The Problem With Rivet

Then that is fair enough

 

Rivet have abandoned nearly every route and DLC they’ve released despite promises of fixes, why should I believe anything they say about Fife circle? West Cornwall, Arosa, E2G, Luzern. They were all abandoned barring paid gameplay packs that should’ve been included in the first place. Rivet needs to learn from Skyhook and how they handled MML. (Step 1: Don't dismiss customers giving feedback as stupid and not understanding of how things work).

 

just wanted to add in, that if the 385 was compatible with Cathcart (which it ain’t realistically) it’s a DTG route and would require them to do it.

it’s the same with Tees Valley and the 142 (minus the 142 is realistic)

 

I actually said I have complained in the past, I no longer bother because its the norm, every developer does it now so no point complaining about it, and to.be honest the route don't look that bad, it contains trains and you can drive them. Which is kind of the point.

 

I find him a bit of a whinger to be honest, often waffles on about totally irrelevant nonsense, never happy unless he is whingeing about something. Most of his opinion is worthless.

 

Is this satire?

 

To be fair, with the wild swings in quality over the years, ‘it has trains & you can drive them’ is about the only consistent standard left.

 

It wouldn’t shock me that driving them to be a bug, one can only hope such bugs is considered a priority not 12 months later if lucky standard.

 

It is what it is.

 

Sometimes he can get a bit too negative and demanding i.e complaining about grass textures when the actual scenery looks fairly accurate but a lot of his observations I agree on and he makes it clear I think about what routes are good and what routes could be better.

 

Well that's an edit that probably should've been there from the beginning. Doesn't improve a whole lot though.

 

Probably got a scathing from someone after they looked at the comments being left by rivet on their socials & forums.

 

definitely more responsibility expected by customers on accounts what are official. They are as responsible for developments as news articles.

 

I have no idea if the buildings are still like that in the release version, but regardless I've attached some screenshots of Gran Turismo 4 (2004) for comparison.



And as for Jasper's comment, I expect somebody is going to be having a word with him about it. Not appropriate, and not even true.

 

My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that a lot of the fan base have just grown tired of the same issues and excuses.

Let’s be fair, these DLCs are not cheap. Paying £25-£30 for most of these routes is just too much for the quality of them.

If I’m to pay £30 for something, I expect it to be a polished and finished product. But repeatedly we are seeing DLC which just feel rushed, full of the same bugs, and lacking in quality.

What I find frustrating is that DTG are happy to promote and showcase these products, which are clearly in a poor and unfinished state, but pretend like everything is fine. Even when features don’t work on a stream they skirt over it and move on. When customers make great suggestions on small tweaks or improvements the stock answer is most likely to be “no”, especially with Rivet. There’s no sense that the community is being listened to. Evidenced by issues that have been raised for years still occurring. I mean how hard is it to have a map with station names rather than just spaghetti with no labels!? There’s also no sense that content will be improved to the standard it should be after release. Sure a game breaking bug will likely be patched but will we see significant upgrades to the quality of the routes or added textures, unlikely. Maybe the odd small change but a lot these new routes need a good many more months of development.

When a developer is repeatedly highlighting working escalators and lifts etc as a big new feature, you know that they are scraping the barrel. Not saying these aren’t nice additions, but in what other game would this even be spoken of, never mind showcased or included in trailers.

Yet when we get a new feature that actually adds some meaningful content, ie announcements, these aren’t made standard for all new routes and don’t work consistently.

As I say, this is just my own opinion and others may not feel the same way as I do, but I do hope DTG just pause and take stock of the situation, because at the moment they are disappointing fans repeatedly. Great ideas but poor execution. Which is a real shame to have to say, as we all want the game to be as good as we know it can be. It just needs that little bit extra care and time before release, and make sure routes are up to a standard that is higher than we’ve come to expect of late.

 

Think I have to put this a bit into perspective - what I wanted to say it's more complicated that "simply fix something". Yes we need to fix certain things, without question. But this statement "I would have done it better" is doing what? Like it's neither valid critism nor helping anyone. And agreed, I might have gotten a bit emotional here, will try to hold myself back.

I never said that they don't understand it, it's more about the scope of these things. I imagine it's bigger than what you think (without trying to blame you, not your job - that's why you pay us money to do this stuff).

Hmm - not very true (just because we didn't update everything that you felt was important, doesn't mean there weren't any updates).

• Arosa: Got some updates improving the distant scenery (even if slightly), as well as the near track details plus some other stuff, see here: https://forums.rivet-games.com/foru...-arosa-line-chur-arosa-available-now?q=update
• Edinburgh - Glasgow: Larger update, see here for more details: https://forums.rivet-games.com/foru...ail-express-edinburgh-glasgow?p=9129#post9129 -> Unfortunately, no news on the Class 385 (which isn't good, I get that).
• Luzern - Sursee: Handful of updates actually, including two new scenarios - see here: https://forums.rivet-games.com/foru...zentralschweiz-luzern-sursee-out-now?q=Update

 

The Class 150 still needs work. Sounds nothing like it should so I wouldn't say it isn't true.

 

I can't explain why important things like the issues players raised already after a few minutes in the livestream got overlooked by someone who is mantaining/creating the product for months.

Wouldn't have proper Quality Control by either your own company or Dovetail Games have prevented what happened with the release and preview stream? Why are things not better prepared/concerned before releasing anything and conditions of the release are discussed or proofed thoroughly before it's being released to the public?

In the end, this could have saved you a lot of trouble and probably provided you way better (day one) sales.

Well, you could hire someone of us (I'm sure some people would even be happy with a free retail copy), if you ain't got sufficient developer for it to do. In this way it would help.

Apparently. But looking on some aspects of the release and some people just being excited to having a new route addon (actually their favorite route), I'm concerned about whether this really is the reason of what people are paying you for.

 

It is a sad state of affairs when a company representative tries to defend shortcomings in their products by demeaning the very customers who have bought them.

It would seem a major part of the problem is that many in the community have highlighted failings and errors in your previous products and have sadly become accustomed to requests for fixes being largely ignored. I am pleased that you recognise the fact that people PAY good money for your DLCs and as such expect them to be of sufficient quality to justify the outlay.

I also suspect that your slightly embarrassing back-pedalling (on what many perceived as grossly condescending comments) is in no small part due to the fear that some of that lovely money may not continue to head your way if you further alienate your customers beyond the obvious high level of discontent you have consistently achieved with previous releases.

 

Honestly there’s 0 point in trying to backpedal, you were making similar comments in several places & so have Rivets Mods on your forum. What was the particular one on instagram? Ah yes it “I haven’t seen that complaint yet” in regards to someone pointing out the very poor distant scenery? Pull the other one.

In any case, we could go back and forth for weeks (and I guarantee some people will), but no one’s really interested in it, what matters is what’s being done about this route, and your attitude as a company over the past week has not done you any favours.

Is anything being done about the 2D grass textures that are all over the route?

Is anything being done in regards to areas such as Edinburgh Airport, Queensferry Crossing & Burntisland?

Will we actually see a realistic timetable? Not 40 of this and 40 of that, but the actual real timetable for the 170?

Are we going to get at the very least, some static stock in Haymarket depot?

 

But SHG committed to doing a full job on MML because they want it to be the best it can be. Adam is still chipping away engaging in the forum and reading every post. In my opinion we just don't see that level of commitment from Rivet.

If Rivet could just engage with us more and make inroads into supporting their content more fully it'd go a long way amongst the community. Because we want your products to be amazing, we want FCL to be amazing. We know you can create fantastic content! Just sometimes things feel a bit rushed out and then straight onto the next thing

 

I would say they only recognised that people pay good money for whatever they throw in front of them. That's also the reason why there still is no apology for the level of quality put out.

 

All the services in the route's timetable are realistic and use the actual times, it's just that some services are missing.

 

I am desperate for this to be fixed. It's my fav loco in classic

 

The point is that freeware developers such as myself have few resources, no funding, and no monetary incentive to work. They just do it because they like it. Rivet, on the other hand, is a company that has capital to work with, has plenty of resources including direct support from DTG, and has a userbase that will be prepared to buy what you make regardless of what it is or how good it is. I don't have any of those (when working on freeware), and neither do almost all of the freeware developers in TS. I can go and find a dozen freeware routes that look and play better than this, that cost nothing to develop or to download. To deny this would be a disservice to the people who make content for TS for no monetary gain.

I know that the conditions for building the route were tight, but that doesn't excuse the state it's in. And you and I both know that most of the fixes and upgrades this route needs, along with all the other Rivet DLC, will never come out, despite trying to claim otherwise. If you'd swapped Fife Circle in this discussion with West Cornwall, nothing would have changed. We've been here before and we'll be here again.

 

Luzern - Sursee: you hyped ETCS so much before release. I only have one question: is it working correctly today? We both know the answer. The most important aspect is still broken. No one is interested in this fluff above. You and your company's ignorance is beyond my understanding.

 

I'll buy everything Skyhook and JT put out on release at full price because I trust them and trust that they genuinely will fix any issues that inadvertently slip in.

Rivet? Don't make me laugh, and this thread, and the responses from Rivet's representative have just reinforced that lack of trust.

I bought West Cornwall and Edinburgh - Glasgow and wasn't entirely impressed. The way this route has been handled has ensured that at best I'll buy it in a sale, maybe not at all.

I really see no reason why we shouldn't expect all paid DLC to meet the standards of Blachpool Branches.

 

Blackpool branches is a stunning route you can see they put so much time into it and not rushed it out

 

Consumers should be able to expect a consistent level of quality for the price they pay.

 

FWIW: Blackpool Branches is 20% off for PS players. I'd definitely go for it (hell, I paid full price with NO regrets)!

 

I am desperate to get this route. It’s a route I know very well and live close to the Edinburgh end.

But I’m honestly sick of the state routes are being delivered in. For £30 I don’t expect perfection and I absolutely expect bugs. But I don’t expect half a timetable, missing significant parts missing ie. The airport & scenery of a standard seen 10 years ago.

Rivet do a lot of things well, the models of the trains are pretty consistently very good.

If they do deliver the full timetable, populate Haymarket depot, sort the airport and improve the scenery, they’ll get my money.

 

I bought Edinburgh to Glasgow a few days ago with the plan of also getting Fife Circle but the negative reviews so far have very much put me off . I watched the stream for Fife last week and whilst some of the scenery such as the bridge are recreated very well , the state of the airport really surprised me! And no planes! I know it’s not the end of the world with the airport but for such a significant place next to the railway line I think it could really have had much more attention!

Edinburgh to Glasgow isn’t bad but the sounds of the train do let it down unfortunately, however I thought the scenery was fine mostly .

I’m in the same boat as many others I want to buy Fife circle but would really like to see some more improvements / patches before taking the plunge .

 

Edinburgh to Glasgow has a few things that if fixed would imo make it a very solid route.

 

I'm afraid to say it and at this point, I don't care but the damage has already been done

You are a representative of Rivet Games and it doesn't matter if you thought the criticism was unjust or if you thought it was too harsh, you still represent Rivet Games and anyone new coming in here, coming to see, oh is it worth buying, and then saw what you wrote, they'd turn and walk off in the other direction and say, no, no thank you

There are a lot of other people that work in a job that are customer service based, myself included. I work for a company that handles rail replacement bus duties here in the UK and a lot of my time, I am dealing with sometimes frustrated customers who have either missed buses or missed connections and no matter how angry or how frustrated they get, I have to remain professional.

If I turned around and said to one of my customers who missed a bus, oh tough (insert word of choice here), what do you think would happen to me? I would be straight in front of my boss and I would be straight out of the door, feet wouldn't touch the ground. That is just the cold and heartless reality of the situation you created with that statement and the fact that the relationship between the players and Rivet is already tense, I feel that is the best word to use, given past routes, past errors and just that one statement might have fractured it beyond repair

As it stands for me right now, there is only one way that you are going to be able to fix this situation; I know what it is, other players know what it is and I think you do as well, it's up to you to put that into some form of motion

 

Rivet's total PR meltdown just starts to make me believe that Bernina was an accident.
A very fortunate accident, as they happen from time to time - the best cuisine recipes are fortunate accidents - but still an accident.
Now they seem to be back to business as usual.
A pity, really.

 

Ah a bit like my attempts at rice pudding. All the ingredients are there, but the first one took ages to set, then I overdid did it and came out like polyfilla plus too much nutmeg. Second attempt was too runny, tried to finish in the microwave put on for too long and splattered it everywhere. Wife in a foul mood with me for the rest of the day.

Next attempt will be on the hob in a milk pan... here's hoping. Or I'll open a tin of Ambrosia!

 

If you know the Bernina and have traveled on the line a few times, you would realise that Rivet’s work on it is way off. Rivet do, do some nice modelling in their routes in parts, but completely fail with the rest, showing most locations to look incorrect as though they cannot be bothered to make it look right.

I would like to know why Rivet think it's OK to release sub-standard products every time and ask gamers to pay the full price. I would never, since their appalling mess of West Cornwall Local, pay full price for a Rivet route, wait until you see it in the sale. Long time gamers of the game will wait as they have plenty to play with, rather than purchase a totally broken and poor Rivet rendition until it’s a fair sale price.

If Rivet can model the Forth Bridge so magnificently, then they should be able to apply the same expertise to the rest of their routes which lack attention to detail. Perhaps they got a professional designer to replicate the Forth Bridge for them, possibly because they knew the couldn’t do it. We shall never know.!!

What disappoints me about Rivet, is that they make a lot of errors in their routes that gamers who know them well point out, but Rivet never do anything about correcting them. Every Rivet route released to date lacks attention to detail and are so unpolished and unfinished.

 

Well I still can't bring myself to buy what amounts to just over half of what I would regard as "The Bernina Line". At best I might think about it at 50% or better off in a sale, but to me it's just another instance of Rivet not really being fit for inclusion as a payware development partner. As you say, unpolished, unfinished and pretty much abandoned. Quite why DTG indulge them I really don't know, they must have some leverage we are not party to.

 

Sorry OldVern, UK .......... british ............ cuisine? Is there a link? ( ...... just yanking your chain).

Of course, most of this is folclore but I think there´s some truth to it. As a German I like the "beer accident" best.

https://www.easyveggieideas.com/blog/9-famous-foods-you-wont-believe-were-made-by-accident

https://www.tapasmagazine.es/en/these-well-known-recipes-arose-from-mistakes-in-the-kitchen/

 

Easily the most unrealistic train within the TSW series. Physics clearly wrong and the sounds not a patch on the Class 150 in TS. Almost everything about this unit needs work

 

Everything about the route too.

 

Totally agree

 

You're right in your assumption that I´ve never traveled the Bernina Line. And thus, have no criteria to judge its truthfulness to the original. (The sim route has put that visit onto my to-do-list, though.)

But your argument doesn´t come up for the first time and I continue to find it weak.
Because 98% of all the players never saw and never will see those sim routes in real life. Trains Sim World, for now, is restricted to three main regions with players all around the world. And that might be the reason why most TSW route designers and publishers simply neglect important original details. What seems "important" to the natives, but not to me since I'm ignoring them.

You'll probably nail me to a sim cross (Happy Easter BTW!) when I tell you that I pretty much enjoy the WCL from time to time because I think the stations are nicely modeled and the scenarios somewhat out of the box. They escape from the usual A-B runs. You can even have a decent night run without staring into a black hole (SoS). And since Truro Cathedral has been fixed (yeah that one was causing eye cancer, I give you that) I even enjoy a look from the bridge there.

I've seen some cab rides from Bernina. And I find some sections pretty much on spot in the Rivet route. Anyway, C64 cardboard like buildings, grass and textures can't be found there. Instead, the mountains seem quite nicely modeled and the route performance is notably good. It would be grand if the route went all the way to St. Moritz. But that's about my only more serious complain.

 

https://www.lifeloveandsugar.com/creamy-old-fashioned-rice-pudding/

 

I think what he wanted to point out is simply that a route isn't realistically recreated enough, if you ever was there in real life and know the scenery. And this is a true concern. But there's also no much more drama to it I think.

I kind of agree to you both, because yes let's say 98% of players either were never nor will ever be at its real life counterpart and this plain fact makes them kind of "uncapable" (if I can call it so) to not really being able to estimate authenticy correctly. However, exactly this authenticy is what makes a DLC or route unique to another and gives a reason why it even exists.

If I wouldn't be willing to create a scenery as authentic as its possible to my own hands, I would ask myself as a developer, Why the hell am I wasting my time and am even creating it?

There so much more you could do in your life than half heartedly creating a route.

But I guess, yes, companies like Dovetail and Rivet have a fairly simply answer to that nonetheless.

But they don't seem to realize that the attention to detail is the vital source for generating an income with it. What else let's the majority of customer purchasing a DLC as opposed to another? Is it really only working tracks and signals to dash your units on the map and make them run (which is strangely quite often raised in the Forum for buying a new DLC for and which I think is a way weaker argument)?

I definitely think not.

 

I partly agree too. I can't say whether this house or building is exactly there or not. Logical.

But that is only half the truth. Because I was and probably never will be there - in person (although it is a great place), but even someone who has never been there can see how carelessly everything was designed. Edinburgh Airport is not that unknown and if you know that it is right on the track, well. I also notice the terrible design of the rural area with the same vegetation, the poor textures without grass and the copy-and-paste rocks, and I never have to have been there. These things jump right in your face.

Anyone who turns right and left during the game with their eyes open will notice this. Some people like it that way, maybe they don't even care, for others it's not enough.

 

I haven't gone through the whole thread or studied the pages of debate across multiple threads, but simply the problem with Rivet is that they don't meet customer expectations, whether that's route quality, fixes or customer interaction. Until they address this customers will vote with their wallets. Any company that doesn't meet expectations will face an uphill struggle to regain it and will ultimately fail.

I do hope this doesn't happen and that they can develop the skills to produce good quality routes and trains going forward.

I bought Fife Circle, I enjoy driving the route and the train, but it's clear to anyone that it's not up to recent standards. I don't mind, I can afford it and will get £30 of pleasure from it. But I can understand those who were dearly looking forward to the route and are disappointed by it. After all each route tends to be visited but once and this is the version of Fife Circle that will remain in TSW going forward.

Having said that, some of the vitriol and bile on these forums are unnecessary. We have unkind words aimed at Rivet staff, DTG staff, ambassadors and fellow community members. Remember words have impact.

Happy Easter to those who are celebrating. Enjoy the game.

 

I have been playing this for two days and it’s alright in some ways, but it’s not a fair price for what Rivet have presented to us. I understand that there is an update coming this weekend and apparently Rivet will lets us know their plans for improving the route in the next roadmap.

Like all of Rivet routes they feel rushed, unfinished and unpolished, there are some good points like the locomotive and the bridge modelling, but the textures are horrible and it looks unrealistic in quite a few places.

I certainly don’t think that Rivet should have released it, as it needs a few more weeks of hard work to bring it up to the standard we expect.

I feel that all their routes to date could be pretty impressive, if only they would work harder and not only pay attention to detail, but also pay attention to the current real scenery and implement it into their routes. In my opinion it shows they lack the passion and desire to present a decent product.

Once again they have upset the train sim world community with another sub standard offering that it’s about time that changes for the better. Rivet if you cannot deliver a first class product in future, then don’t bother at all. We don’t need or want your poor workmanship.

 

I would add at present, Rivet have a long way to go to match the standards of Blackpool Branches, where Tom has shown in his route building videos the importance of replicating the scenery and spending time giving attention to detail that is shown in all their routes. Also the DTG route London Overground is not far off in comparison to the Just Trains offering as well. This is the standard Rivet not only need to aspire to, but beat. I am sure Rivet would be very pleased if they exceeded this standard. I know we all would.

 

Whilst I don’t have the route, I’ve been thinking that myself, I think the lack of announcements holds it back form that but it’s a good contender regardless.