So you've been waiting for this for a long time? You've been eager to drive this? Don't. In no world would I ever pay 125% the cost of a route to get a train to run on a route. Just to be clear, I really was looking forward to seeing this come out, but seeing just this one train and two models, and the problems that Tom has brought up in his video, the fact they spent so much time on this makes it unacceptable. At this point, someone can probably do a free reskin of the 700 and get a very acceptable version of it without all the bells and whistles that drive up the cost. But I don't know a thing about skinning, so I won't try to act like I do. The fact they operate on one single route is also a negative. If this train was included with the route as a payware product, and not as a free sub route, it might be acceptable, but presented this way is just ridiculous as it costs 33 plus 29 for the sub and the train, so 62 pounds for the entire package. You can do better if this is all you want out of it. At least you get Missing Link with it, and can buy other stuff cheap. EDIT: Adding this video because this is very important for people to know. Start at 25:26 for the "Serious Stuff". The timestamp got lost converting to a media tag.
I don't even care what he says. While I am indeed having a laugh, the fact that they charge 125% the cost of a route is the real laugh. No train is worth that kind of money. I can get any train on Steam - ANY train - for less than the discounted price of the 745. That's ridiculous. I also am familiar with the exact reason why they are charging this, though it's not my place to discuss it. Should someone else wish to, so be it.
Another reason for me to stay away from ATS and his business model, and the way he treats his contractors. Shall he do TSW stuff (or the people he contracts). Checking some external sources, the way this DLC is setup violates many TSC design guidelines by using external exes and installing lots of system related dlls. It's bound to fail with core updates eventually. Decide and research for yourself if ATS Launcher and dlls are a proper way to make content for TSC. I'd consider them a security risk.
Why do you treat products as if they have to follow rules? X can never be more than Y, regardless of quality. Why must routes cost more than trains? No Steam rolling stock DLC comes close to the detail of this one due to the TMS screens and announcements. Whether they are features you think are worth shelling out for is another question, as is whether the subscription discount model is an agreeable thing. But to compare to Steam DLC is ludicrous. If fully fledged simulations of trains aren't your thing then just ignore this product rather than being annoyed about it. I don't post on holiday forums how dreadful I find the idea of a package holiday to Ibiza, I just go on a holiday I like instead...
That guy is such a troll. Personally, I have been waiting for this and the updated GEML for a long time. That's my local line and it's what I am most interested in driving in TS. Is it perfect? Probably not, but the hours and enjoyment I will get from it will easily justify the price to me.
Troll he might be, but the TS Classic version of the 745 doesn't sound like its real counterpart (there is a good comparison in the review). And all of this for £38? He has a point. No, thank you.
The route might be worth trying out. But the train is way too expensive for an actual unfinished model. I'd rather give the dev $10 directly and then go enjoy it for that much as it's probably worth that much. Alan is asking for way too much money. In fact, today, I was of the belief that this is the single most expensive single DLC item in Train Simulator. Than I saw a Chinese train for 500 Yuan. That's $69 USD. So Alan doesn't even win that title. These are, I believe, #1 and #2 respectively among all DLC as the most expensive. I don't know if the Chinese one is worth it (other models are under 200 Yuan), but given the 745 is incomplete and the train literally serves exactly one route, I can live. I'll play older scenarios on the newer route if anything, or play the old extension to Norwich.
Perhaps his VAT and income tax bill finally arrived. Yegods, makes the £15 I paid for the SimRail ET22 last night seem a bargain (and a brilliant piece of kit it is too).
I can't comment on its quality, but it's noticeably more expensive that Searchlight Simulation and AP's flagship products, and they are premium products. It would have to blow your socks off for that price.
I am a subscriber to ATs and after reading the reviews l am reluctant to pay even the members discounted price for this. I too feel that the price should have included a route unless you can drive it on any of the ATs free routes. Some of the ATs free routes are high quality and better than a lot of payware routes especially Rivet routes.
I mean, you pay more than the cost of a route! The route and train should have released together as one product for that price, if anything! It seems to me there is a salesmanship game afoot that he is playing VERY badly. "If I give subs the route for free, they won't mind buying the only train that can run on the route because it's going to be in every scenario, so it has immense value..." I mean, you got the route for free. Great. Let's pull out the stock for 2018 scenarios. No 745s here... And let's just do the math for non-subs. If we want the 30 pound discounted price (which is also a laugh), times two since the 755 is most likely going to also cost that much, you would be looking at 33 pounds for the sub plus 60 for both trains. While not 109 pounds as stated in the video (unless you buy the trains first, and it's accurate based on that), it would still be 93 pounds. If you try to create the most expensive product available, you are asking people not to buy it. You can release hundreds of free scenarios using it, but they're all the same thing. Drive to Ipwsich, drive back to Liverpool Street, take a ride up to Sudbury, back to Ipswich...after a dozen scenarios you've seen everything, and the most interesting scenarios at that point are those with realistic AI. I decided to take a shot at learning how to do that and am already going to work on a new Workshop route I found. Maybe even post some of those. But not going to be looking at the GEML based on this. This would make more money sold on Steam at 20 bucks a pop.
I _really_ want their RES mail train coaches pack. But not as long as they insist on shoving their broken launcher down everyone's throat... Hopefully AP will realise this and offer an alternative pack soon, but I'm not keeping fingers crossed
It’s too expensive. Waaah! Just don’t buy it. I have mine and am happy with it. TSC is a dying brand. ATS has multiple UK routes, scenarios, timetables. I am sure they will be adding more 745 scenarios. Respectfully
You are quite correct. Basic economics of supply and demand. As products become more scarce the price goes up. Buyer beware. Take care my friend!
Also him along with his nasty lot, could also steal peoples information, and wreak other havok with that power they have.
In some ways it’s a shame DTG or their predecessors didn’t operate just a little bit more control over what could and couldn’t be done with the dev tools, particularly when it comes to payware.
In this case the product is a new vehicle not access to copies of software. Most developers are focusing on TSW. I have plenty of that DLC which just does not quite hit the spot. Since fewer and fewer new DLCs for TSC will become available then this is the commodity which will become scarce. Respectfully
Nothing DTG can do. They can only tell you what's compatible and give guidelines, and it's good that way (and made TSC great). Every self-publishing dev is responsible for his content. I'm not saying that adding external tools at runtime is bad per se, but I find it critical providing an exe that relies on a whole bunch of DLLs that are very powerful in what you could do with them. And future compatibility is not guaranteed. For example I wouldn't feel good having to run an exe that makes a call to a "System.Security.AccessControl.dll" that is shipped with the 745. Now even if that train might be a good piece of art, there's a list of things that rule out installing such for me. (And will also rule out Steam distribution, as a TS DLC should not contain any executables or linked libraries, only data in form of assets and scripts)
Forgot to reply to this. Yes, it is. Maybe the conversion I did was wrong, who knows? What exactly is DTG supposed to do, may I ask? Incorrect. There are hundreds of DLC available in infinite quantities, and 28,674 scenarios and routes (give or take as more are added/deleted) also available in infinite quantities on the Steam Workshop.
Anyone wishing to make and sell content for the game needs to obtain a commercial licence which could define items such as selling price, distribution method etc. It's not impossible as done with TSW now. In fact in the beginning I think Kuju and RSDL did have certain stipulations in the EULA about making money off the game. Unfortunately at some point it all got redacted or watered down which means we now have this free for all. Agree it could be difficult to enforce though.
Disagree - let devs improve the game with their ideas. What you are proposing is already done for content published through DTG on Steam. Nobody needs a license from DTG to make content and publish themselves, that's a precious thing. You have infinite variety and choices, and there may be black sheep, but they are usually spotted quickly. For the rest - decide for yourselves. I'm not a fan of restricting development (then you get TSW). I believe in the customer making decisions, and reviewing content. What and how ATS do things is known- it's up to you to play the game or not.
That's not how a shrinking market works. As it shrinks the availability of new products declines, but their price also tends to decline as demand drops. I assure you that quill pens and ink-wells are not selling at astronmic prices. They are either unavailable or very cheap.
Oh I agree to some extent, don’t want to unduly restrict content creation. On the other hand, it’s not really right there is no regulation or consumer protection against being ripped off or getting shoddy content either. It does indeed come down to caveat emptor, when just about everything you spend money on these days, at least in the UK unless it’s a travelling person cleaning your guttering, has some sort of accountability.
If you are looking for flirt action it's worth considering Germany or Holland. Price comparisons with Christrains products are quite telling and they are sometimes up to 50% off on the JT site. Not sure if they come with irritating announcements but I really enjoy driving them on the Frankfurt Koblenz route. I know he has a different business model and overheads but as a consumer do I care?
I bought this recently (Sub price £29.99). Yeah sounds are bit wonky but other then that in terms of functionality it is there (Think of this as PMDG/Fenix for train sim). Mind you some of these addons for flight sim costs more then £40 - I don't know what people are moaning about. Yes it is expensive (I would have preferred them to release 755 with it but whatever) but every one is increasing price these days - price of AP products also increased. Businesses do what they got to do to survive. At the end of the day it is down to each individual to decide whether it is right product for you.
The downside is this train only operates over the GEML and nowhere else. If they released it with the 755 then they could not charge you more money. This is a modern EMU and a good comparison to the ChrisTrains NS ICNG which comes with 3 versions and has a lot of features but that is £18.49 https://www.justtrains.net/product/christrains-ns-icng-intercity-new-generation
- Did I buy the product: Yes - Am I happy with it: Yes - Do I intend to drive Dutch DLC: No - Will I buy more DLC from ATS: Yes Each to their own. We all have varying cultures, experiences, available cash etc. I respect everyone to their own personal decisions. In my opinion this forum should be about what is available and respective capabilities. Price points should be up to the individual.
I had a look at the above and I don't think it is comparable to 745 - Yes you get three versions of trains but the features lists are limited in my opinion. Does it have fully driver controlled doors, Cold start, working PIS of some sort. I don't think it comes any scenarios either. Yes there is ETCS which I'm guessing will work only on selectable routes.
ATS seems to aim their products (mostly) at a particularly niche audience that want the newest models with as many peripheral functions as possible and don't particularly care about the cost. It's a touch annoying for those of us who would "quite like" some of these items to sit in sidings or pass by as AI traffic, but I don't think we are their main target market.
Points of rebuttal: In flight sim, the plane is literally the entire experience. Yes, you get the airports, but sometimes they are even free as you basically have a small space (outside of large metropolitan centres), but you're in the sky most of the time and I don't think it's a 1:1 experience; you aren't spending, I think, 8 hours or more on the flight between Paris and Los Angeles, or 24 hours to go "down under". Since you are usually in the sky at a bunch of different airports, no, you won't be spending the money on the airports. The plane is the entire game. In TSC and TSW, the route is the experience. It is by far the more valuable product. You can drive virtually any train there even if you're not supposed to (particularly steamers and diesel). As for everyone increasing price - that's no excuse in my view, either. From a theoretical perspective, you're now saying that it's not enough that we're not able to manage our basic needs nowadays, but now you are saying we have to fund someone else's basic needs without affording our own? So I am supposed to help pay for someone to have child care but I'm not allowed to get child care for my own child when out for the day? (I don't have children, this is just a theory.) The excuse that everything costs more is not valid. Yes, the costs of route building and such have gone up, but the route is being offered to subscribers for free. Maybe the company charges more for the blueprint, sure, but I doubt the price of the blueprint went up by 100%. That makes literally no sense. Perhaps you are referring to server storage costs, which is also a reason they could have used Steam in the first place; that way, they pay for storage, you keep all of your money from sales. But I believe they have other reasons for not using Steam, such as content restricted by DTG licenses, so I guess there is a reason for everything. But I will echo the FLIRT comment, and I would laugh if ChrisTrains eventually does its own 745 and 755 in reply to this (I doubt it, but as I said, I would laugh). My point of this paragraph is that if you keep raising prices, people will eventually not buy. IF you sell 50 units at $30, you get $1,500; if you sell 100 units at $20, you get $2,000. It would be smarter to increase the sales channels over just raising prices. But what do I know.
I've only bought my local airport which I know very well for X-Plane, that's Stuttgart (from Aerosoft). The rest is fine as it is, and the plane is the experience (especially the probably best mod overall in gaming, the freeware Zibo 737 mod. The pinnacle of simulation.) Add to that the possibility of true to life flight preparation, choosing your flight from a website, getting a pdf real world flight plan with all the data to program the FMC. And if you have enough storage, there's free scenery enhancements and hi res terrain data available for free.
Exactly that, not a lot. You spout your rhetoric with no intention of ever buying the product, so why bore us all with with your constant complaining that "everything should be cheaper LOVE? " My business like most others are trying to swallow the ever increasing costs of rent, electric, gas , council tax................. the list goes on. Most of these have increased annually by 20+% year on year.for the last 5 years. AP / ATS/ SSS / PDL .....................etc etc etc have all had the same cost increases. I admit the £29.99 cost for a subscriber may be a tad expensive, but in my mind a terrific investment for a quality product. If you want a Ferrari - Pay the price. If you want a Lamborghini - Pay the price. If yo want a Rolls Royce - Pay the price.. If you want the best DLC for TSC pay the price or stop complaining. Or simply don't purchase, the choice is yours, it is not compulsory. Simples..................
I don't believe for one minute that any of those have increased by 20% each year for five years. 100% inflation in five years? You're making those figures up. Gas had a temporary spike in 2022, but it's back down now.
My monthly gas & electric bill has increased from £104 - £240 My car insurance has risen from £165 - £460 per year. with no accidents and no claims. My Car Tax has risen from £265 - £414 (because it is a ULEZ compliant 3.0 V6 Diesel (Don't start me )) Water Rates ................ Green bin Garden waste £40 - £50 increase ..................... Yes I am being sick of being ripped off. This is just my home not my business, You do the maths.
Let's go one by one. Rent: personal expense, don't ask people to pay for that. Electric: again, personal expense. I will explain shortly. Gas: personal expense. Why would I fuel the webmaster's vehicle so he can drive around town? Are you insane? Council tax: Taxes are a general part of every business, and in my country, we have GST and HST, with total tax rates varying by province from 5% to 15%. I sadly fall in the 15%. I know businesses have to pay taxes on sales. But WTF is council tax? In other words, most of the expenses you spout off are personal expenses. It's not my job to pay anyone's rent or gasoline. Neither of those has anything to do with the business. Electrical costs are mostly personal (I'm not running a stove to make lunch), but a case could be made for electrical for the computers. I'll concede that. Council tax I just explained is a general business thing, but I guarantee you council taxes have not gone up 1,000 percent. They would have to to justify this price. I already know why this is so expensive. It's not my place to discuss. But I know. And it's going to get worse while other prices stay comparatively lower. Price is not linked to quality. It's driven by greed and bad business decisions. I'll leave it at that.
I used to do the airport editing for Infinite Flight. We leveraged the XPlane editor for that. Flight using autopilot can become very humdrum. Better to fly a small Cesna and control fully for fun.
Let’s leave price out of this! Is it a good product or not. Whether a person wishes to pay the value requested is up to each individual. I do not enjoy reading people complaining about cost. It is subjective. Either put up or SHUT UP!
It's not so much the cost people complain about. If the thing came with a whole bunch of playable options included, maybe bundled with a route (GEMMA), etc., then the cost would make sense and be comparable (though I still argue the OHLE wires should come with the route, not be a separate purchase, that's a "bad business decision"; they should work with Richard on including the signals and weather too, and perhaps make some exclusive scenarios for his Powerhouse thing in exchange; bartering IS a thing that can keep costs down). Unfortunately, it's one easily avoidable train that it used on a single route. Which I have not even played yet. But given the scenarios here, I argue the claim that the route can't run in the editor. Clearly, it can. So when I come to this route, I'll enjoy these and everything from my UKTS archive on it happily. Those who want to fund a case of beer for one limited-use train can knock themselves out.
Indeed it is subjective, and frankly I subjectively believe 40 pounds for a single emu with a single livery is an utter farce, no matter the quality. Additionally it doesn't seem like it meets the quality standard of AP's 30 pound CEP, and even that is exceedingly overpriced in my opinion.
You want a standard? Look at the AP Class 37. That is massive. Imagine if he did a 47 pack. So many to include. Would cost an arm and a leg, but if everything is in there, might be worth it. I still want a 57 pack. Mmm, Advenza. Mmm, Virgin.
Council tax is something every UK household has to pay to their local authority for the privilege of living within that area. It is a graded/banded system based on location, valuation, size etc. It helps to fund emergency services (police and fire), bin collections, waste sites for processing, road repairs, public amenities, parks and also fund care for people who need it (adult social care). This year, my area increased this tax by 5% (which is usually the maximum allowable increase) but other areas increased by more than 10% due to them being virtually bankrupt and having government dispensation to do so. Businesses also have to pay council tax but the charges are different.
From what I’ve read; even as an avid defender of AP prices because I genuinely think their DLC is worth it for their current prices, this is far too mental of a price in my personal opinion. If you want an Australian point of view; this loco pack at the supposed price of £37.99 is exactly, at the current moment in time, $72.86 Australian Dollars… For comparison; Armstrong Powerhouse’s highest priced pack with immense levels of detail is $57.51 which is the Class 411/412 Pack. Yet I don’t even have that DLC yet despite how much I love the look of it based on what I’ve seen because of the price being too high for me to get at the current moment. Some other comparisons; Searchlight Simulations Canadian Pacific AC4400 is $49.95; and the average route price on Steam is $58.95. Look I get the complaints about people complaining about the price but the problem is if other developers see people getting complacent with absurdly high prices for most; they’ll go down the same route and it could lead to the Train Simulator Classic hobby becoming unviable monetarily wise for the average person which is sort of a similar situation in what is currently happening in the model railway hobby. It’s a slippery slope. also keep in mind I don’t limit myself to just one type of DLC, in one corner of the world, I often fork up money for DLC for trains from anywhere so this would be a type of DLC I would purchase if priced well; I’m not just complaining over nothing for something I wouldn’t even be interested in the first place. I haven’t even mentioned the ATS Launcher issues mentioned that worry me… I have the ATS Chat Moss route and the Class 185 when they got sold in a bundle sale at a far cheaper price than buying both separately and I got them purely for AP requirement reasons but haven’t installed them into the game yet; unsure if they use this supposed launcher but if they do then it’s a worry and a pain… Apologies for going on a bit of a rant; I don’t usually do this type of thing here but I don’t want to sit by while things like this are starting to appear in the TSC hobby and I want to share my opinion on the matter…
So...what we call property tax. I see. Probably the same thing. That can indeed be a business expense, I will agree there. And I thought $64.89 CAD was bad enough.
As far as I can see, price increases to date have broadly followed an increase in quality. Inflation then hit hard since Covid which meant that a £19.99 product in 2018 needs to be £24.99 in 2024 to still return the same real value for the seller. It seems to me the real issue with this 745 is the subscriber "discount". £29.99 as the normal price and then a sub discount on top of that feels like it would have made more sense. With this pricing, it seems that subscribers aren't so much getting a discount, they are just paying the going rate. It is the non-subscribers instead who have to pay a premium which is a subtle but important distinction and is liable to alienate those who aren't a subscriber already. I struggle to see how the 745, despite its fancy TMS screens can justify an £8 premium on the going rate when it only has one livery and one variant (a few decals for first class/the buffet doesn't really count). It's worth noting too that the £29.99 packs from AP tend to include multiple liveries and variants so it could quite well be argued the going rate for a high quality single livery/variant is actually £24.99. That said, it's of course up to the seller and there's no reason why they have to follow the likes of AP. What I'm really not interested in though is personal attacks on developers and comments on their "income tax returns". Customers are autonomous individuals and I couldn't care less what profit a TS developer makes. That is their business and their often seem to be suggestions like profit is a bad thing which is worryingly communist. TS is not a cartel so a customer's business is solely whether the product on sale represents value for money. There is no moral war to be fought.
