How Do We All Think Rivet Will Do With The 170s For Fife Circle Line?

I get 170s all the time where I am and I am very fond with them, so I get what you mean

 

I was a very happy person when the fife circle was announced. Looking at the screenshots from the March 2024 Roadmap, I cannot wait for this route! The 170 looks very good going from the first-look video & the screenshots apart from a few things which I hope are fixed before release.

My local line is fully operated by 170s so I'm going to be very sad if it doesn't act or sound correct

 

I dont see how its Rivets fault for limitations of the Unreal engine causing audio issues, so why include this?

Why would Rivet be obligated to make multiple variants when they are basing it off of the current common class of 170 used by Scotrail? Making new light clusters and anything that entails is more dev time that a small studio can't afford.

Despite their track record, it's not impossible they might actually go and fix any issues if another third party wanted to use it. They may have also learnt their lesson from last time regarding any issues with the 385. There's still time to fix what people didn't like about it (personally i dont know what the fuss is really, it didnt really bother me)

Again, Rivet are making this for a scotrail route. There's no obligation for them to cater to anything else given that they also will be needing to sink a lot of dev time into the route itself and other assets. I really don't think you can hold that against them as there's no need for them to dev that right now. The same can be said about every other DLC which gets reskinned by the community, why does Rivet seem to get hate when its a common theme across other DLC?

Again why should Rivet worry about this for now? They're not obligated to cater for other DLC, especially DLC not made by them.

NOTE: I'm not a rivet fanboy by any means, I just think people are holding them to an impossibly high standard or are setting themselves false expectations of what DLC should include.

 

In the end the customer decides if hes gonna pay 40 bucks at day one, 20 bucks on sale or no purchais at all.

Rivets gimmicks like "working elevators" seemed to become more important than train simulating aspects. The 385 sound is LOVE and not even flange sounds are there....

To make it short: only TSG and JT are getting my day one full price money. Dtgs minimalism will get my attention at 60% sale, and same goes for Rivet. (Except the feedback is very positive and the preview convinces me like with salzburg - rosenheim)

JT and TSG proved its possible to go the extramile. (Blackpool branches / niddertal bahn)

Post edit: it took Rivet more than 1 year to fix the 1938 tubestock audio? Thats not a tsw limitation, its pure missmanagement (lazyness) for a 20 bucks loco dlc which is supposed to represent a rattling noisy experience.

 

To be brutally honest here. I completely agree with this statement. But I don't blame the community one bit as they've made stuff in TSC that was extremely high quality so I understand why the standard is so high.

But the community as a whole needs to understand that Rivet games isn't perfect ofc they're gonna screw things up... I mean that's how development works, but to hold them to a ridiculously high standards is honestly terrible and it shows how bad the community is

 

As a paying customer i for my self dont expect things which were never achieved in tsw.

Its also my money and i wont keep my mouth shut about what i think. No Feedback, no improvement.

What about this makes the community a "bad community"?

 

Correct. If this was being put out as freeware or buy me a biscuit shareware is one thing. But these people are doing it for a payday and expect us to pay a price which is not much less than that for an entire new game. So I do hold them to a high level of quality or no sale.

 

First of all variants. Scotrail have 2 variants of 170s 170 401-415 with the old headlight clusters and the rest with the more modern ones. Why cant they model 2 headlight clusters? They arent remaking the train. JT gave us 10 variants of the pacer. All for the same price as routes with 1 variant of train.

Variants help diversify routes with minimal effort. I mean come on your telling me there couldnt have been 375 and 377 variants? There couldnt have been a 466? There couldnt have been a 165? There couldnt have been a 700/1? You might accept bare minimum effort but I dont.

You say we are holding them to such a high standard but if we dont hold them to a standard then they will slack even more like DTG are. I see third parties as what is going to rescue TSW from what DTG are doing to it. But accepting LOVE sounds on the 150, 385 and soon to be 170 is not on.
I got dragged for saying this im gonna say it again. Laziness. If they wanted to they would but they just dont want to. Its not a matter they cant. They wont.

 

You want them to waste precious time making 2 variants of the 170, one of which is only on one unit?

 

My mistake its 170401-415

 

I'm not disputing this. If its LOVE, dont buy it.

It begs the question of how many people are going to know this though, especially the en masse market. What if those variants have subtle changes in the cabs or elsewhere? Maybe they have a different/older seat setup? People like yourself speak as if you know absolutely everything that goes into making DLC. We dont know dev time constraints, what they have access to, what Scotrail are only happy giving them access to, we dont know how big the team is nor do we know what sort of budget/other constraints they are on either. In other words, some people are just not going to be happy because they know the inside out of every class variant. Remember this is a niche market and they can only do so much.

So much hearsay yet again - yes some people didn't like the sounds on the above mentioned classes but i don't like this approach of guilty until proven otherwise. Genuinely makes me laugh how upset people got over such a small snippet of audio from a clearly marked WIP preview.

Let them cook and if its LOVE - you'll be validated. Simple as that.

 

It should be clear that it is just not always possible do record correct sounds.

Which puts the devs into a dilemma, DTG already stated if the can't get the sounds they won't do a train at all (probably due to forum backlash).

No one is winning here. If you are so eager to have the correct sounds for a loco that is bundled with a route and dismiss it if it's not good according to your ears, then you might just not buy it, which is the same as the devs not doing it at all.

But - for the people who probably do not care as much as the few specialists who are lucky enough to know these trains in real life, it will be a loss.

Flawed sounds can be replaced by mods (there's a 385 sound pack out there for example). It's a commonly accepted thing and we're used to buying AP packs in TSC if we want aural precision - which is not the primarily important thing for many.

Accessing the real thing and recording is costly or impossible and will reflect in the price.

Look what you pay for a realistic flightsim plane addon (without a "route" included).

 

I don’t think sourcing sounds for the 170 would be an issue, it’s been done a few times in TSC so there are sources which exist. Maybe it is easier for Rivet to start from scratch, as opposed to trying to take anything from TSC or indeed AP. An interesting point though is that Rivet seems to run into this problem with every train they do. Every time they release yet another pack with the same pattern of errors, the groaning will only get louder & louder.

Of course you can just not buy it, which aside from the usual caveats of that old statement, Rivet are taking well known & highly requested trains, then botching their sounds & physics together. There’s a certain point where that’s not really fair.

Mods can certainly be a good solution…for less than half of TSW’s userbase.

 

That's true, yes.

But that DLC is a bundle, containing a route, timetable, scenarios and stock. Making everything precise (and for me there's a difference in irrepairably broken sounds like the SHG BR 187 or inaccuracies) to an extent that pleases the rivet counter as well as the casual gamer (probably the major customer base) is just something that will disappoint you in some point based on your expectations.

We have Pro locos in TSC that are sold as standalone, at almost full route price. For those who want it, because making a good loco can take up the same amount of time as doing a route.

For me, Rivet have done a fantastic job on Bernina, showing steady improvement, and Fife Circle is a day-one purchase for me - though I was thinking differently some time ago, but TSW has me swingin back and forth.

 

This is a VERY good point actually. Whilst the 170 is quite central to the route, there's also the route itself which is not a small route by any means and will need a lot of custom assets being made for the different stations.

 

There’s no debate from me that the value of a DLC as a whole should be taken into consideration, but just because they model well, it doesn’t earn them the right to be exempt from criticism in other areas, especially the trains which are central to the experience of a train simulator.

There’s a huge difference for me between poor sounds & incorrect sounds. If for some reason sounds can’t be correct, then what is there needs to be good.

 

Exactly.The 172 on Goblin in TSC sounds more like a 158, but because the sounds are excellently mixed not an issue. On the other hand, as I’ve said before, if a developer did a Class 25 and aliased it to the 47 or even worse 66 it would be an instant no sale.

 

Okay then if they cant handle a long route and new train why do it then?

 

They would get complaints that their routes are always short.

 

Then dont do anything. If you cant produce a high quality route and train whats the point? JT managed to so theres not really any excuse.

 

who's saying they cant?

 

The E->G route was fine though?

 

200% agree on that. Rivet never went the extra mile on their own. The ideas had to be chewed and put into their mouth with a spoon by the community over and over.

Unfortunately i gave up.

Its not about they never have good ideas, infact their content has huge potential left with much of it unused. On top they send the impression once a dlc is released, its getting dumped or fixed 6 months - 1 year later.

 

But most of their routes are high quality. The trains need some work but they're not as bad as you're making out.

 

I know that. Their modelling is 100% top tier.

 

I feel like E2G was overly hated because of the sounds on the 385. Personally I think E2G is extremely underrated and overheated(Just like NYT) the scenery and modeling were well done for the most part. But the sounds just completely killed it.
And don't forget Berninaline they pretty much nailed it with everything including the trains, but even in their best product to date the Allegra sounds absolutely awful

 

Hence the root of the issue, why spend an hour enjoying lovely scenery, while getting your ears tortured.

Again, incorrect sounds are annoying and controversial in a simulator, but when they’re poor quality it’s a whole new level of ‘bad’.

The 523 & Allegra are not great, but the 385 is not far behind the 187 when it comes to sound quality.

 

It's a general statement.

To answer all of these in one go, just because they're not obligated to do something doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. As I wrote in my post, 'The Turbostar has so many variations and quirks that making one 170 will mean a lot of work in the future' - every time a new variant of the 170 is needed in the future (and they will be needed in the future, there aren't that many places in the UK that don't have a Turbostar of some kind serving it) they'll need to go back to modify this one, and then that'll mean many separate versions of the train each with their own problems and advantages.

Examples:

• Class 171 (/7 or /8): New coupler, with the required code to make it able to haul dead Electrostars as they have done so in the past (one could describe them as the indirect replacement of the Southern 73s, but I digress). If the sole /4 was to be made, this would require further work.
• Class 168: If the initial batch are made, an entirely new cab would need to be modelled. Some units have different seat designs which would need to be made. And, of course, the different headlights and air dams too.
• CrossCountry 170: Different seats depending on origin. I'm not sure of the exact unit numbers and where they came from, but you'd need to be weary of which units have/had the Midland Mainline interior and the Central Trains interior, which had a different layout. And, once again, the headlights and air dams.
• Anglia 170: Different seating layout, I assume dependent on the unit in particular.
• East Midlands 170: The 170s in EMR's fleet are a mixed bunch like CrossCountry. Some aren't/weren't even meant to be classified as 170s (the three ex-Southern 171s are still running around with Dellners rather than BSIs which means they should still be classed as 171s, but they may have been changed by now) and the interiors are a mix of different TOC's colours, although the refurbishment will hopefully standardise them - which would result in an entirely new interior needing to be made should the train come to TSW.

While it doesn't cover everything, the AP Class 170 EP manages to account for most of the external differences of the units, at the expense of having no interior view (but I don't blame them for not making one, and in a way I'm glad they didn't taking into account the appalling 375 interiors), and that means that now it's been done once we don't really need to go back to do it again. Obviously new reskins are being made for it, but now the essential bits are done we'll always have a source for a 'good enough' Turbostar, barring the 172s with gangways. In essence, if you do it right once you don't need to worry about it again, and really the Class 170 no matter what game it's in should be part of a 'complete pack' of some kind for the reasons I have spoken about.

 

Some of Northern's 170s are different as well. They're all the /4 variants, but some have an area which was first class on ScotRail where some of them came from.

 

Are you unable to handle criticism? I am genuinely curious? If it is a route that you are looking forward to than fair enough but that doesn't make the product immune from criticism just because you are genuinely excited about it. This whole "if you don't like it, don't buy it LOVE does not make something immune from criticism"

 

My list was only meant to list a few things (if I was writing a list of all of the possible variations of Turbostar trains it would need to be released in paperback). I assume what you said is right, although I'm not that knowledgeable about the Northern 170s. Something that is possible in TS is for individual units to have the appropriate child objects spawn, although the AP 170 pack does not have this feature. TSW can do it as well and it has been done for nameplates and (if what Matt Peddlesden has said is accurate) entire liveries, but they have the opportunity to do it for interiors as well. That would in theory make it possible to cover the many variations of the 170 in TSW. The interior of the train in TS is very basic which does look bad but as it's a very simple model it represents all of the variants well enough.

 

This this this. Everyones excuse for not including things is 'budget, time, value' however I find these absurd. £29.99 gave us 9 variants of pacer and a gorgeous route. (BPO). The fact JT gave us 3 different liveries and (3?) engines / gearboxes yet Rivet cant give us a headlight cluster variations. Its absolutely absurd. Those defending should be ashamed.

Another point, its not like Rivet are out of touch with the community like DTG are. Rivet listened to some of their feedback regarding the gangway as well as the 385 and surprisingly 801 layering. So they 100% saw the comments on the clusters. Damn 15 units incorrect simply because they didnt want to get them done.

 

isn’t it 9 ? (3 liveries and 3 variants for each)

 

Maybe i counted wrong when going through the train selector thing

 

I have to agree. I avoided that route for a long time largely due to the bad press in here, but then it popped up on sale last month so I took a flyer- and it's actually really good. The 385 sounds were fixed with a quick trip to trainsimcommunity, and the 385 now really shines: it's a good train (except for the keyhole driver's view, but that isn't Rivet's fault). The route is really very well done. Even with only one train type, the terminus stations are surprisingly busy, and the landscapes are charming.

 

Has it occurred to you that Blackpool is a loss leader for Just Trains? That they want'ed to put their best foot forward with their first route, and were willing to take a financial bath on it? Fairly common business practice. (Compare Sand Patch, TSW's first route and one on which they lavished an unrepeatable amount of work).

 

Time will tell. However they have made a great first impression. Something Rivet didnt even do.

 

Who is attacking loool dbi

Anyway just because BPO is in ur least played routes doesnt mean its not in others top played routes. U alone cannot push your narrative onto other people nor can you represent 100s/1000s of users.
You are acting like theres 50 types of clusters. Theres 2 which 15 170s in Scotrails fleet have the older one and the rest have the new ones.

Just because YOU dont care doesnt mean nobody else does. And just because I care doesnt mean everybody else does.

Anyway ill help you. 170401-170415 have the smaller headlight clusters okay. Thanks. Bye bye.







I

 

The Pacers have 3 sets of physics & sounds, each with 3 skins.

The BPO route is well received for far more than just the Pacer - mainly attention to detail and smaller features that come together to make the route feel more immersive & alive. Things which no doubt people think aren’t needed in TSW.

There’s a certain irony in you saying someone should be ashamed for their negative comments, whilst you are simultaneously talking down another devs product.

 

I am very disappointed at rivet...

 

I assume you’re talking about the sounds?

 

Yes

 

not the sounds for me on that one it’s the bugs and complete lack of interest in fixing issues still and how it released in such a state.

I like good sounds but it’s honestly never how I decide whether to purchase or not.

 

Well you can always run other trains on the route and the Fife C is a must buy as it has the worlds most iconic railway bridge so i wouldn't be too upset about a bad sounding 170 but if they were doing a route like say Glasgow to Lanark and made a hash of the old electric units i would be doubtful to buy it.

 

Once the route releases, then I'll make a comparison. I'm hoping mistakes have been learned and moved on from, only the final product will be proof of that.

 

I've just reinstalled TSC version of FCR and TSW can't have worse 170 sounds and physics , just impossible. But I enjoyed the run anyway. Remember that 2d Edinburgh scenery?

 

I'll be honest here the 170 sounds currently sound a hell of a lot better than the 150 and 385 and even those sounds combined the 170 still outshines both of them. Only the preview steam will tell if they made changes to the sounds or not

 

I bought it for the simple reason its a British route, no other reason

 

I feel like I have no choice whether I purchase this route or not because it includes a train I really want which imo isnt fair... We the community know Rivet screw trains sounds over and im sure they do too so why take on a train thats immersion is almost solely based on its sounds