI, the time slip is only one year. 2013 was the last year DB ran the trains before the private TOCs came in, but the Salzburg Hbf reconstruction wasn't completed until 2014, so that's the route model year.
I had a 10 second look at your video when you posted it, but you'd already explained it was a dead end and going no further so why waste my time watching it all or getting interested in it? If steam DLC is such a dead dog, would you like to explain how Victory Works has kept a roof over my families heads for over 10 years selling steam loco DLC for TSC? As you said, "Real numbers contradict armchair market research"
There passed almost 2 years since manual fireman didn't get any of the improvements declared on the roadmaps (but well then, TSW2 updates which were declared on the same roadmaps were not released, either). I guess the support for steam improvements could already ended right after release of Spirit of Steam and the rest of the steam locos we got were just in the pipeline. By the way, I hadn't imagined manual shoveling in TSW would look like this, but after seeing this video, I can't imagine now it could not look as detailed as this:
