The Problem With Rivet

Be careful traindori, Rivet don’t like posts depicting their appalling errors, Jasper has banned me from their website forums for a similar graphical posting. Isn’t he being so childish. Rivet should stand up and admit their work is poor or do something about correct it. At least with DTGs help Fife Circle is being revised, lets hope that they improve their other routes and bring them up to a better standard. DTG did with West Somerset and I liked the previous version, it was still head and shoulders above Rivets standards.

 

Laughable likes.

 

Not buying Fife Circle until they actually update it or its on like 60% discount

 

Same

 

80% fire sale…

 

Luckily, DTG don't ban users for criticizing their work. Rivet seem way too sensitive and can't seem to handle criticism of their poor work

 

Thank you Sam. Rivet do treat their customers appallingly. If they were good route designers, there wouldn’t be so much apathy among the community concerned their shoddy work.

 

Seems all those 'independent' developers are very touchy. HIS, DTM, TBT, Götz, et al.

 

My friend said to me that to be good at one thing (TS development for example) means you might not be as good at other things (talking to people, taking criticism, etcetera). He's probably right.

 

And some of us first remeber when 3DTS morphed into Run 8 Studios and released the first iteration of their game of the same name. They had their own forum and as soon as anything critical was posted or even a slight comparison with any other product, they were deleting and suspending or banning users. Not surprisingly the forum didn't last long. Even now at Trainsim dot com you have to tread carefully in the Run 8 area as the mods responsible for it will jump on any off topic banter or too much discussion or comparison with other sims. So while I play and support Run 8 where I can, the parochialism and protectionism can sometimes make me feel like it's not worth bothering with.

Guess what I'm saying in relation to Rivet is, if your product is good then it will stand its ground - getting defensive and shutting down valid and constructive criticism just shows a raw nerve has been touched and there's something to hide.

 

Is it still illegal to mention the king of all touchy developers ("metal equestrian dwelling")?

 

Wow this thread is a real dogpile!
Agree with a lot of comments but I have to say I play IoW ‘22 and Berninalinie regularly and still enjoy them.

 

You mean Steel Pony Cottage? No, not illegal. It just wasn't allowed on a now defunct site that was once popular.

For new readers the real name was Iron Horse House, a former developer of TSC content.

 

Not allowing community members to post criticisms is a definite red flag. DTG is far from perfect, but at least they don’t censor us (unless we are being personal and needlessly rude). Rivet don’t deserve any money from any of us with their attitude.

 

From a business perspective, banning criticism is a massive own goal. The criticism doesn't go away, it just moves to a forum where you aren't in control.

Allowing people to sound off here allows DTG to see where the problems are and try and manage it, whereas banning it would just lead to a more toxic environment elsewhere outside of their control.

If it is here, and unfair, then there will be plenty of rebuttal.

 

LOL

That guy threatened to sue people for criticizing his products, didn't he?

 

But you definitely have to praise DTG for allowing a lot of criticism (and praise of course) here. The moderators only intervene if it becomes ultra irrelevant or offensive. Rivet really hasn't been covered in fame in the last few weeks, rightly so in my opinion. DTG could have closed the gates, but they left them open.

After the criticism of the poor Maintalbahn, they probably stepped up their game a little more and delivered well with Vorarlberg and Goblin. I hope the Semmering continues like this.

 

speaking of maintalbahn. hope they step their bugfixes game up a bit too since that desiro GSMR is still in Austria after a lot of mentions...

 

He was threatening to sue the forum if people were critical of his DLC. Good luck with that, as in English law you can't defame things, but I guess the site didn't want the bother of defending a meritless action, so they banned any discussion of the products.

 

IIRC the models and cabs were really good, but the sounds were off by some margin. I eagerly bought the Sulzer Type 2’s but really didn’t feel they matched my own recollections of the noise they made. And yes there was definitely some unpleasantness between UKTS and IHH though probably left to RIP at this point.

 

I'm a bit mixed if I'm honest. I think some people have been incredibly picky over certain elements regarding Rivets DLC. Whilst yes I agree some of the stuff such as wrong assets and some fields are absolutely too bland, some people have been pointing stuff out like clipped assets (roads, buildings etc) and alike which you see in other, in some cases successful, DLC.

I dont agree in them removing your post or whatever happened but some of the stuff people have been calling out has been kinda silly IMHO.

I ultimately came to the conclusion FCL suffered greatly from poor time management and whilst the route has strong points, it need another 2-3 months of dev time to get it to a higher standard.

 

Is this true? Is there any evidence of this?

 

The trainsim.com thread where IHH responded in the aftermath of the UKTS drama is still available - note that he seemed to be mainly concerned that he wasn't allowed to insult people back...

 

It was on the UKTS forum, not this one. The UKTS forum did have a bad track record when it came to deleting critical posts, possibly indirectly influenced by Matt Peddlesden's involvement with both sites.

 

I remember that. He especially got really touchy about the sounds. Which I didn't think we're completely bad but they weren't great either. And you could tell he was very protective of them because of the way he arranged the sound files.

 

Agreed. His models were actually some of the best. I didn't like the DTG re-releases of his stuff because the skins looked too bright and cartoonish. The sounds were copy/paste though.

Last I heard, he was working on a train sim that actually looked pretty interesting.

 

The models were often quite inaccurate. Not bad when just looking at the polycount, and the variety was very good, but many models just aren't great. The sounds were horrible as well.

As far as the game is concerned, the last post relating to it was in 2021, so it's best to assume the project is dead. The game wasn't actually a train simulator, rather a 3D signalling simulator. A bit like SimSig but on a smaller scale, and in 3D obviously. It did look interesting but it'll probably never come out. I think it almost did as part of some game competition (and in fact a manual was released by him for it) but from what I've found the game has never left his hard drive and probably never will.

 

"I can do it legally... the site is legally responcible because it moderates and influences content. therefore it takes responcinility for what is on the site (in UK law at the moment it would possibly be a defence if no moderation took place and the forum was merely an open canvas for a free for all.."

 

I think it’s safe to mention now I did a short period of beta testing for the WIP game and what was there was very good. But sadly it suddenly dried up, the updates and communication stopped so assume the project ended.

 

Does anyone remember EuropeanBahn? Rivet have their issues but they are far superior to EB

 

Your particular complaints with EuropeanBahn are?

 

Ah yes, arguments on UKTS with "Ken", I think it was, about some aspect of their Brighton line. Another over protective developer who couldn't take criticism. Though the wooden spoon of MSTS payware was undoubtedly Abacus with the possible exception of the Trainsim Modeller package.

 

I remember me and my Brother had pre-ordered the GWML from them (Paddington to Swindon IIRC) but when we mentioned a few issues with earlier releases (such as the 170 being insanely rapid even at Notch 1) I got an email from Ken saying they had refunded us and blacklisted our address to ensure we didn't have anymore purchases from them lol.

 

The 170 being too rapid, signalling being placed in the middle of the track, scenery being wrong, sounds were dire etc etc etc.

The 91 and Mark IV set for example, the Loco was smaller and narrower than the Carriages

 

Me too.

 

Not to defend anyone, but before you blame Rivet for everything and make them responsible for the disastrous release, DTG should officially confirm that each partner has all the time in the world to complete a Route or a DLC.

Did the publisher (DTG) perhaps set too tight release dates for third partner? Is DTG perhaps putting pressure on partners to release DLC as soon as possible? I haven't read any of this yet to confirm or not confirm.

Of course you want longer routes, more and more different vehicles, but all this takes development time. A new DLC cannot simply be printed out.

Just imagine every TSW developer working on different routes with a length of several 100km and the visual environment of the Goblin Line at the same time.
We wouldn't have any new DLC for at least 1 or 2 years and the playerbase of TSW wouldn't play the game anymore, whether you want to hear it or not. There would also be no more big sales for this Game wich means the Game is death anytime soon.

I think why we always get such short routes without a large network of rail lines is to keep the game alive. And I also believe that DTG sets certain deathlines for when a DLC MUST be ready and that's why the quality varies so much. And then it also depends on how many employees a developer has and what they can achieve by the deadline.

And again, i dont want defend Rivet or Skyhook or DTG itself, but i think the political idiology of the Main Developer is very strange at the Moment. I am very unhappy with the whole TSW Situation at the Moment, so i havent bought TSW4 till today. The Reason is not Rivet's quality, but the Price and DLC Politic from Dovetailgames.

Ok, if DTG give an official statement, that every third partner get every time they need to build a DLC without a Deathline, than is the flame on the FCL DLC in the right place and on spot. But till then i dont blame Rivet alone for poor Quality.

 

Rivet and other developers still have a chance to right things after release but Rivet never do. There are so many complaints about errors since and experienced by the community that Rivet ignore and never put right. I have voiced about WCL a local route l know extremely well, which has been totally ignored by Rivet. I have approached them by email in a pleasant manner and although they never have responded, Jasper decided to ban me for six months from their forum. That just throws fuel on their fire. They don’t like or support their customers. If they were hurried by DTGs to release WCL, they have had three years to correct it and haven’t bothered to date. How long do they need!!

l have no objection to short routes, the London Overground and others are a joy to drive but what saddens me is the poor replication of scenery that Rivet do all the time. If all developers produce routes as good as Blackpool Branches by Just Trains, this game will go from strength to strength. We saw a good offering in DTGs London Overground and I think the Austrian route looks to be in the same mold. Niddertalbahn was excellent and Fife Circle would be much better if the trackside scenery had been developed by Just Trains or DTG and following the appalling and laughable first streaming of the fife circle, DTG have now taken control to get it rectified.

This game is really good but the standards are much higher now and for £29.99, the developers must strive for excellence to keep customers happy. If Just Trains can do it, so can others too.

 

I´am on your side...

BUT:

Nobody knows the contracts for third party developers. Do you know whether the contracts require that they have to release a certain amount of DLC within a certain period of time in order to remain in the partner program itself? And then it depends on the number of employees again.

If DLCs have to be released within a certain period of time because Dovetailgames contracts stipulate it, then there is simply no time for large-scale updates. In such cases, the updates are ultimately just updates to make customers a little happier so that the next DLC can be sold and not to generate even more revenue.

But if DTG says that in order to stay in the partner program, you have to release the next DLC at a certain interval after the release, it's no wonder that there are so few updates for released DLCs. But as I said, none of the customers know the terms of the contract and I maintain that Rivet or other partners are not solely to blame for the poor quality, Dovetailgames alone has to bear some of the blame.

None of us customers know whether Just Trains will ever bring out another route, perhaps they have already left the partner program themselves because they would not be able to achieve this quality a second time.

 

Nor do we have any evidence that your assertion is correct, and out experience with Skyhook and JT would seem to support the fact it is Rivet.

 

Exactly, JT took their time and it came out amazing. The wonderful words at release of Blackpool was something I had never seen before and probably never will again

 

How do you explain the wonderful JT Blackpool Ormskirk route, or the fact Skyhook has committed and has vastly improved MML since release? Once Rivet release a shoddy product, it’s more or less abandoned.

 

If that were really the case, why can small development teams like TSG or JT produce high quality DLC (from the start) and Skyhook greatly improve their DLC in retrospect? That doesn't add up. It is probably also up to the third-party developers themselves if such tight deadlines are agreed to. At the expense of quality.

 

The issue is that its just been classic Rivet at this point though. They do this over and over again. Which is frustrating because we know they can do it right and do it well. I'm tired of trying to give Rivet the benefit of the doubt. Especially seeing the comments from Jasper and other Rivet team members. It was obvious that FCL was rushed out to meet the end of the financial year.

They just do not follow up the same way SHG did for MML (which is now absolutely fantastic). And I can't see them ever interacting in that way with the community. They do just tend to fire and forget with a lot of their content

 

Rivet’s Jasper said that they would release news of what will be included in an update in tomorrow’s Roadmap. Skyhook have announced that they have excited news to be announced in the Roadmap.

Just hope Rivet will right their scenery flaws in FCL but not confident that they will improve it.

 

Hopefully a Class 56, Class 60 or Sheffield extension to MML!

 

I also think they'll extend the route, but I don't think they'll add new units.

 

When DTG publishes content for TSW they aim to have the content release in 'slots' throughout the year. These are shared between DTG and, as far as I'm aware, all third parties working with DTG. Very rarely to route launches release during the same period. If a release window is missed, in a worse case scenario this could delay a particular route by a long time, up to or even more than a year. As you can imagine this isn't a great thing for the finances of a third party, especially the smaller ones.

From my understanding Just Trains opted for a much longer development period than other developers.

 

How it looks in real life:

 

Are others seeing this behaviour on this thread? Vetting and censoring of posts by Dovetail on this thread? It would also be interesting to hear from Dovetail just who or what they consider a "normal visitor" to be.

 

I am not sure but have noticed a lot of posts today which were clearly sent a couple of days ago but only came through today.