Well, the only reason I didn't skip it until at least some steam improvements being rolled out was its dependency for mods improving foliage on all other British routes (but that's for TSW3, not sure they were updated for TSW4, as so far I don't have any reason to upgrade to it, even despite the updated WSR). If it wasn't a dependency and if steam simulation & manual firing wasn't improved, it would likely wait for layers giving more variety/better timetable (i.e. Peak Forest Expansion Pack).
So it's not hardcoded... but you need to use modules which in turn are designed to conform to it? This makes no sense, either it isn't hardcoded, and you could in theory bypass it entirely, or it is, and you need to make modules designed to conform with it. It's also silly implying a simulator like TSC is somehow "hardcoded" just because it doesn't have a modular system. Even though we know objectively it's very capable of taking all sorts of custom code to do things nobody ever thought was possible in a train sim back in 2007.
I very much doubt the basic structure of Simugraph is the issue when it comes to steam simulation in TSW. That was my point...
For anyone who didn’t catch the stream - Alex once more reiterated that steam is dead from DTGs’ side. However, he remained adamant that there are 3rd parties in talks with them that interested in steam content.
By reiterated did he address any of the concerns about promised content that was swept under the rug?
No, apart from saying that they realise the news are disappointing. It was essentially the same statement from the other stream with slightly different wording and the assurance that our feedback has been heard and is valuable. This is the relevant segment of the stream.
The Route itself looked quite good tbh. And there were some strong points but the overall package hadn't got me. Considering the price and development thats what i based my decision on. Also im on consoles, so i cannot count any mod in and i will always stay on vanilla status routes. Another aspect thats important when im thinking about getting new content.
This is nowhere near of being acceptable. Not for a serious publisher. Who wouldn't remember the fanfare when SoS was launched? And the patches for that dreaded route? They screwed up big time (buffer & derailment) the whole sim and in some parts we're still coping with these issues. Can't shake my head enough ... But at least we have this clear now: DTG - the producer of the world's most faithful sim, second to none ... blablabla - is good for doing one armed electric cracker boxes. If you want steam, you take your money elsewhere. Thanks for the hint!
I’m just curious who these alleged 3rd parties are Alex keeps referring to. Is it just PR talk or is there actually something happening behind the scenes?
I wouldn't give too much thought about that statement. Remembering good old Sam: "If it's not on the roadmap, assume it doesn't exist." And a "maybe" should be considered a "no" to prevent disappointments. Steam was a personal wish of DTG's founder and ex CEO. He's retired. So has Steam in TSW - it's just not working.
I think it was more a case that they started noticing lumps showing from under the rug and decided to stomp them down until it looked flat again. They’re not about to fess up that they made a mess of steam and that they would do all they can to improve things for existing and future steam content. That would be too honest… They promised us on the run up to Spirit of Steam that steam locomotives would get the love and respect that they and the players deserve. If that’s actually the case, what is this whole situation?
Situation is there is no development on Steam simulation. Has to be accepted. Love and respect are terms used in personal relations. DTG are a business.
No, it doesn’t have to be accepted by us. We’re free to voice our disapproval and continue talking about it as it shows there’s still interest in steam. A lot of us here are extremely disappointed by DTG’s poor decision making.
I was trying to say for your own sake it's better to accept things in life you can't change. Being frustrated damages your own health - it wasn't supposed to be a patronising comment, of course everyone's free to voice their anger. But how does it help you? Take a look around - there's lots of other fine train sims around. If I find a good steam simulation and it's immersive I don't care what the name of the game is - if it's not TSW it's another game, simple as that. Matt said they don't want to look back permanently and keep bringing the sim forwards. Which can also translate to "we won't revisit all old stuff and fix it." The major bugs were not addressed in the stream. And software is sold as-is, you should never rely on things being patched because that's not part of the End User Agreement. I don't like that too - but that's how it is. Rely on friends, not companies.
How can you bring the sim forward when you ditch a third of the traction options? This is not necessarily about Liverpool-Crewe and PFR; this is very tightly related to the future of the sim. Ditching a significant part because they messed it up and feel like it is too difficult to fix, that's a course that they will take again and again (as evidenced by the US freight issues) until all you have left to defend are monthly Goblins.
Oh, I misunderstood. Sorry! Sometimes intentions can get mixed up in text format. To be honest, it probably won’t do anything given it’s DTG we’re talking about here… I’m not angry so much now, just disappointed. It just sucks, I’m pretty much over defending DTG in any capacity though
Disappointment is the result of expectations not being fulfilled. All you can do is to adjust your expectations - the rest is not in your hands, unless you apply as CEO at DTG.
I don't work for DTG so I can't answer - ask Matt . It's DTG's game and ultimately what happens is their decision. And you may disagree - but sometimes giving up or admitting you can't do something properly can be seen as strength. There's other developers and sims that provide a better Steam experience, so every sim has its territory. On a side note, the first chess computer that was seen as "intelligent" was the one which actually could give up on a game instead of continuing until mate like its "brute force" predecessors did... I love SimRail just because we're not presented with the same game mechanics, routes and stock that have been done over and over in train sim history. It's refreshing and probably wise to leave the UK content to TSW for the time being. Do what others haven't done yet, that's the way to go. And it was to be expected - Focus Entertainment is still struggling, so they must decide well how much resources to assign to specific development, and probably developing steam would be not profitable for them. It's a decision the accountants make that have more data than we do, and in the current situation a constant output of DLC is important to them.
The one thing I took away from that clip, is that Matt P looked incredibly pissed off. Obviously EP gets the thankless kicking from on height (Focus), the coalface (I’m not working on that, sack me if you think you can get someone better or at all) and the customers (not paying £25 for that short route).
I can imagine Matt being really disappointed by the company’s decision. Whenever I’ve seen him on streams, he always lights up and is more enthusiastic when he talks about steam locomotives than other traction types. Edit: Haven’t watched the roadmap stream yet, so will keep an eye out for that moment.
I'm glad Matt's doing his Clinchfield project hiding away in the basement, tweaking headlight cones. Just don't forget to report to the Missus from time to time Matt!
No improvements... How about even providing the things they promised when they sold it in the first place?! I am so sick of DTG's lies. And they are lies. They promise the world to get your money and then just ditch anything that gets a little bit too complex for them (which seems to include a lot of very basic things). They won't fix existing bugs, they will introduce new bugs and not fix them. I don't want the impossible. I WANT WHAT I ****ING PAID FOR!! If I treated my customers like they do I wouldn't even be able to look at myself in the mirror of a morning. I would be utterly ASHAMED. JT (who have the most hands on experience as a 3rd party) have already described TSW steam as "borked" and aren't touching it. I wonder, are these 3rd parties genuine with the skills (or ability to learn) and time and dedication to produce content. Or are they the usual glut of eager beavers who see some new content creation tools and immediately state that they are going to build the entire East Coast Mainline with 10 locos and then give up after an hour of poking around in the editor.
Honestly I don't think this was at all a Matt thing. We know how important steam was to Matt. I remember listening to the old railfan podcast with him on it talking about steam with Sam. I'd also imagine his hands have probably been tied by powers above? But its frustrating those "Powers above" have buried their heads in the sand and are running the game into the ground.
Honestly this. Even if no new content is out DTG need to at least start to realise that they've missold two products now which are still broken. How bad does it have to be that even JT have publicly stated its borked. It just sucks because obviously Alex and Matt aren't allowed to have an open conversation about it with us and be honest about the situation
Yes I remember on the streams leading up to SoS at the joy he expressed at the Bossman Jubilee in particular being in there. So either, as I alluded to earlier, the people who are supposed to take instructions and sort out the mess aren't listening or outright refusing (in which case some sort of disciplinary action should be considered), or someone at a higher level than the EP is setting the priorities.
Perhaps it would be helpful to know if Schrödinger's third party actually exists and is working on any steam content, or if this is entirely hypothetical and DTG are waiting for someone to engage (which on the evidence here seems very unlikely). DTG Alex further to the current DTG statement could you shed a bit of light on this please? Especially given that at least two of the most experienced TSC steam developers have now openly declined to work on it.
I agree. Whatever happened to the manual firing that they were "taking their time to get right"? Ditching further steam routes is one thing but halting development of the basic simulation and features (which would in turn open the door for 3rd parties) is something else entirely. I'd also like some clarification. There is a time for holding your cards close to your chest but this isn't it given the entire debacle - especially given the statements by major 3rd parties. Do these 3rd parties actually exist and what are they working on if they do?
Yes, I know they have. When I talked about not seeing signs of progress I was talking about, e.g., shunting services, scenarios, and relevantly for this thread steam. Three - Caledonia Works have also declined to work on it, though for somewhat different reasons that mean they probably wouldn't want to do it even if TSW steam was in a good state.
Hello everyone, I appreciate that there are quite a few elements to this discussion around Steam, and what I will say first, is that we've really tried to give you all we can on the situation. When talking about third parties who aren't interested, it's worth noting that we have a huge list of developers we now work closely with (I believe this number is now closer to 40, with more coming in weekly - helped by the release of the PC Editor). When we talk about various third parties being interested in creating Steam content, we won't be sharing more details about which ones are, and what they're thinking of working on, and that's simply because we'd be falsely setting community expectations, and the shifting nature of working with different teams means that these plans could very easily change, especially for add-ons which are at very early stages of ideation and development. So to be clear, there have been multiple third parties that expressed very keen interest in creating more Steam content for TSW, but it would be wrong to take that as a confirmation that it will be released. We'll keep you updated on Roadmaps and articles if and when more Steam content is coming up, and that's all we can say on the matter I'm afraid. I hope you can all understand why we take this stance, this is all we will be able to share for now until we have more substantial progress.
What about existing fixes/features we were promised with the release of SOS and PFR. I understand that DTG aren't creating any more steam content but surely we at least deserve some fixes for the current content? There's still no B&C Mk1s in timetable something which was a selling point, AI still have no sound, still no coal on the shovel, no custom liveries on routes, empty conoflats everywhere, obviously manual firing and different difficulty levels were promised and have now disappeared. The only real patch we got for PFR was to lower the safety volume on the 4F. The latest FS offering doesn't even have an animated fireman? I like others are trying to be understanding of the situation but its difficult to not be frustrated when we've now had literal years between content release and small fixes/features that were promises and never materialised. We supported DTG with the inclusion of steam and it feels like we've been left high and dry. I appreciate these issues were long before you were a community manager and I suspect a lot of the reason Sam stepped down. I'm not trying to have a go at you or any of the dev team it's just a frustrating situation for products we paid for.
Clearly there are a lot of very unhappy TSW owners, but I don't understand why you persist with something that is clearly making you miserable. Why don't you throw it away and replace it with something else?
One of the reasons was the Microsoft pulled their license that DTG had to develop Flight Sim World using the legacy FSX code. Microsoft surprised the community shortly after with the announcement of MSFS2020. Might have a bit of influence why DTG stopped development on FSW.
This is the crux of the matter. The cessation of any fixes to what has been released. If third parties get on board will they fix the physics and silent Ai? As much as I am looking forward to the class 104 I wonder how it can be sold on a route where the existing locos are not working properly. It will be very noticeable on the preview stream when showing off the class 104, if an 8F on a heavy freight glides silently by, like some modern EMU!
Appreciate the response Alex. While I’m not a fan of DTG’s decision to stop first party steam development for the foreseeable future, I personally feel it’s the way it was handled that leaves a bad taste. I do want to stress before I continue that isn’t aimed at you personally. You do a cracking job at conveying our feedback to the team. The main cause of the backlash is the state that the steam simulation has been left in with very little improvement since the day Spirit of Steam released. Some notable points are: - An AI fireman that shovels for dear life, even if the locomotive is stationery. - Safety valves blowing off almost 24/7. - No chuffing effects or sounds on AI services, making them look like they run on electricity. - No manual firing/water functions that we were told were coming after Spirit of Steam. - Broken reverser values on the 8F & Jubilee as mentioned by Ed Fisk on the forums. - Simulation falls apart over 75mph, causing the locomotives to become too overpowered, also mentioned by Ed. The main concern here Alex is that core steam simulation for TSW desperately needs fixing with the missing functions also being fully implemented. If the core physics of steam remain in it’s current state, then it won’t matter whether third parties make more content or not because they’ll suffer with the same issues that affect Spirit of Steam, Peak Forest and Flying Scotsman. Peak Forest’s reputation was damaged before it even released because there were very little improvements in the core simulation, causing some potential buyers to pass on it. Had DTG come out and said they were no longer making first party steam add ons, but would ensure that they would continue to make improvements to the steam core in the background, setting a solid foundation for potential third parties. That would’ve likely gone down better. Steam locomotives are a massively important part of Railway history. To hear that DTG aren’t going to be supporting it in TSW anymore is extremely sad to hear. I sincerely hope that one day, this stance changes and steam will get its time in TSW because as it stands right now, steam hasn’t been given a fair chance to shine.
With the confirmation from DTG, er, confirmed I have now amended the thread title to a statement, not a question.
I certainly appreciate Alex contributing to the thread and I certainly won't shoot the messenger. I do wonder if forces higher up are at play, maybe it is some influence from Focus. I don't believe that for a moment this would have been a decision Matt would have taken as he was so excited and passionate about steam coming to the sim, as he is about everything else he is involved in relating to TSC and TSW. I do believe that it is a bad decision, whoever is behind it and hope that some third parties do get involved. However if DTG can't fix the core issues then how would a third party. Unless it is simply a case of DTG not wishing to devote the resources to fixing it. It won't stop my playing TSW but it has soured the experience slightly and certainly stunted my excitement for the release of the class 104.
Yes absolutely I would love that too. I will be getting it as I want to support the developer and I love first generation DMU's, especially class 104's but all this feels like a debacle which DTG should have seen coming.
It does and like you I don’t want to shoot the messenger or Matt, but we still haven’t really had an honest explanation of why steam has been abandoned - including the needed fixes - as customers having paid considerable money for the two main products then given assurances at the time it was an early evolution and would improve. I feel at times there is a certain amount of impotence in DTG when it comes to pushing back against whatever level these decisions are coming from. I mean in the roadmap thread we are still being assured that Focus only have a very loose oversight of DTG and TSW, therefore these strange decisions must be coming from within their own organisation. For starters they should be thinking solutions not problems. If steam didn’t sell, why was that the case? What can they do to remedy that? Well we already know many of the answers to that but as a company they shouldn’t walk away with their tail between their legs but push forward and turn it into a success. Again repeating what’s already been said, they rushed in with the vanity project for Paul Jackson, instead of trying a short branch or secondary line to prove the concept. Result - we got the ghost route that is SoS with two locos not really representative of the route, a limited selection of coaching and freight stock and no follow up to add more locos and stock to populate the empty space and timetable gaps.
Makes me laugh DTG Alex, you just constantly avoid the question(s)about fixes, then advise you would not want to breach community expectations. Completely contradictory to what the company you work for have/had stated. As you didn't work for DTG back then, shall I provide a YouTube video detailing these false promises? You constantly ignore us in the forum, skim over stuff when it appears 'Quarrelsome' etc, but your company are the cause of this bickering, due to your broken promises and continual failure to deliver on these.. Actually provide a straight answer and stop beating around the bush! But, can someone tell me.. why will an AI Jubilee, uncoupled from coaches make chuffing sounds, however, when couple to coaching stock remains silent? (Not totally sure if the 8F does this)
This has gone beyond a point where it is acceptable. And just to be clear, im not talking about the decision to abandon steam itself, its the way how this was handled. Lets jump back to before SOS arrived. Back then you told us that when Steam is finally coming to TSW, you want to make sure that its implementation reflects the glory of those machines. Sounds, physics, all has to be on point because you wanted it to di absolutely right. First bummer, SOS arrived and the 8f and Jubilee got released without full implementation of steam physics. So far that was a point that i think was justifiable, you made clear that you are constantly working to improve this so it can be implemented. Same on the famous "manual firing". Months got past and nothing happend. Where has all the work has gone that you put in steam physics? Than it was time for the second Steam based Route for TSW. Before Peak Forest, there was a slightly update for steam physics which were meant to redefine the driving experience. As we all know today, it arguably made things just worse. Ignoring the fact that PF was just a sub par DLC for reasons, not even the introduction of a new Engine let to those promised fixes. After that, nothing beside the normal "we are working on it, looking into it" Again, where has all the work gone you said you had put in? Months later, TSW4 is around the corner and with it one of the most iconic engines in the world, the Flying Scotsman. This was the Moment where everyone thought "good, new Steam engine, amd as they are working on implementing steam the correct way this surely means we will get those promised (!) upgrades, fixes and implementations right ? And actually that was the point where those promises should have been paid of. As we all know that has not happend. Instead we got the Scotsman in a state in which it probably shouldn't have been released, at least physics wise. FOR YEARS you lied to us, telling us that those improvements are on the way. You sold three DLC with a lie that those improvements will come. And because thats not enough, you just wanted this to fall under the carpet. Not a single word from you that you have not worked on this and will not be implementing those promises. WE the community had to act and put pressure on you so we finally can get a honest answer. And then i was watching the Stream. The whole Steam topic was done in about 30 seconds. You are done with steam and the only thing you can say is "third parties will surely come and do steam". Really ? Not even half an hour later you telling us how exciting it is that there are SO MANY NEW PROJECTS, wouldn't it be better to finish old projects before taking the challenge of new ones ? How shall i believe in this. How shall i believe in a company that lied to their hard based community in such a shameless way. This has to be the most insulting thing i have seen from a game developer opposite to their customers. And pretty much thats the last nail in the coffin for me i think. Im not feeling comfortable to "invest" into a company that i treating its loyal community like this. Unbelievable. Edit: just wanna clarify, "you" is meant for DTG not a particular person as such.
I don't know why there is a rush to absolve Matt P of responsibility. He will almost certainly have made the decision to stop steam development. That's what Executive Producers do.
Now I were going to write out a whole essay, but frankly I haven't the time as I need to get some kip and I am sure that not one of you would want to suffer reading it! But, actually, I think the whole steam situation, events and DTG's handling of it, from SoS in TSW2 to steam's abandonment in TSW4, can be described much more concisely and accurately in 5 words: 'A complete and utter shambles.'
The decision comes from the higher ups, who want development focused on what they seem to think will make them most money.
