That would have been awesome though. But I can already imagine the amount of ppl complaining that they couldn't get it to work, because they entered it incorrectly.
Hi, I want to ask, can I change somehow brakes from G to R? Because going with passenger wagons with Vectron braking on G is.. bad. And will be someday update so we could turn on ep/NÜB (electropneumatic brake)? Thanks
Not quite sure I understand what you want to achieve. NBÜ is not really needed in a simulation, as your virtual passengers will never use the emergency brake
Hi cwf.green, can you please check train number 89404 Lübeck - Hamburg with Vectron? Try to run it and observe the brakes, I have feeling that vectron does not communicate correctly with the old Laaers wagons at all. It feels like aside of dynamic brakes from the loco there is not really a lot of brake force in the consist. These wagons are old and do not support all the modern features, but when I run the same train with MRCE182 that was originally for this route, the brake force is enough for a safe stop. So vectron must be doing something differently and I am suspicious it does not communicate with the wagon brakes correctly. When I started slowing for a Vr 0 from 90 km/h, I was not able to make it for the PZB-M check, and even after the zwangsbremsung, I still slid through the main signal at like 45 km/h. BrH for this train should be fine, actually allowing even much higher speed. These wagons do not have working brake mode levers, but even if they were hardcoded to worse G (while the ingame model says P), the brake force should be much better. You can experiment just with the first block signal after leaving Lübeck, it's even somewhat uphill and there is no way to brake in time from 90 km/h for it with regular braking levels. When I turn off EDB blending it's even worse, somewhere around 55 km/h while passing the signal. Only when I immediately pull schnellbremse after passing the distant signal it seems to stop reasonably (perhaps little farther than I would expect, but in time nonetheless), so perhaps that triggers something else in the wagons than regular brakes. But normal brake feels like it's not propagated into the consist and it may be all just vectron's own brakes.
Well, I wrote ep too, which means electropneumatic brake (the brake system just starts braking almost immediatly on all wagons) and this is using all the time when the wagons have this
While making the physics/simulation for this locomotive my expectation was that it would be 100% freight, so I spent all the time I had available on making the freight aspects as realistic as possible. NBÜ/ep and train light control had to "take a back seat" unfortunately. All I can say is that if I'm ever involved in working on the Vectron again (however that may be), one of my first priorities is to implement ep-brakes, Matt frowns on promising features, but I feel like I've hedged my bets sufficiently here lol (I may never work on it etc etc).
I just performed some tests in the editor. Anything before DRA is really old in terms of Simugraph setup (in fact anything after and including DRA is equally "new" in setup since I made them all consistent before TSW4 ). There's been quite a lot of improvements on the German freight wagons since Hamburg-Lübeck. For example, the HBK Laaers pairs acts, pneumatically, as two separate wagons rather than a single unit with a shared brake cylinder. This means that the train "acts" as if it is 36 wagons long rather than 18. The wagon does also not have a quick service function which the newer (in TSW) wagons has. Quick service connects the brake pipe with a small reservoir as soon as the control valve moves to "apply". This causes a sudden drop in pressure of about 0.4 bar (the quick service reservoir is calibrated in volume to achieve this drop). This might not seem like a lot but this fast drop in pressure speeds up the air signal in service braking quite a bit. There is also the fact that the older locomotives most likely let out air really quickly during service braking (a large exhaust) so the wagons control valves are calibrated for this and less sensitive as a result. I calibrated the brake valve exhaust (and charging inlet) based on real world data which made it slower than most previous locos, but the post DRA wagons have been changed to support this (and backwards compatibility is preserved since there is not really any danger of a fast reduction in brake pipe pressure in the absence of brake pipe accelerators*). All this to say that you can blame either the Vectron or the Laaers wagons for the poor brake performance, since it is their compatibility that is causing the issue. However, the Vectron is more realistic so I'd blame the HBK Laaers more I want to point out that even with the HBK BR182 the Laaers wagons do not really act realistically, as I brought up back in 2022 (check my post history). Now for some results. I'll attach two plots from Simugraph of the brake pipe (dark colour) and brake cylinder (pale colour) pressures as a function of time during an emergency brake application and full service brake application. Red = Vectron, Yellow = 100m from loco, Green = 300m from loco, and Blue being the last wagon in the train. Emergency The Simugraph debugger doesn't really act in "true time" so I omitted the x-axis since it is misleading. The total time plotted was 27 seconds with t = 2 seconds being when I made the emergency brake application. For reference the light red Vectron brake cylinder pressure hits the maximum at around 22 seconds. Interestingly you can see the "inshot" at the beginning where the brakes apply with P-brake timings up to ~ 0.8 bar and then slower timings (which is realistic). Full service Here things start to go haywire. I stopped the plot after 90 (!) seconds. As you can see from the blue and green lines the brake cylinder pressure on the 300m and rear wagons had not reached a maximum by then. The fuzzy-ness of the yellow, green and blue BC lines is due to numerical oscillations from the relay valve being a bit too "quick" - large inlet or outlets w.r.t. the BC volume (the valve goes from "fill" to "drain" very quickly to try to achieve the target but overshoots due to a combination of the large diameters and tickrate). This can be removed by tuning. At 90+ seconds to reach full service brake cylinder pressure you'll get a really long stopping distance, no way around it. * Brake pipe accelerators are devices used on most modern UIC passenger stock to speed up the propagation of air during an emergency brake application. The work by sensing the large pressure-time gradient in the brake pipe during emergency, in the given coach, and then opens an exhaust valve to the atmosphere (like on the loco). These devices can shave off several seconds for the BP pressure to drop below 2.8 bar, and since this is the threshold for the magnetic track brakes to apply that can make a big difference. Their braked weight is marked with rhomboids <R>. Because they sense a large gradient, making the brake pipe pressure drop too quickly on the loco can inadvertently engage them.
Well, in RailWorks Vectron from Dominick K-Trains is possible everything even with ep/NBÜ and all safety systems (ETCS, Mirel, PZB,LZB,SIFA/SCMT..) and here is problem even setting data of train and this.. I dont have problem with bigger price for it, but please, more functions.. edit: and bug when Vectron brakes in "eco" mode with electrodynamical brake too, but in reality, it brakes with all traction motors without eco mode, eco mode works only when adding power Edit2: And when changing brightness of one display, in reality it automatically set the same brightness for all displays, not like here when you have to change brightness on each display Edit3: Here you can take a look what is possible in older simulator, so dont tell me it isnt possible here with Unreal engine.. https://k-trains.com/en/produkt/vectron-class-193/
Thanks for that explanation! I have honestly thought ep is simulated automatically when coupling to appropriate waggons. Never tried it in TSW with the Vectron yet, though...
You're preaching to the choir. I'd love "pro level" DLCs (to play and/or to work on), but as I said before: the Vectron DLC for TSW4 Deluxe was not such a product. It's more of a third party kind of project (but of course if DTG wants to make such a product I'd welcome it whole heartedly). Let's see what happens in the future I think you are correct about this. Can't say when it will be fixed (as always: I never promise, only show). I'm not sure how this works in real life so I'll have to confirm with the Vectron driver I've worked with. If it is a bug it should be an easy fix (but again, no promises when). I won't tell you it is impossible, and I never did I'm also well aware of the K-Train products and a fan. To expand a little: the issue is not Unreal Engine vs Railworks (although Unreal Engine + Simugraph opens up some big possibilities), rather it is a question of time. It takes a huge amount of time to develop something of the level of K-Train (or DCS or PMDG). And the nasty thing about realism is that the more you increase it, the more time is required to support the realism you implemented in terms of making it consistent with other features, and bug fixing. Sort of a feedback loop of expanding time commitment. Say you want to implement feature X that is prototypical. That takes Y amount of time. But now you need to change features Z and W because they depend on this, so Y grows to 2Y or 3Y etc, and then you need to bug test it which is more time consuming now because it is so realistic and complex. You get the idea I still think it is economically viable, but that's a guess that hasn't been confirmed in TSW.
How does the shunting controls at the driver's window work? Specifically, I keep triggering Sifa without a warning tone audible or shown on the displays, which seems to be due to me not being in the driving seat. Or is that not used most of the time, and I should switch to the other side of the cab to drive?
"Shunting station" is a unfortunate name since it is definitely not supposed to be used for shunting The naming seems to have been introduced with the earliest TRAXX locomotive in TSW. My speculation for the reason is that the Class 90 (and maybe some other UK electric locomotives of that era) has a similar station that I think (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not very knowledgeable about UK rolling stock) could be used for shunting. These controls (called "Hilfssteuerung" or auxiliary control) were supposed to be used while departing to allow the driver to check the doors/platforms. The driver would then quickly transition to the driver seat as the train left the platforms. From talking to German drivers it is not used anymore (or very rarely). I think it's usage may have become obsolete with the Zp9 "departure order" signal, and nowadays even that signal is being replaced, for example by a mobile app on DB Fernverkehr (long distance).
I can give you another use from real life: reversing. If you’re reversing and still want to check where you’re going in addition to the person on the ground/at the other end, these controls are useful as they’re easily accessible while leaning out of the window.
I have pressed button 3 in the Enstellungen menu but it will not change, it instead remains on mode M.
Because you were (a) In monitoring mode (basically the 70/85 cycling flash) (b) already in motion First one is semi-realistic, second is fully realistic. Still, the actual input is fictional w.r.t. PZB (as I explained before), but most of the settings are prototypical. Like 150/240 kN Electric brake effort etc.
Hey Guys, firstly, awesome work cwf.green the Vectron is by far the best Loco in the game in my opinion. Since a few days now, I am not able to confirm the newly selected AFB speed with Shift + R. Before, this worked like a charm and was really handy, since I am not using the mouse at all while I am driving. Now, nothing will happen when I use Shift + R, and also Shift + F is just reducing the AFB pre-selected speed. (Not sure if this was working before, since I always used Shift + R). From your previous explanations I have understood, this key binding is not a usual one the user can modify, it is hard coded. So I could not have misconfigured it, but I also cannot repair it. If i click the spot on the lever with the mouse, the feature is working as expected. Anyone has the same behavior? I already checked the local game files, without any change.
in this thread https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...entation-on-german-and-austrian-routes.80878/ I have also mentioned what could be marginally related to this topic - I have tested Vectron on several routes that have neutral sections and it didnt register (aka if you dont open MCB in time it should trip it open upon passing neutral section), except on Semmeringbahn, where it was the only loco that actually registered this section (apart from 4024, which is the only EMU/train that consistently registers neutral sections) this is sth I had noticed thanks to guys here and that I have subsequently tested myself... reported this to Dovetail Support and they said they forwarded it to the developers... so will see if neutral sections get a proper implementation into other locos including Vectron or if 4024 remains the only one reliable in this as for the other thing I was investigating (weird AFB reset behavior in 1116 Taurus) https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/obb-1116-lzb-afb-minor-issue.80932/ , I also tested Vectron - and it works in prototypical way, aka: 1. once LZB section is over and you are in PZB control, set AFB to zero and confirm 2. set AFB to desired value and confirm 3. loco should now be able to apply power/throttle
This is very surprising to me since I designed the under- and overvoltage protection on the Vectron with Vorarlbergbahn in mind. It was definitely working at release and even after release, on Vorarlbergbahn and also on Dresden-Riesa, so if it not working any longer that is a later regression that I had not involvement with. The systems I designed either open (and block closing) the MCB if the voltage in the overhead line is lower than a specific threshold that is different for 1.5 kV DC, 3 kV DC, 15 kV AC and 25 kV AC. When crossing a neutral section the voltage obviously drops to zero so the UVP will trigger in all modes/on all pantographs. The overvoltage protection does the same as UVP with regard to the MCB (but the thresholds are now upper limits rather than lower limits) but additionally it will automatically drop the pantograph in the 1.5 kV DC and 3 kV DC modes. Both UVP and OVP can be tested by lowering the pantograph and selecting the wrong voltage (e.g. selecting 1.5 kV/3 kV or 25 kV on a German or Austrian route or all but 25 kV on LGV Méditerranée) and then trying to raise the pantograph and close the MCB.
I will try and test Vectron again on Vorarlberg - the neutral section when crossing border (there are several more as far as I remember, but this one I know the spot of), as for Dresden - Riesa, havent tried it there since I dont remember its location... when I am at it, I might as well do another round of testing on the other neutral sections I mentioned... to double-check if the results from before were true and not a result of some temporary bug will post it here once I am done - I will do it the way I did it before, go through neutral section, dont open MCB on purpose to see if it trips the MCB open, and if I can apply throttle afterwards Vectron is in the very top group of my personal chart of locos, so I want to make sure my findings are true
Hard to find the reason. PZB indicators on some locos like the BR103 did work until DTG patched something in the core. It's quite a mess.
ok man this has blown my mind - encouraged by your post I decided to do a full run of Bludenz to Lindau, without safety systems, so I didnt have anything to bother me... there are like 3 neutral sections - one before Nenzing, one between Gotzis and Dornbirn and one thats crossborder since I was starting in Bludenz, I selected AUT 15kV... all three neutral sections WORKED... so I stopped a bit on the German side, deleted the loco, spawned it anew... and now, since I was starting on German side, I set it to GER 15 kV... and it... DIDNT WORK so this has got me thinking... so I tested Vectron with GER setting on other NS on the route... they DIDNT WORK... then again, even on German side, I set it for AUT 15kV... now even the crossborder NS worked soooo... I jumped right onto the Rosenheim-Salzburg route, testing Freilassing-Salzburg in both directions... first with GER setting, which DIDNT WORK... then restarted and put on AUT setting, and now it WORKED in both directions then I tried the Riesa neutral section (found on Reddit that it is around 71.4 and 71.6)... GER setting DIDNT WORK, AUT setting WORKED and last... I tried Vectron on Semmeringbahn... between St.Egyden and Neunkirchen... GER setting - nothing, AUT setting - bam, it worked so... my theory is that for some very weird reason, Vectron, when set to GER 15kV network, doesnt register neutral sections... but once you switch it to AUT 15kV network, it suddenly registers neutral sections... could it be that the script responsible for registering neutral sections, for their proper functionality, is somehow TIED to Austrian network? at least for Vectron I find this super-weird and... well, if it is true... then... how the hell is an average user supposed to find this out? P.S.: 1116 is a multisystem, but since it is based on 182, it doesnt register neutral sections under any network
Thanks for reporting this, if it only works with Austrian network selected that is definitely a bug and not intended. I will investigate in the editor One thing that I can't fix (not sure how relevant that is to what you described before) but spawning locos via formation editor/free roam unfortunately seems to break some stuff with how the pantograph detects voltage. Basically it seems to act as if the locomotive is on the Training Centre route where (afaik) overhead line voltages are "magic" and gives the locomotive whatever it wants. So in 1.5 kV mode you'd probably get 1.5 kV, in 25 kV you'd get 25 kV etc. This may break how the locomotive acts on a normal route if spawned in free roam/formation editor w.r.t. voltages. Nothing I can do about that. I haven't tested this aspect in a while so maybe it has been fixed already?
Not tested the Vectron, but since the Spring Core Update, various locos need you to lower and raise the panto again so voltage is detected in Freeroam. (ÖBB 4024 tested, though the panto is up initially, there's no power to it until you lower and raise it again. So whilst the panto appears to be up, Simugraph is not updated initially. A core issue.)
ok man, I admit I was partially wrong... I didnt know that in Free Roam this stuff gets broken... I have just finished testing Vectron in timetable mode, on Vorarlberg, Rosenheim and Riesa (aka services that naturally spawn Vectron in GER mode), and... it works now I am going to test the neutral section functionality in timetable mode, as in the light of your information, seems like the BUG was Free roam related... but will test this to be sure ... and if the testing proves I was wrong, I will of course update the threads I have since posted on this topic
thanks again for the information - didnt know about this particular issue in Free Roam... I tested routes with neutral sections, with timetable-d locos only... Vectron works consistently looks like... BR101 and ICE (tested 406) trip, but dont require MCB to close, only throttle reset... for good measure I also tried 146 on Riesa, and it worked sooo... looks like OBB 1116 was left out without a neutral section thing (probably that magic you put into Vectron), which is probably why this doesnt work on Semmeringbahn nor Rosenheim ok, I will update this in the topic about neutral sections I didnt really mean to spread misinformation, but yeah, didnt know that Free roam breaks the voltage/current thing cheers
here is the updated thread with fresh info on some locos looks like the problem wasnt in Neutral sections themselves but rather the Free roam thing... some older locos still dont register NS, but I tested those I usually play and they all seem to work, some if you fail to open MCB you have to close it, on some you just reset throttle my mind is at peace regarding this now tho kinda shame that OBB 1116 didnt get this functionality would love it if they added it in the future, be it the loco itself or later when RailJet hopefully comes
Thank you for taking the time to test this It's a relief to know that the Vectron is working as expected with regards to neutral sections in timetable mode. It's unfortunate that free roam still has this core bug, but hopefully it can be fixed by DTG. The other locomotives you mentioned I have not worked on except for the BR101 where I did the free TSW3 upgrade, but at that point in time neutral sections were not on the horizon
it would be nice if Taurus got updated with this function anyway, too bad Vectron still has very few passenger services in TSW, as it just begs to use its 200 kmh, 300 kN of tractive force and actually useful 240 kN e-brake
I have a question regarding the AFB behaviour under LZB on the Vectron. After braking for an LZB reduction, the AFB sometimes doesn't accelerate back towards AFB target speed, instead it gets into a kind of "speed hold" mode seemingly in anticipation of an upcoming brake curve. This behaviour goes away when I confirm the AFB set speed again; or if LZB upgrades to a constant speed (e.g. 120 for 4000+m) Is this prototypical behaviour to make the ride smoother/ reduce maintenance? In one instance, while running towards Wurzburg, AFB slowed down to 0 itself approaching Fulda following a slower train, even though LZB upgraded back to 100 as the train slowed through 80 kmh. The train came to a stop with some sort of commanded braking (electric + 4.3 BP) and didn't move even if I reset the throttle - confirming the AFB speed got the train moving again This behaviour seems to be the same as LZB braking to 0, so I suppose to question lies with why it decided it should stop at a random point (near the beginning of the Fulda platform) when the target speed was >70 kmh. Also, I've noticed that the AFB is also limited by PZB restricted monitoring (40 kmh) and 500 Hz (20 kmh). However, other speeds seems not to be adhered to (e.g. 65 under 1000Hz influence in PZB mode M). Is this also prototypical? Playing around with this improved AFB is quite fun, much more than the old one that's basically a tempomat connected to LZB. Still got a lot to learn though.
I'm pretty sure AFB should accelerate by itself again after an LZB stop if you have not touched the controls or braked yourself. I've just got Zusi3 running, will see how it works on the prototypical sim. ... haven't realised large parts of Hamburg - Lehrte have been updated to ETCS Level 2
This doesn't sound like it is intended. AFB should only lock out like that if you apply brakes yourself ("AFB Fahrschalterquittierung"), but I can't say for certain without knowing more details. It also sounds like one of those things that is nearly impossible for me to reproduce without knowing the exact steps. If you can find a test situation when this occurs and describe how I reproduce it myself I can test it in the editor and fix it (if it is a bug, as always I cannot say when/if this fix gets out to the public since that is not my call). Something like. 1. Start service XXXX on route YYYY 2. Enable LZB and AFB 3. Do A 4. Do B 5. Z happens I realize I'm basically asking you to be Q/A but unfortunately it's really the only way to be sure I encounter the same situation you are describing (unless it is something super common that happens all the time, but yours is the first anecdote of this I've heard). Alternatively if you can make and upload a video that shows all the steps you take that would also suffice. Regarding the PZB speed limits in AFB that is not quite correct (as I have learned lately). The Vectron will hold some additional PZB restrictions with AFB enabled. Note though that it only puts these limits from below, AFB will never brake for you with PZB.
Here's an edited video to primarily show the braking thing, the more I look at it, the more confusing it gets. (please excuse the broken text, rerendered thrice already ) Service: 50167 (chosen for its close proximity to heavy train in front) Simply drive until the left bend at Fulda to see if it happens. The video includes 3 tests that should cover all the cases. (3) It also includes a part on AFB being reluctant to accelerate back to set speed (2). Would also like to know what PZB restrictions AFB holds, tried having it help with a 65 by accelerating from <50 kmh, didn't work (not included in video, in separate (failed) recording) Thanks for your time in advance.
That's definitely a bug, but I'll have to investigate exactly where the bug is located since the interface between LZB and AFB is quite complex on the Vectron, and the AFB simulation in Simugraph is very complex, to be able to achieve all the details of the real thing (like different deceleration rates in freight vs passenger mode etc). You've given me a good starting point. Thank you very much for that Like I mentioned before, the AFB on the Vectron (in game), only holds the 25/45 speed restrictions from PZB... currently.
Hi guys. Did you know that the BR 182 form HKB has the same functionality? From the habit of Vectron I tap twice on the throttle and was surprised when I heard the signal
interesting... since you now mentioned it also on BR 101 Expert, I did some digging and found this thread among other things... what is this meant for? like prevent from rolling away? or applying undue stress on bogies or sth? but what is the logic/reasoning behind this? since I ALWAYS drive with AFB on if it is available in a loco, this is handy information for me
Releasing train brake can take up to few minutes in some cases, so stationary trains ready for departure (in stations, in front of a signal and so on) are held using loco brake, because that one releases in few seconds no matter the train type. You slow down to stop using the train brake, release the train brake at the moment of stopping and hold the train with loco brake instead. When departing, you just put loco brake to full release and you can go immediately into throttle, as it releases over 1-2 seconds (and also does not induce traction lock). AFB simply automates all of this for you. On sharper slopes the loco brake wouldn't be enough though, that's likely why Austria has train brake implemented in the process too, it's simply a hilly country.
ooh, so those 4.5 bars or sth that pop on that top gauge and stay even if I release train brake... thats the loco brake automatically applied by AFB? those usually release once I put throttle into like 15% or sth
cwf.green I added your name to a video that just about finished in editing and linking back to this thread because it was you and Fawx who assisted me and gave me the tips to do more research and learn about the Vectron. If you rather I do not do this, I will have the image with your name removed. I don't want to just do this without asking.
This is the Now Fixed RE50 4542 service Completed with the New BR193 Vectron DB in DB Red Livery, prior to this it was a long or wait not a redlight bug, it just looked like that and it is linked to this video.
