Enough Is Enough!!! The Ongoing Saga!!! 3 Year Anniversary

I personally wonder what the reason is, DTG always is bringing new trailers of Train Sim World (4) far behind the release of TSW4. This is not the first time.

The standard version were at 20€ sale during the february Festival of Rail event and now the Spring sale, and still I wonder why it apparently is necessary to on-going advertise the game to new customers?

Seems like TSW4 still is not selling as wanted/expected, despite the huge discounts of up to 70% off.

For the trailer itself. I would say it's not too bad. Also gives some interesting insights. Quite hidden funny moments there still, tough. My favorite: The Azuma on Bernina. All emphasized by a very enthusiastic man with strong american accent (although TSW still miss a lot of US content and is moreover Germany and UK focused).

Anyway, I think this was the longest time this thread were inactive with more than 4 days in total. You posted last time on Monday, now is Thursday. Seems like all the concerns went clearly only to on topic in the last 7 days.

 

Well, I still haven't bought it and I don't plan getting it either until it being included in a bundle or until Tadami comes out - if it comes out for TSW4 and not for TSW5/6, or maybe after it's announced that TSW4 will be removed from the store (due to release of TSW5). Last year I already got TSW3 by that time with a lower discount (-60% IIRC), but also for a lower price. Pretty trailers don't convince me to buy things and additionally more than half of what's included in the trailer is available for TSW2 & TSW3.

-70% off might be a "huge" discount for train simulators, but it isn't generally huge in comparison to other games available on Steam. The price is also still too high with the same discount level when comparing to other games having similar discount levels (at least in my region - Poland). For example during the Steam Spring Sale, although I still like driving trains, I much more preferred getting 9 other games with discounts between -40% and -80% off, from which each of them were at least half as cheap as the TSW4, and for TSW I finally got Horseshoe Curve that will give me some additional train driving under TSW2 & TSW3 with no need of getting TSW4 still.

 

Man we’re never getting to 100 *grumble grumble

 

Always hold out hope...

 

Create some massive drama then everyone will start talking

 

Things will pick up here once TSW5 is announced with “new” features that were already supposed to be part of TSW4 (looking at you suspension).

 

TSW 5 will have an updated LIRR and two more routes in addition.

 

Plenty of time for 100 pages before the release of TSW5 in late September; but yeah I thought we'd be there sooner.

 

I am always amused by this attitude. Because if we called that particular bluff, guess who'll be mad that their business is plummeting?

That's why we have so many new train sims now.

Hmmsim train simulator, for example, was made by ONE person. And look at the quality of that ONE route versus TSW.

 

"TSW5 features include improved suspension (coming later after release)"

 

I was not that impressed by HMMSIM, having used the previous version to run BVE routes on the iPad. Stopped at a station running a bit late and had the following train run through mine. So not only is there no collision detection, there is not even a basic signalling system in place that AI trains obey. It looks nice, though.

 

The desktop or mobile version?

The desktop version is pretty good. And it was only $20 (CDN).

 

Desktop. Yes it is quite cheap but when I posted on the Dev's FB page about the lack of AI trains obeying the signalling, did not get a very positive response. If it improves, I would buy it again.

 

You just replied to a week old message.

 

People don't need to be on forums every day, but once they are back they may feel the need to reply to a message they didn't see when they weren't here. For example I was away from the forums for a week recently, but I didn't feel any need to reply to any of the posts I missed when I returned.

But what a coincidence, at that time I was instead enjoying riding as a passenger on trains that are featured in Hmmsim Metro - the thing made by one person (and also some newer train models, which are not present in the sim) and also watched them them pass by from above from a couple of footbridges, but in the real life. Stations, overground sections & trains in the game are modeled really well, despite having different logos painted on the trains (not a game breaking thing for me), sounds are sounding really good too, when comparing the simulator to the real thing. Maybe only passenger windows have some less dark tint in the game than how I experienced them in the real life. Unfortunately no cab ride was possible to compare the cabs and views on tracks from there (for a cab ride, only Incheon line 2 that is ATO with a possibility of driver taking over would be easy for me to compare).

 

I see. I'm surprised by that.

 

I just got here.

 

And?

 

Hot dogs are just sandwiches

 

I feel like the recent years kind of gave us a pattern, so here's a scientifically accurate representation.

 

I use RW Enhancer and can confirm there’s absolutely zero performance hit with it. You’re likely getting your loss of FPS due to reshade which is notorious for that on any game and on any system. In my opinion, you don’t need to use both at the same time on TSC. RW Enhancer is the way to go and use it solo. Reshade will indeed just cause performance issues.

 

I don't really understand why you keep defending DTG and some 3rd parties all the time? The DLC release price is the equal of many brand new games that have nearly endless replayability by comparison. One of the biggest reasons behind the success of an old game like TSC is the fact that their routes are mostly complete with multiple stock running - you get several units hence completing the rail scene in that locale and fulfilling the label of a simulation, not to mention routes often 3 times the length of those sold in TSW. Put the effort in and the business will be there, act like some flustered incoming Chancellor of the Exchequer with no funds pleading prudence all the time, and in the case of DTG and Rivet you will lose money in the long run. I for one don't like to see the comparison between TSC and TSW as being different games, both come from the same company and yet are as different as chalk and cheese now. With TSW DTG seem to have brainwashed some customers into thinking that they should be grateful for what they have got and that a one train per route regime is necessary to prevent said company from going under. You're being brainwashed into accepting things like a 13 mile route with one train that was previously released as part of a much bigger N London Overground line, not by some competitor but by DTG themselves! It's hilarious that you seem to be arguing that this is now too much work for the same company. No what they have skillfully done is to wean you off acceptable practices with nice fluffy streams presented by loveable rogues who say all the right things and make the more gullible amongst us go all dewy eyed with admiration and defending their new business practices, which from where I'm sitting look like acclimatizing the gullible customers into accepting crumbs for price hikes.
DTG are very clever at PR - they say things like "the 700 can't be added to BML because of memory issues", this is an outright lie when talking about pc players as a very capable modder has proven. 700's now run on my BML in masses and really bring the route to life, with zero issues with memory, they could have done a timetable for pc players, but no it's not in their playbook, what is is do a usually short linear route from A-B, slap on a solitary train and sell it for 30 quid, then forget about it. Rinse and repeat. When they do do a decent length route (Rivet) they forget to put the scenery on properly and to brutalize the timetable. I think in an ideal world they would have us driving a solitary new train up and down the track with nothing else on the line. Just think of the profit gains in doing that.
It is not true that trains are a niche market for DTG in the sense of a lack of player sales when you consider that they are selling across multiple platforms not just pc, that is a myth. TSC managed quite alright thank you with just pc players, and gave far better value for money, ok there were no timetables but instead we had a user friendly editor. The other thing they did successfully was to appeal to a much wider audience especially American players, in TSW US players are literally being fed crumbs, and the other big audience in China is not being catered for at all.
Of course the rolling stock we pay good money for should be adapted into older routes timetable mode, they are not a charity we are paying them a more than fair price to do so. One of the big selling points of the game (and one that is actually included unlike a working editor and functioning suspension) is the timetable mode, hence the hefty price bracket for the game, not to mention players funding core improvements every year. You over-egg the complexity of building a timetable for an older route, DTG staff are getting paid a good wage to do something that a solitary individual managed with the 700 and BML on his own without being paid. Again DTG made such a fuss about the complexity of doing this for NYT and BML that the gullible amongst almost feel sorry for them!
Finally your comment about a new route not selling better with 2 trains is flawed, I for one would buy FCL now at full price if it included even the rehashed 158 in just a new skin. As it is I'm holding off until that happens because I simply don't trust these people to actually do it until it's done. Given the apparent laziness of Rivet in producing a decent FCL from what I've seen and read, I shall be waiting for a sale on that one too. You might think that's ok because DTG/Rivet are overworked or some such myth, I know that I will repay devs like JT that come along and produce a fantastic multi faceted route, not only introducing a new train but also adding new models of two other locos on the route, including timetables for them. The result was a masterpiece that will live on forever as the yardstick by which this game should be judged. In so doing as a small company they have exposed the flaws of DTG. I don't think the problem lies with the DTG staff at the sharp end who all seem very decent people (or good actors) but rather higher up from accountants to CEO. Perhaps you should consider a career with DTG on PR? Telling us all how lucky we are to have a 13 mile route with just one train, and how much work was involved in adding brief glimpses of Azuma's and 700's crossing above the Suffregette/Goblin line?
If DTG had followed the menu of TSC with more rolling stock and longer or more diverse routes, then believe me they would be raking it in now. They have the monopoly on this sort of thing you know. Even if they'd kept the policies of TSW and TSW2 going they would be doing better, where they released a route and then added rolling stock to it afterwards as dlc complete with timetables, then they would sell like hotcakes. The reason why routes like E-G are so boring is because empty lines between Scotland's two major cities don't amount to anything that can be described around the term "Train Simulation World".
I'm afraid that people who defend DTG like you are likely doing more harm than good in the long run.

 

1123 words, 6000+ charachters.... Wow

 

Wow indeed! Post would have benefited from paragraphing so readers could take a breath.

However, he makes some interesting and valid points about the skewed relationship between DTG and its customers. Worth struggling through.

 

The points made are all valid, but if TSW is defficient and TSC has so many good points, isn't there an obvious solution. Even if it means buying a PC if you're a console user?

 

But not everyone can afford that and not many would be willing to do so when they've already invested in TSW on their console.

 

Poor sods that brought volume 4!!!! Suspension will behind the 5th paywall when full cemented.
Bpo was the way forward yet DTG went to a nappy 13 LOVE! Promised everything to it... ghost route AGAIN. Even fife circle is a joke! You wanna have LOVE, god bless you... tsw4 been a disaster. Wait for 5 or 6 and been promised they said about 4. Dtg = donald trump

 

I have read some stupid things on here over the last few years but this reaches a new level!

 

DTG sometimes remind me of politicians. Overpromising and not delivering is something they have done on a number of occasions.

 

I’m not defending anyone. I’m just not ignoring many things that are facts when I evaluate TSW. I see many things wrong with it but I don’t always agree with some of the headline ‘why TSW is rubbish’ things that people always bring up.

You mention how TSC had more content for this route. While it is true that it was combined with another Overground route for the TSC version you may be unaware that it had no timetable covering 24 hours. It would have come with a handful of scenarios and the rest was up to you or other customers to provide the rest. That was how many people had been ‘brainwashed’ (not how I think but using your term so you can understand better) into thinking train simulators had to be.

Most members of the forum know how much more goes into the development of TSW content than TSC. It has been described as ‘orders of magnitude’ more work. Knowing that, you could argue, and I do, that TSW got a much more complete package than TSC for the money. But for the point yore making, matching TSC’s content in length and extra stock would be too much work for the price we pay. If we paid more then they could match it and more because of the timetable and such but then this is priced to be affordable, not in the hundreds of pounds it would have to be.

In simplistic terms, TSC generally delivers more, with longer routes and more trains, but that’s about it. The actual game isn’t better than TSW. For people who like to tinker with things and create their own services then TSC versions appears to have more. The trains are much more simple to construct and are much more simple in their simulation and for the best of the best you have to pay a premium, a much bigger cost than the standard content. They do provide good value for money and arguably more than TSW’s trains because most people using either game won’t appreciate the extra that TSW has going on behind the scenes and some offer some more things to twiddle with in the cab. Some TSW trains are better than others in this regard too.

Both games are as good as each other in many ways and offer differences in how they are presented, and due to the much more involved dev process that TSW requires, the end products, the DLC, aren’t as big and can’t be released with a stack of trains, which is a shame but it is a fact. Many people prefer TSC but I never got on board with it because I could see that it is a tinkerer’s game and I’d had enough of that with Trainz, which used the exact same model as TSC. TSW is much better for me, even if lots of things are still not working as well as they should. It has a fully working timetable but yes, in many cases fewer trains per route to fully populate everything. Compromise.

Let’s not pretend everything was all rosy with TSC either. The two games share inadequacies because developing train simulators is difficult and lots of compromises happen.

As for being brainwashed into accepting TSW’s version of Goblin, not a chance. It is fantastic. I don’t just automatically compare it to TSC because I know the two can’t really be compared, so it not having the other line doesn’t even come into it. I’d love it if it did but it still has great value for money and I don’t have to go elsewhere for drivable content for it, no enhancement packs to buy, just great simulation and a 24 hour timetable of services to keep me occupied.

I will mention what you say about JT’s route and I agree it has a lot for the money and at a very high standard, plus it had enough of DTG’s older BR Blue content to fully fill out the timetable. It was very likely developed in a different environment, as I doubt JT had to pay all the people making it hourly at the going rate for the industry. They can work for as long as they like to get it finished being largely self employed enthusiasts, whereas DTG have to stick to a budget for everything they do because they are doing it all commercially and fully paid for, as are Rivet, which is why their content comes out rather lacking in polish.

I may not have articulated all of that very well because I’m tired but I think most of it makes sense. You won’t agree with any of it though as I’m only saying what I said before. The main thing is - TSW is different to TSC. Better or worse, it’s better in many ways, worse in some others.

 

Nonsense, TSW100 is on course for a 2119 release!

 

Donald Trump makes DTG look like Rockstar Games or EA.

 

People who use terms like "brainwashed" are just trying to belittle people as they can't believe that people can possibly enjoy content they feel is not good enough. It is a way of invalidating an opposing argument. We can see a new trend where some users are now labelling those who bought FCL as selfish as we should be standing in solidarity with them not enjoying ourselves and spending our money as we see fit! Apparently it is for the good of the "community" but will end up causing more division and rancour.

 

If only people realised that assassinating characters isn't a good way to get people on-side, eh?

 

I mean purchasing the route certainly doesn’t aid peoples arguements

 

Neither does hurling insults at people's intelligence to be frank.

 

I'm sorry, the idea that TSC's trains are all more simply simulated than TSW's is pish.

 

What arguments? Those purchasing the "routes" are not creating the arguments.

It is fine to like something, it is fine not too. What in my opinion, is not acceptable, is to start trying to cast those who purchase content as some kind of selfish idiot who is causing some kind of harm to whatever this "community" is supposed to be!

I think some on here should just get over the fact that many just enjoy driving trains and enjoy train-simming as a hobby and maybe not all content is perfect but often good enough for many. That doesn't make them brainwashed, but they want to spend money on a hobby then get enjoyment out of.

All this anger and bitterness will do is push people away from the forums and you will just be left with a few angry people shouting at their computer screens in what will become a smaller and smaller echo chamber.

 

Erm excuse me im not sure why you just wrote an essay but an argument doesn't have to be a fight.

A debate between 2 people is 2 people that have opposing arguments (opinions).

 

I wondered what you meant when you said purchasing the route does not help peoples arguments? Whose arguments does it not help?

 

They have less going on behind the scenes. The results may be better than TSW trains in many cases but the process is likely to be much easier to do. Developers have said as much themselves. I’m only going off what I’ve read.

 

Those saying we need to hold back on purchasing sub par routes to send a message to the devs. I personally agree. Rivet should not have received £0.01 until they brought that route up to par.

 

It does feel like the general discourse of this situation has shifted from wondering how Rivet have managed to do this again to also include going after people that at least wanted hands-on with the route before joining in, which is where my will to pick a side in the debate leaves me. Don't get me wrong, there are some people that can't read the room, but also some that don't realise having a debate =/= insulting others.

 

Different people have different expectations.

What one thinks is poor quality, another thinks its the best thing since sliced bread.

 

I mean no matter what anyone said people were gonna buy it because of the 170. They did poor on the route because they know people will buy it

 

Defintely. The Devmares CC40100 was spectacular, incredibly well detailed and with clearly a huge amount of effort put into it. There are others as well like the really well done steam locos by Smokebox, Bossman Games and Victory Works (although for the latter their engines causes really bad stuttering on my computer which plays everything else fine, so it's a double edged sword).

You've shot yourself in the metaphorical foot there. The physics simulation in TS is simpler but if it's possible to make incredibly realistic trains with it, surely that should be the baseline for TSW as well? But despite this, the steam simulation is an oxymoron - the Kuju steam locos in Rail Simulator are more realistically simulated than the ones we have in TSW - and quite a few non-steam trains just don't drive as they should. The Class 377 was far too quick when it came out, the original Class 47 had too much traction, the NTP Class 47 didn't work in timetable mode on console for a long time because of how underpowered it was, the HST and 166 were both too quick, and the BR204 was known to be non-functioning before it released but no attempt was ever made to fix it. And there are countless other instances of trains that are too fast, too slow, that brake too quickly, that don't brake as much as needed, etcetera...

So to defend the developers of these trains (in particular DTG) that just don't put enough work to get the trains working properly by saying that the software is too complicated is hilarious. They made the software!

 

THIS ^

i dont get why they made things as complicated as it is. Sometimes it feels like this is limiting way more than it brings benefits.

Steam is a great example. Because of their super complex simugraph, we can enjoy quite decent physics (at least on most locos) but simugraph was so complex that they failed to correctly implement steam physics.

What i get is that sometimes TSC feels way more realistic even though the simulation behind it seems way more simple than TSW.

 

We're arrived at page 93

 

Let's put some reality check onto such timetable though - the trains in it are running in set intervals throughout most of the day, that's how it works IRL as well, you know you train comes every 15 minutes, it's convenient. But it means the services will mostly be copy-paste (not all, just the bulk). Which also makes it a lot easier to create, as you can... copy-paste, they've shown that that is possible.

That is a VERY BOLD claim. So DTG DLCs have to be mid because surely JT staff had to work for free overtime to make a better product. No way they could simply do it correctly WHILE being paid for that.

 

The latest post on Instagram...
So we are still in TSW3 ?