Here in US there steam and diesel museum s and tourist line s,When a major US railroad runs a steam excursion AKA UP 4014 and when NS ran their 20th century steam program and in past 1218 611 people come out in droves to ride or trackside to see it ..
Its a shame too not but 5 months or so after the big hip hip hoopla with the flying scottsman steam is put to deadline ...personally liked the steam ( even with the imperfections ) if it would have been more sucessful they could have done some US steam and german steam
No they won’t. As already discussed, unless they want their intricate representations dumbed down for the current state of steam in TSW they aren’t going to bother.
The only way around it is if, and only if, DTG do something about it, and then give a third party interested in developing steam the right to be solely in charge of it.
The running cost difference has always been there and is well known. It's why those heritage railways with a community transport service role continue to run trains with diesel haulage during the low season, when there isn't any significant tourist demand for steam traction. But they still fire up the kettles for the summer and other holiday seasons, because that's what most of the punters come to see.
From what I understand, and at this time I don't have the exact info at hand, even the Big Boy 4014 runs with the Deisel simply to assist in breaking and help haul all that is needed to maintain/service/repair the Big Boy 4014, because of the high cost in parts for it and to repair what they have which can't be easily replaced.
I put this in the suggestion forum. https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...in-the-editor-so-players-can-fix-steam.79238/ Maybe we could get DTG to open up the source files in the editor for steam locos so the community could fix the steam sim. Though I guess better time tables and more lively services can now be added to SOS and Peak Forrest via the editor any one working on these ?. I don't have TSW4 so i have not poked around in the editor. As for TSW before steam was added the game really did not interest me. I bought TSW2 and SOS in early July 2022 thinking it was going to be a work in progress. The BS road map they published that July did not even mention TSW3 at all. It turned out nothing in that roadmap came to TSW2. SOS got like one update for TSW2 before they abandoned it. I wonder why was SOS released for TSW2 in the sate it was why not push it back for TW3. it still has out of order consists where you have to disable the vacuum break on fitted freight cars becae the non fitted cars on in front of them. They could not even fix that for TSW2. Then the preservation crew updates never came to TSW2 i did pick up some other routes which were on sale at the time and now the steam features they said were coming almost 2 years ago are dead in the water. Steam Sim is half assed. that bloody safety valve. This mods makes it some what better at least on your ears https://www.trainsimcommunity.com/mods/c3-train-sim-world/c19-patches/i3922-safety-valve-eradicator I wont pay full price for DTG DLC (out side of steam era i have little interest in most of them any ways) and I wont buy new versions of the core unless it heavily discounted on key reseller sites. All the above is why i did not buy Peak Forests when it was released(it also looked half assed in terms of rolling stock reusing SOS assets) and only recently bought Peak Forest on sale. This is how DTG gained then lost a customer almost immediately. Since almost immediately after my first purchase I began to feel ripped off. They sold me abandon ware. What sort of company releases a new title with less then a 2 month announcement. If I knew TSW3 was coming out in less then 2 months I would not have made my purchase and waited.
Nonsense, I was born in 1991. By your logic, I should be more interested in diesel and electric stock. I couldn't be any less interested in the soulless, one handled electrical boxes that run on our rails today, but will say I do love a good thrash of a diesel locomotive. I genuinely envy the previous generations getting to grow up in the golden era, where the rails covered the country like veins and these living, breathing-like locomotives ran on them. I'm grateful for the preservation movement, they've done some amazing stuff over the years and have allowed us to still experience steam today. This year will see a new member of the GWR Grange Class running, truly amazing! Diesel traction got me into TSW. I then started tuning into livestreams, and we were told numerous times that steam was coming. I really got hyped up for it! I checked out modern content out of curiosity, and to support TSW overall. Modern era content is not a game seller for me though, if they didn't have GWE (for the HST), WSR, NTP or TVL, I don't think I'd have purchased the game. Now that DTG seem to have fully abandoned steam, I don't really feel interested in the game anymore outside of the BR Class 104 and whatever JT's next route will be, neither are DTG projects. I don't really feel like supporting them with future purchases anymore, unless this decision on steam gets turned around. Steam does sell... Bad quality products do not.
Also, I believe 4014 needs a source of HEP for the coaches, since the Big Boy was a freight engine and wasn't built with passenger-coach support.
They might very well do that from time to time, but UP certainly don't need to do that, they have multiple power cars on hand they could use instead if they really wanted to. https://www.up.com/cs/groups/public..._nativedocs/pdf_up_media_41_train_consist.pdf I'm pretty confident I've seen them used on some of the longer excursion consists alongside diesel assist even.
I wonder how routes on TSC like Riviera in the 50's and Western Lines of Scotland were able to be produced with this apparent barrier to modelling anything pre privatised railways. I am glad the likes of Caledonia works don't take this attitude. Otherwise we wouldn't have such loco's as the Metro tank in TSC which disappeared by 1949 and of which none were preserved. Plus all the other engines he has produced, some of which I don't think even made it past the end of the 1920's! How to Victory Works and Bossmans Games and Digital Traction etc manage? DTG did a good job on the route for SOS in my opinion and got the community very invested in it. Frankly it is let down. I am generally supportive of DTG and a glass half full person but I have to say I am very miffed with them over this decision re steam, especially their unwillingness to fix the issues with what is there. The class 104 add-on for PFR, something I am/was keenly looking forward too is going to be sullied by silent AI and incorrect steam physics.
There is a large difference between building routes and trains. Trains like the Metro Tank will have plenty of sources despite not being preserved - photos, diagrams, etcetera. However, you're much less likely to have all of this information for backdated routes, and so there will be an element of guesswork to making it. To be fair, I don't think it's much of a challenge considering how many backdated routes there already are. Plus you don't need to be as accurate as with other routes, as nobody is able to go onto Google Maps and check on your route building, except for the few places where Google Maps does have backdated imagery, but the point still stands.
I’m not a fanboy, far from it… A fanboy is someone who wouldn’t criticise DTG over anything ever. I’m here criticising their decision of steam because DTG’s decision are founded on the lie that “steam doesn’t sell” but if you want to dismiss valid discussion on the subject with comments like that then you do you I guess. I’d love to see what the community reaction would’ve been if this had been the other way around and modern content had been dropped. I’d still have the same viewpoint as I do now, even if I do find modern content less interesting overall. A definitive train simulator should strive to have steam/diesel/electric at a minimum. Without that, you’re a niche sim along the lines of Run 8 or Zusi and should advertise it as such.
Oh if it had been the otherway round there would have been a forum meltdown. Some, well many people on here are selfish and don't care about what happens as long as they are not affected, as soon as they are then the tables are soon turned. I would ignore the use of the word "fanboy" it shows a lack of thought and for me straight away negates their argument if they can only resort to juvenile insults!
Different region, but I'd point out that's happening with US freight too, a lot of people aren't happy with the decision to cut that out of the equation either.
Don't know about anyone else, but I'd be more than happy if they focused more on Steam, it piques my interest more. Only reason I don't really touch it in TSW is because of how much of a mess steam currently is.
Yes I saw something about that. There are quite a few US freight routes up to TSW3 so it seems to have been popular so it seems a strange decision. I do enjoy US freight when I am in the mood. I think DTG/TSW should try and cater for as much variety of railway interest as possible, obviously they aren't going to cover everything. However, if the the scope of their catalogue gets narrower and narrower they will end up saturating one corner of the market. I will be buying the new London Overground route but I hope it is not to be typical of DTG's future outlook.
Without getting too off topic, I was genuinely disappointed to hear Clinchfield didn’t sell well. It’s easily my favourite of the US freight routes, love the F7. Limited Power is also the second best scenario in the game imo, after PF’s local drop off goods scenario. Hopefully the upgrades Matt’s working on for it will give the route some needed attention! It’s worrying how DTG seem to be narrowing down what content they make. Less variety in eras and route types will equate a more stagnant end product.
We shall see SimRail steam offerings in a month or so along with a US freight route. Then century of steam some in the next 2 years. Railorader is fun as hell but its steam sim sucks, but the opps, player progression and economy is great. I cant stand switching in TSW because it boring and its just follow the glowing thing. Railroader switching is fun because it leaves all the problem solving up to the player. But it is less immersive for driving the trains. It will be hilarious when these new comers mange to figure steam out and it sells well. I still don't get how DTG messed it up with all the TSC experience they have. Imagine if Microsoft flight simulator sold with out functional prop planes. DTG did try their hand at a flight sim but it failed because the market for flight sims has standards and DTG half assed approach did not work.
Tsc and tsw are very different from each other. Dtg had to learn and create a lot of new stuff. Even the game engine is different so you can't really compare the 2.
Yes you can compare, developing a game is more then just the game engine you use. All that back end stuff was already in place, they did not need to figure how to develop a train game or how to run a company. They would have a idea of what works, what does not work. and how to work. They just had to adapt to the new tools. those tools being UE4, which is one of the most well documented and easy to use game development tools out there. They have been developing train games for like ten years when TSW came out. TSW was out for 5 years before they added steam. Its now been 7 years they have been working with unreal engine and they still don't know how it works ?. Again can you imagine Microsoft flight simulator launching with out propeller planes, then 5 years later they added them, but the simulation is half assed. Then people defending the company by saying well its a new engine.
The recent WSR remaster shows what could and should have been done with Steam from day one. Instead we got Liverpool-Crewe that was abandoned and then Peak Forest which while visually spectacular definitely felt half hearted in terms of amount of services and the end points.
I’m sorry, but this excuse is starting to wear thin for me. From the perspective of the players, how the two games are developed shouldn’t matter. By the time both products are in our hands, they’re both video games that involve driving trains, so by that nature any comparisons made between the driving experiences of the two titles are perfectly valid. I agree with Karlack, DTG have been making train sim content for a long time now. As it stands, even the most basic steam locomotives in TSC feel better to drive than the ones in TSW. They have very simple manual water & firing options, press a button on the HUD or the keyboard shortcut to use the injectors or tell the fireman to start firing. Simple functions, but it works and allows you to control your boiler pressure. In TSW, the fireman is always putting coal on the fire and water isn’t used whatsoever. These important factors in functioning a steam locomotive aren’t present in TSW. As a result, you have to drive unrealistically to stop the safeties from blowing off 24/7. Proper steam simulation is complicated, much more than any diesel or electric stock. There are so many factors involved in it, I get that. When Spirit of Steam came out, I was happy to give them the benefit of the doubt because they assured us that things would improve and manual firing would come, this was a long time in the making “to give steam locomotives the care and respect that they and the players deserve” as one of the prerelease articles once said. Fast forward, we’ve just been getting excuse after excuse after excuse and not much has changed in the simulation at all. Peak Forest came out and only the 4F got slight improvements in the steaming simulation, but none of the extra functionality like manual firing. It’s still coming they told us. Turns out it was just a load of PR talk to get us to buy their steam products. It feels like DTG never had any intention of fixing or improving it from our perspective. It’s all left me conflicted with the game as a whole now, as I’ve said over in the latest Goblin thread. I’ve never taken the “vote with your wallet” route but I think it’s a good time to start. If DTG won’t make steam, or historical content for that matter as the US thread seems to indicate with Clinchfield, then why should I continue to buy and support their modern content which isn’t as interesting to me? The modern stuff was always there to supplement the historic stuff for me, with the railtours and whatnot. Modern content alone isn’t good enough to sell TSW to me, it’s just something I check out on the side and to support the game. Historical content is the core reason why I buy and play TSW. It just doesn’t get the same care and attention as modern content, Just Trains has proven that with Blackpool Branches which should be the standard of quality that all content should strive to achieve.
I still wonder if DTG have lost a lot of the specialised talent they employed at one time, people who understood physics, train performance and sound and the expertise to make it work under Simugraph. Not just steam but when was the last time we had a new main line UK diesel? There are frequent requests for Class 56, 60, 68 and 70 not to mention older traction which would sell like hot cakes if done properly with correct sounds. But it seems the only people they have now working for them are limited to producing electric boxes with simple power curves that can be aliased to a generic electric whine.
I'll say what I usual say (often disliked by DTG and Matt), TSW is a videogame for a different generation and audience vs TSC which was a PC only simulator.
Personally, I see both TSC and TSW as video games. They’re both made for home entertainment purposes at the end of the day, whereas I’d classify a true simulator as professional software used to train people up for the real thing. I don’t really feel it takes anything away from TSC or TSW by calling them a game or sim really. The products end quality will speak for themselves. I came into train simulation games during ECW’s release so I didn’t play TS Classic until well into TSW2’s lifespan. Had I been around when TS started, I’d probably still be playing it now instead of TSW. As a newer player, the sheer lists of content required to play a lot of third party stuff does put me off TSC a bit, it can be overwhelming. Not mention some of it isn’t available anymore.
That's a poor excuse. Its not like they haven't had any practice with using a newer engine, which they've been doing for 7 years. These excuses are really wearing thin. They know how UE4 works, it's not a new thing they have to familiarise themselves with.
People keep pushing Simrail as the panacea of train simulators, and yes it looks good. But the lack of single player non multiplayer services and frankly at the moment content which doesn't interest me rules it out for me at the moment.
It's worth remembering that DTG did release Flight Sim World without jets, then discontinued its development after a couple of months.
This came out almost tow months ago, so it should be relatively close, though it's always better to postpone than to release broken... right, DTG? The prospect lies in the fact, that so far they seem to take the correct way of polishing the whole thing before churning out content. The architecture of the game as a whole seems a lot more stable and logical. None of the dumb copying of everything for the same loco. You can see locos of the same class (EU07s are the best example) are modular structures, where individual details can be changed without destroying performance. It also makes adding new liveries/configurations way easier. We will see where it goes in the future, but what's now there is good. I would also recommend trying it out despite it still missing SP. You can easily find a server with not many people on it, effectively creating a single-player experience.
SimRail looks nice from screenshots, and people have talked positively about it but it needs UK content as a minimum for me to start thinking about purchasing it. I appreciate that it’s still in its early days though, so it might be sometime before it grows out to other regions. I am very curious to see how the reception to their first steam locomotive goes down though.
The issue isn't the game engine. Never has been. The issue is Simugraph, and adapting it to handle steam. The system in TSC is much simpler, because it's essentially a black box. Building system simulation from components is vastly more difficult; apparently more difficult than anyone currently at DTG can handle. Compare making an HO electric model-railway Mallard, to making a working HO steam Mallard.
But in this case, it is the tools THEY made. If Simugraph is overly complicated, then maybe they designed it wrong.
I think they have lost people and some people they do work with may have moved on from what they liked to work on before to preferring different things. There probably isn’t the incentive to go out and find someone who can turn steam development around if they can’t justify the cost against what they get in revenue. All in all, it will be a mixture of factors that they can’t fully disclose to us. It would seem that producing modern traction is more cost effective and easier to fake, by which I obviously mean reproduce it more accurately in the sim.
Again, steam WOULD sell if they did it right. A route as good as Blackpool with a steam train as good as the Pacer would sell like hotcakes.
They're also revising the single-player scenario infrastructure, which is most likely why they're not developing new scenarios on the old system. The new system is based on Lua scripting rather than a clunky proprietary system.
Well, the October update they announced around August came in November and it was split in 2 parts, from which the 2nd one is what we are currently waiting for, so yes, you can expect it being postponed, unless they manage to release it right before Steam Spring Sale, like they managed with the 1st part right before Steam Autumn Sale.
Well, somethings definitely gone awry with TSW. They're not doing steam traction anymore, not doing US freight for the foreseeable future, consigning us to a succession of shortish, rather mindless, monotonous commuter routes with single, joystick toy trains. I don't know what's happened since Rush Hour, maybe loss of staff with the needed skill -set as someone suggested, maybe the influence of the new owner or maybe just a complacency on the part of management. All I know is that money is sitting in my Steam wallet without any place to go, nothing I feel moved to purchase and not much in the pipeline.
The thing is aside from IIRC the route and Cargo Pack DLC we haven't seen any progress on any of the things on the roadmap. I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding how TSC and Simugraph work - the steam simulation code in TSC still had to be coded, and Simugraph could be used to emulate TSC steam simulation.
Which is why I’m eyeing a couple of TSC add ons for the Easter Steam sale. Other than the Class 104 there is really nothing coming out for TSW that particularly interests me, maybe the San Bernardino line but unlikely to be Day One purchase more like wait for a sale. Probably prudent to keep a few £££ back for the inevitable summer purchase be it TSW5 or just a season pack, in case one or more item is of interest.
This was one of two reasons i skipped PF. No upgrades for Steam physics and full implementation. Second reason was the just disappointing timetable, especially regarding the 4f. And just to clarify, im definitely "generation EMU" but thats not what im interested mostly. Steamers and especially Diesels are what im looking for. So it cant be the age of the players ( i feel thats just a poor excuse tbh) why Steam in particular failed. as stated above, the poor implementation most likely is. Just wanted to say that young players still love the old veterans on rails
Do we know that for sure? I frankly wouldn't be entirely surprised if Simugraph is somehow hardcoded into the sim in someway. And even if it isn't I'd question how much you can do with custom code considering that consoles are a requirement. I would note MSFS has limitations which prevent aircraft like Fenix from coming over. While others like the A2A Comanche need to drop external programs and rely on native portions of the sim to be brought over.
The whole point of Simugraph is that it isn't hardcoded - it's a bunch of modules that can be arranged in any order.
