Br 111 Tapchanger Issue | Update Mess Again!

In the patchnotes was this the message...

• Adjustments to the tap changer system and how it reacts to the throttle lever input to be more prototypical

But it doesn't work at all! What wrong in this update again?! Always they try to fix stuff but again it was good but its broke...

The small tapchanger is complete removed

 

What? Is that true - it was perfect how it was - did they again screw up something that has been working instead of fixing reported issues? Don't you break my favourite loco DTG!!!

Haven't started Steam yet, but thanks Xander1986 - I'm making a backup of the pak before updating

 

The small tipping is complete removed and the reaction it self for on or of is buggy as hell!

I have no clue why you change things that works perfect and was the best of the whole locomotive!

DTG Alex Please fix this ASAP and not in about 4 months? They have revert this change ASAP!

 

• Adjustments to the tap changer system and how it reacts to the throttle lever input to be more prototypical

More prototypical for DTG and they bug fixing indeed!

 

Well, just did a brief run with the 111 and we no longer have the ability to do the quick taps of the A and D keys to move the tap control by one notch, not on keyboard or Rail Driver. The run up and run down works ok on keyboard and you can get into hold kinda easily using the A and D keys. The throttle on rail driver is still clunky to use so tend to do keyboard for this. Dynamic brakes control ok on Rail Driver as do brakes. I am also on PC.
To add, the quick taps seem to show that it is doing something and move immediately back to hold, but the number of the tap controller position on the dash does not change.

 

So Abt this... Turns out you need to hold the throttle in the Run Up position longer than before.. they never got rid of the tap changer at all. It's still there

 

Yeah the smaller taps are there on the stick it self but gives no response other than clicking sound!

 

Its the small step tapping what i have written already.... The up and down works mostly!

 

DTG Alex
DTG Matt
dtg_jan

Please give us an official statement based on technical facts about this. You have (again) retroactively changed a product I have purchased to the worse.

Why not fix the multiple 111s appearing in the loco selection? (though a minor issue)

Why not add at least a static EBuLa screen so the On/Off button makes sense?

Why not tackle the broken Reading and Paddington station textures instead?

JetWash Has the floating Rosenheim forest been removed that appears at grass cull distance 3?

Why not communicate this before releasing the patch and gather feedback? Afaik nobody has complained about the 111.

And when changing such a feature, just communicate it like "The 111 has no tap changer position like the BR Class 86/87 so we have removed this according to a real driver's feedback". Then I'm ok with it.

Edit: Forest still there. We can't go into a nice inline editor like in TSC and just hit the "Del" key....

 

I was just thinking that we need to hear from a driver who runs the 111 as to whether it even has this quick tap feature or is it just quick wrist work on the handle.

 

The question is: what is prototypical? If the quick tap, however convenient for gamers, isn't present in the real loco then it shouldn't be there.

 

Exactly - please no speculations. I want to know if the initial handle was prototypical or not having the handy quick tap push / pull option. (As the british 86s and 87s do) I mean there was a reason the 111 was released this way initially and purposely set up this way which I doubt happened by accident.

It was a very convenient way of adjusting the notches to keep your speed, now you must wait for the rundown to kick in, wait until it reaches the desired notch which is awkward when only needing to go down a single notch.

 

Again like the raised HST camera, there's no community input to be found on the forums Alex.

And I doubt the beta testing team knows about the loco IRL. I'm an Alpha tester for TSC too but we care about the program itself not individual loco settings which can only be judged by people having operated the real thing. (You can adjust input sensitivity based on PLAYER input but not the way the handle is set up itself in its functionality!)

I have a feeling someone botched Maik Goltz's work again (like the 110 headlight dimmer which has reversed functionality now) based on whatever input you are talking about.

 

The original approach was wrong. I made it that way in the beginning, because it was hard to control. But it was wrong. And there were mentions from real drivers that the taps are run up/down to fast and the delay was missing. So i changed it to the real thing and it works quite well. The short tapping was totally not prototypical. It was there to help because the taps ran up immediately when moving the lever to up. That is not the case anymore. It needs about a second for the tap changer to react to the lever input. What is also more prototypical (delay). I also changed the movement of the lever itself to get it faste to the notches. It was tested and approved to be good and usable (and more correct).

 

Happy to stand corrected by someone who knows.

Thank you Maik!

Again, it was just a matter of missing communication.

 

Well, it would be prototypical to control the lever by holding it with your hand, rather than by tapping the A and D keys on a computer keyboard. To account for that, it can absolutely make sense to make the lever behave a bit different to real life if that allows you to control the whole locomotive more realistically.

Anyway, I assume the reason for the change is because you need to go through the "run up" position to get into the semi-automatic range, which means you always go up a few notches when going from the semi-automatic range down to zero. I don't know if it's accurate (after all, a real person can move the lever much faster than you can with a keyboard), but adding a time delay to the run up position does fix that problem.

 

Wes, that was also a reason. You now can go from 0 to Z without any tap changing up. Same for going from Z to Down (never go to 0 directly).

 

This was not about the input method but about functionality. As Maik has now given the answer, it is now fixed.

Of course we know how much DTG has broken in the past, that's why we need clear technical statements like Maik's in the update notes, for separating bugs from features.

I have now deleted my backup .pak

Maik Goltz Welcome back

 

I started writing before Maik's answer was there.

Anyways, the whole point of my post was supposed to be that it sometimes makes sense to change the functionality a little to make it work better with the input method.

 

Xander1986 maybe adjust the thread title now?

Though I'm glad you started this, maybe we wouldn't have gotten the definite answer to this else.

DTG Alex I'd be happy to have more background information like Maik's statement in future patch notes.

I'm off checking to see if my cam mod is affected by the other changes... it would also be nice if you used the information you've gathered in the "popular mods" thread to inform modders of changes. For me it would be very handy to know if RVVs have been modified as I must update them in the mod... possibly users of my cam mod will not see the OBB 4024 changes... I'm checking.

 

Mike sorry but there is a big difference in what you see in the video and the game... I have try to coy this steps that the driver here follows and i can't copy this steps at all... I see the follow situation in the video:

1. Lokfüher set the throttle in notch 4
2. Use the small tap to put it notch 5 when the train is coming from the hold position and runs 2/3km/h.... You can see that in the Kn meter too!
3. Lokführer use the small tapchanger more often to get higher steps

 

I have doing a few tests right now and i have found the biggest problem in game....
The lower reaction when you choose the first steps from 0 -> running (max notch 4) are fully correct, i mean the delay but.....
If you try to reach for example youre are in notch 4 and try to get from 4 to notch 5 its to fast! You have to make the timing between 4 and 5 a little longer to get the right upcycle and get the possible option to get from 4 to notch 5.. Its to sensetive The issue in game is you jump directly to notch 6 or higher!

 

IRL you have the electrical signal via the "Auf" notch going to some electrical components, then to the "Auf-Schütz" (mechanical up-contactor), and then to the servo-motor which drives the shaft that's connected to the sequential tap component (Schaltwerk).

As long as you keep the handle in "Auf", and the electrical logic permits, you'll run trough the taps at a consistent rate from 1-26 (27 and 28 have been capped irl a few years ago, 26 is maximum). So there shouldn't be any difference between running from tap 1 to 2 and 4 to 5.
Only difference of a couple milliseconds, if at all, if you really were to pay that close attention would be from 0 to 1 as the main contactors for the motor voltage are being closed when reaching 1 from 0.

Also that tap delay (while keeping it in "Auf") should be somewhere between half a second and one second from memory.
e.g. running from 26 to zero takes roughly a bit more than 20sec.
Keep in mind I haven't tested the new update yet.

One thing that's bugging me though is that "Auf" is a latching position ingame when it should be a tap position (where it automatically returns to "Fahrt" when released).
Also the Indicators at the top of the cab should behave differently.

Edit: Tested the new update, it definitely shouldn't behave like it does right now. My guess would be that this is a gameplay decision because people like to use the Z-Control that much, so the "Auf" doesn't interfere with going in Z. Still definitely not correct.

 

Appreciate Maik coming in with the background.

Lesson to be taken from this is that "tap changer" covers a multitude of differing implementations.

We have our lovely Class 86's and 87's in TSC where you *have* to start off with two or three gentle taps or you will wheelslip or trip the power cut out. You only tend to run up if you are reapplying power when already at speed, after a restriction or neutral section. Tap up or down for fine control.

Then we have the EU07 in SimRail which is more like a multi step throttle but you can still overload if you notch up too quickly and the added complication of moving the shunt switch.

And the 111 with what is essentially a run up function where the electronics take care of the current flow so you don't overload the traction motors.

 

I have made a situation video (its uploading now) but what i experience is that its unpossible to get the step from 4 -> 5 and from 6 -> 7... It skips directly 2 steps... So you get 4 -> 6

I played on a very sensitive keyboard with magnetic gaming keys so if i cant reach it than nobody get there

 

Indeed - that quick tap change from notch 4 to 5 is not possible anymore without delay (and this is exactly how I was driving the 111 up until now, manually tapping up and using the RunUp from notch 8 onward).... I'm puzzled and stuck inbetween loyalty and trust in Maik and this video of the real thing.

Now there's some SRM scenery issues reported by MYG92 which I have not reproduced yet but maybe I shall revert to the old pak again... glad I'm on Steam.

 

Realism is good but if its not fun to play what do you prefer?

 

To be honest - the quick tap function needs to be in there, as your video shows. It could've been left in there as the position "click" is still audible.

I can mod it back into the camera mod but then I will also have the wrong runup delays back... not sure what to do right now. We basically need the old functionality plus the new delays - something I cannot do myself.

If there's also broken scenery on Rosenheim I think I'll just be using the old pak again.

 

Here is my video and the way how i experience the behavior of the locomotive with the new setup!


***My native language is dutch, sorry for the bad english****

 

My opinion is also bring it back... Not 100% realistic but better to use!

 

Besides, that's not at all how it behaves in real life. I really would like to know what they were on about with this update.

 

Thats not my point of view.... Mike says that the system is more realistic..... His reaction was that he have a real driver thats giving the go for this update! I have seen by the füherstandsvideo that i'm disagree with this point of view... The video gives an another view i think with the small taps included. You can hear the clicking and see the kN that shows whats going on

 

The pre-update one was near perfect, in regards of ease to use with keyboard in implementation and in realism.

 

Thats the good point! You have to put both options on a scale and choose whats the best way to get the feeling on youre pc at home.

 

Unfortunately i can't bring in the quick tap up again (i tried it over 2 days of work) without loosing the delay timings. It's how it is set up at all yet. Would need to recreate the whole control system, what is not doable. If it's not good now, i revert that change and it will be as it was before. Only option i may have tbh. (if even that since updates are a huge task for the DTG team to get out).

 

You're talking about the delay from "Fahren" to "Auf"? Which for me now is close to 3 seconds?

Edit: Didn't mean to sound mean, just a genuine question...

 

No, the delay is when you have set the lever in Auf until the Tap changer reacts to it. That should be around 0.7 seconds up to 1 second, not more. A driver said to me the delay is always there when you go from F to Auf or Ab. But seems not the case in all the 111s. I also got told the quick tap up is not possible in the 111. But this also seems wrong. What should i do when one says this and the other says that, and both are 111 drivers IRL.

 

One thought... apart from being more realistic than before or now, I would like to understand why the dozens of bugs and errors of the route that customers bothered to report on the forum and by submitting tickets have not been solved, and instead this, which no one had complained about, is modified.

It's already a month and a half since this route was released and today's patch notes seem like a a joke. I don't really understand DTG's current update priorities and where the efforts to improve the game are going.

 

I would propose keeping the delays but adding the quick tap back in - would please everyone. So basically redo only the delays based on the old scripts/blueprints without removing the tap.

Especially when crawling up to adverse signals I often use it to go into N1 or N2 without wanting the automatic RunUp process, needing to stop it at the right time and therefore not concentrating on the track.

 

Simple bring the orignal system back! We are the users and we had a good experience so what holds you back?! Better less realistic than unplayable right?!

 

Even better!

 

That seems strange but Mike is not the person for the other bugs! So he is an train artist and not a route creator. So there is more behind the curtain!

 

As said already, that is not possible with the current setup.

 

Just a side thought, it's interesting that both TSW (642) and Simrail (ED250) seem to have problem with endless tuning of how levers should respond to input, and never finding the right balance.

Zusi takes super naive approach, one press of button, one position change. No holding whatsoever. Just the downpress of the key counts.

It feels bit lame at first, but once you get used to it, it's absolutely flawless. If you need to move the lever quickly, you can just quickly tap the key few times and it will be exactly, precisely and predictably registered every single time.

 

Better restore the old version then!

 

Thing is with those old locos that each and every one is unique in their nuances.
The delay of 0.7 to 1s is correct as I stated above, and that's not my point.

My point being, that irl settings 0, Ab and Fahren are latched, meaning the Lever remains in those positions when released. The Auf setting is a tap setting, meaning that when you release the lever from Auf it automatically should jump back to Fahren.

The other problem is the terrible delay right now when going from Fahren to Auf, as Xander1986 already stated. Which should definitely not be there. That ruins the whole thing so much that I'd rather have the taps running up in a (slightly) unrealistic timing (pre-update) than the version where you'll have to remain in Auf for those 3 seconds (right now).

imo the new system where you have to stay in Auf for 3 seconds, ruining the whole flow and not being true to life, is more unrealistic than Schaltwerk taps running 0.3 seconds faster than the real life counterpart.
Also I believe that the "quick tap" should'nt be seen as a unrealistic control but a help for playing with keyboard. As in real life you'll always have muscle memory for timing "quick tap"ing by hand, which is by far not as easy to replicate with keyboard and kind of really throws you out of the flow that you'd get irl, as there you just push the lever forward for a certain amount of time and let it snap back to "Fahren" itself, where ingame you have to push the forward key for a certain amount of time to snap into "Auf", wait just the right amount for the tap to go trough to the Schaltwerk and then press the backward key for a certain amount of time to get the lever back to "Fahren".
I'd really hate to see the old system go, as it was the most realistic and most intuitive way of using the Fahrschalter.

 

So that seems to be a SimuGraph / blueprint limitation if it's not possible to have the quick tap back - which I love and need. I bet it's possible in TSC Lua code. (I only have the vR 111 that was supplied with routes though that is obviously only laid out as a Zugkraftsteller.)

Gonna revert to the old pak then as there are obviously no other changes made to the pak than the 111.

 

How does that work with levers that don't have notches?

 

Sorry but that reaction from Noir have nothing to what we here discuss but that besides!