Lirr Commuter - Why Did They Make A New Route?

The M9 always been suggested to be a loco DLC. Most wouldn't have an issue if it was a loco dlc. Destination displays was actually promised to be implemented by the preservation crew on the M7 back then amongst other bits and bobs as well but was never implemented for some reason.

Also, people can still have thoughts on the price on if they agree with it or disagree. Who are you to dictate what should and shouldn't be discussed

 

Its getting to the point where DTG would be better off just not doing updates years later for free because it seems to have created an expectation that everything that isn't completely new from the ground up will be free.

The fact that you can even install an ancient route like LIRR 1.0 on TSW4, and that it ever got a preservation update in TSW2 era is more than they had to do. They could not bother with that stuff and leave old content parked on whatever version of the game it was originally released for with the features and graphics it had at release (like NY NEC ended up being).

 

So you'd want an M9 loco DLC on the ancient LIRR 1.0 with the ghost town timetable and 2018 era signalling?

If they did that people would be pulling their hair out.

 

Considering the amount of times it was suggested, I doubt people would've had an issue. They did release the M3 dlc for lirr in 2020 before tsw2 came out and nobody had problems with that

 

Everyone would have an issue. I'd have an issue. I have 0 desire to play that ancient route with its dead timetable and 5-6 year old graphics, no matter what rolling stock they put on it.

I want to play LIRR with all the enhancements they've learned over the last 6 years so it can be as good and as close to the real life traffic patterns as possible in 2024.

That seems to be what they were doing, and it sounds like a lot of work, so they should be paid for their work.

 

You said that a loco dlc for the LIRR wouldve been unpopular? So why when the M3 was announced for tsw, there was alot of excitement for it. Granted that was in 2020 but if they had made the m9 let's say not long after, I highly that most people would have an issue. You may have a problem but if most people would've had an issue with the lirr getting loco dlc's back then, then the M3 should've been quite unpopular but it I remember the feedback from that train being pretty positive.

 

You're talking about ancient history.

This route is 6 years old. The M3 came out in TSW1 era.

If you want TSW1 features keep playing TSW1.

Those of us that like TSW4 TOD, timetable, and signalling advancements will use this version.

 

West Somerset Railway just got a FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE timetable+TOD4 update for existing players, and is even older than LIRR1. Are you of the mind that they should have charged full price for it or not made it at all? If you read, I didn't say I expect it to be free but based on history an expectation of it being free is not unreasonable as was stated in the previous comment and seems to be echoed by your pessimistic comment.

 

You made a point saying that a loco dlc would've been unpopular for the original lirr but if it was then the m3 should've been unpopular but it wasn't even to this day

 

So you're comparing one of the shortest routes in the game, a low speed heritage railway in the UK that barely has any services and no complex signalling with basically the busiest railway in the United States? Does WSR even have safety systems?

This new LIRR route has over 600 PLAYABLE services, complex signalling, and I think AI timetable in the 1000s. The amount of time that would have went into signalling and timetable for this route has to be one of the biggest workloads in all of TSW so far.

Give me a break.

If you don't like the price wait for a sale. I am not sure why this is so complicated.

It seems like many people want all these new features AND want it on day 1 yet don't want to pay for anything.

 

You again failed to properly read and you didn't answer my question. You said they should stop doing free stuff, you didn't specific any other criteria. So should they have charged for this or not done it?

 

I don't think they should actually stop doing free stuff. I love free stuff. It is great when devs decide to go back and revisit an old route and add improvements that bring it up to current standards. I'd be over the moon to get this new LIRR for free or reduced price because I own the old one.

What I am saying is from DTG's point of view it probably is just setting themselves up for failure since now people have all these unrealistic expectations that a route which likely took hundreds of hours of dev time for just the signals and timetable testing will be free just because it happens to be based upon a route we already have from years ago.

Just because they do things here and there for free to benefit the player (which are usually on a smaller scale) doesn't mean they work for free.

And, FWIW, they are giving loyalty discounts to owners of the old LIRR, which is commendable. Their hands are tied on what platforms get that but the culprit there is Sony/MS.

 

I don't have unrealistic expectations but LIRR1 was not the best that Dovetail could deliver. GWE felt way more busy and was produced well before this was released. Sure the signalling is different but if the signalling is the problem, it should have been addressed in development or shelved until it could get fixed. Instead of fixing the fundamental problems either before or after launch, they have chosen to charge for the fix. Many of us feel charging for those fixes isn't the most pro-consumer move, and wish for a better solution that benefits both the company and the loyal fans who bought the original release.

Everything else including the M9, new branch line is well worth some money for sure, but I do take some issue with buying roughly 60% of the same route again at full price which is why I share my issues and will wait for a sale price that is more acceptable for myself.

 

Again for anyone who has been around TSW and paid attention to the history, the answers to all of this are clear.

The route came out in 2018. The state of the game in 2018, and their knowledge and ability to reproduce complex US signals and thus an accurate timetable were limited.

GWE is also a ghost town compared to its real life counterpart. And it has the benefit of using UK signalling/AWS which are simpler.

As the game advanced and the dev processes changed, they were able to create NEW routes which had better implementation of signalling/safety systems and thus better and more accurate timetables.

Even that, from the US point of view, is recent. As they put out new US routes the implementation got better, to the point of Boston-Providence finally in the last couple years getting updated to the point where we actually finally have a representation of US signalling that for the most part works and is realistic/accurate.

Now through all this, people have asked/demanded for these improvements to be applied back to older routes. Boston itself got the signalling update as a patch, not a new release we had to pay for. But it was also a much newer route.

In regards to LIRR specifically, people have asked over and over if it could be given a new timetable, and its been discussed at length that it was basically impossible without basically rebuilding the route from the ground up and re-doing the entire signalling system which was beyond the scope of any free update they could apply to it. Matt was very up front about this and has explained many times that he actually tried to create a new timetable for that route and it simply could not work. He's also said the same thing about GWR, the timetable just can't be expanded because of the way it was built.

LIRR did get many updates over the years that were free, brought it to a better standard than it released with but still nowhere near newer routes. It got a new skybox, PIS updates, new sounds, etc. It got patches and bug fixes well past the TSW1 era, into TSW2, and 3.

Still, LIRR is an iconic route in the US and one that we'd all want to see done to the same standard as a SEHS, Dresden Reisa, etc. It is probably the best candidate in the entire US to make a busy commuter route that matches something from one of the European routes.

So they did the rebuild from the ground up. At least the signalling point of view. That opened the door for them do a proper timetable, over 600 services. While they were at it they made a completely new M9, updated the scenery, added entire sections that weren't there in LIRR 1.0.

These aren't "fixes". We were never promised a 600+ service timetable at any point in the history of LIRR 1.0. We are getting a massively complex route basically from the ground up with significant new content, including an entire new train. They re-using some assets but the important guts of the route (signals, safety system, timetable) are new and a scope well beyond what was ever possible or promised in TSW1.

So really, I don't get the moaning. I said way back when I'd be happy to get LIRR done properly and I'd even pay full price for that to be done.

I get why many people won't. So either don't buy it or wait until it goes on sale at a price you're comfortable with. Nobody is saying anyone HAS to buy it or HAS to buy it day 1 at full price.

 

So why make a bad route? They've shelved at least one route in the past that I know of, if you can't deliver your best in 2018 it's okay to wait until 2024 to release something much better that fits your original vision. Your argument just means they're okay with releasing broken stuff, I don't know how you can get excited about anything they release.

And all this without mentioning the first horrific NY addon which they abandoned and later reused portions of to resell again last year..

 

This doesn't even make sense.

Thats like saying "Why release a bad game like Pong in 1972 if you couldn't release it with HDR implementation".

The game was different in 2018, as was the knowledge and skill of the development team. No route released in TSW1 era compares in any way to a route produced in 2024 TSW4 era. Technology and developer skill/knowledge has advanced.

The 2018 route isn't "broken" at all. It works perfectly fine. You can play it all day with few issues. Last time I played it I'd say it was actually in better shape/less buggy than most routes. It just doesn't meet modern standards because it was made 6 years ago. Particularly in signalling and timetable.

Really not complicated. I am not sure how to explain it any better than I already have.

 

If it wasn't broken then it wouldn't need fixing... and it definitely needed fixing.

 

Define "broken" then. Your concept of it doesn't seem to mesh with mine (or reality), but I'm open to hearing your explanation.

 

Well, just the things they fixed in the new version for starters, they were broken because clearly this is a simulation game and they weren't properly simulated. I'll wait until the new version releases and watch the feedback to see what people are thinking of the new version. There might still be major problems with it, I don't know.

 

So yeah, you just don't understand what the term "broken" means.

Thats like me buying an electric car in 2018 that has a range of 200km.

Then in 2024 the manufacturer has advanced in their designs and releases a car with a range of 600km.

So I go back to them and say "the car you sold me in 2018 is broken".

No it isn't, its the same car it was in 2018. They've just learned to make better cars.

 

Yes, it's broken. That's why they spent so much time and money trying to fix it.

 

I would like to share my is my thoughts on this situation after watching the preview stream.

I did think that the route does look quite nice. I really liked the modeling of the M9 and I thought the sounds were decent as well. I do like the look of the Long Beach Branch as well and it is nice that St. Albans was added. I do like how busy the route is as well.

However considering that this was advertised as being built from the ground up, I was quite suprised to see that this route had many reused assets. For a route that was advertised as being built from the ground up, I was honestly expecting stations such as Penn Station for instance to look close to how it is in real life and have much more new custom assets. Penn Station looks nothing like it does in reality. Also East New York Station is actually much darker and extremely run down with trash and chipped paint. Many of the stations are way too clean. I think much more custom assets would've been great.

Now I actually did get the lirr and the m3 7 months ago so I can get layers for NY-Trenton and I have played the route from time to time as well and I've enjoyed playing with the M3.

The original LIRR as far as I understand had a full timetable but because the singaling system was not working properly because it wasn't implemented properly, that timetable couldn't be utilized so a reduced timetable was made and in order to get a full timetable, the singaling sysyems had to essentially be rebulit.

This updated route also add an additional 10 miles of the Long Beach Branch but honestly this wouldn't have been my first choice and it seems from suggestion videos and having reading the LIRR 2.0 thread, that people wanted Grand Central Madison and thought that the route would be extended to Ronkonkoma.

Whilst it is nice that it the route is improved. I have never played a game where in order to get the improved version of a product that I already own that fixes the issues with said product, I have to essentially rebuy it. The fact seems to be that DTG didn't implement the singaling system properly originally but if we want to get the improved version, we have to pay for it.

Now whilst I do understand that it took alot of time to redo the singaling but at the same time it does kinda seem anti consumer for a company to release something that doesn't work properly only to come back and say we fixed the issues with this product, but if you want the improvements please give us $40. Imagine if EA for instance released a product that didn't work as intended but then decide to re-release said product at full price. I can imagine the backlash. It's certainly something I haven't seen before.

I think if they absolutely had to charge for this, then it probably shouldn't have been for $40. Maybe $22-$26 could've been more fairer. I'm sure the devs are getting paid just fine as it is especially with the recent releases of previous dlc. They wouldn't go hungry and I highy doubt would DTG go bankrupt if this route wasn't $40.

Whilst this route is definitely better than the original I'm just not sure if this is worth full price. Perhaps if there was more branch lines and if there weren't so many reused assets then perhaps but as I see it, I'm not sure if this is worth $40 for what is essentially an updated route that is already in game with a new train (which probably could've been loco dlc anyways) an extra 10 miles of track, and improved singaling and timetable that should've been there from the beginning.

Before someone comes at me with the usual "if you don't like it, don't buy it", I am aware that I do not have to buy it, but that doesn't mean I can't have a view on the matter nor does that mean others can't criticize the route even if you may not agree. Comments like that seem to just be a way to try to shut down any criticism

 

Matt said at 48:00 in the stream that the M3 wouldn't be affected by the permenant safety systems on order and could be used with safety systems disabled (manually disabled/enabled). That might be useful for the ones to know that want to drive at the route without it at least once or to use that information for custom scenarios or what else.

 

LGV was given away for free to celebrate DTg's new ownership.

Preservation updates were free because they were not adding new content.

 

If GWE was remade/extended, keeping the HST in the route would be the better option. As it stands right now, the HST doesn’t have a route that runs longer than 30-35 minutes per service. It deserves a route that allows it a good long run, extending GWE and keeping the same era would allow that.

And as a personal preference thing, swapping eras for the IET would be a massive downgrade.

 

I personally wouldn't dream of suggesting this route should have been given away for free, but when you consider it's actual new (never been seen before) content then £30 is a highly questionable asking price - especially when you consider that there is such a thing as "somewhere in between" when considering those who may already own it.

And then there's the anti-christ in the room....Rivet Games.
If memory serves me correctly IoW 2022 was a completely free upgrade for those who already owned the original, with (I think) the only compromise being that if you wanted the new rolling stock you had to pay for it, so it does kind of show (albeit on a lesser scale) that, if a developer chooses, a much fairer degree of consideration can be made towards those who already own what they're attempting recycling a second time around. Who'd have thought it, Rivet Games actually being the good guys for once!

The biggest problem for me though is that LIRR is a 100+ hour played route so being as how I've already played the main bit to death, I have to ask myself what exactly I'm going to get for my £30.

Finally, what about those like myself who don't have Gamepass? It does kind of feel a bit unfair that people who own the game have to purchase a subscription in order to get some level of discount to lessen the blow of a £30 rebuy.

 

Iow 2022 was its own paid separate addon so it had to relation to the old one. You didn't get the new route for free if you owned the old one since it was rebuilt

 

Yup, I've just had a quick read of the product description and it appears that the original IoW merely received a few tweaks in order to bring it upto TSW3 standards (and not the full monty upgrade) so I stand corrected where Rivet Games is concerned.

 

That may be a licensor requirement. I know several railroads won't let DTG make their trains too dirty (Union Pacific forced the removal of the "weathered" AC4400 from Cane Creek), and it could well be the MTA, who after all regards its deal with DTG as advertising, doesn't want the digital stations to reflect the grimy reality.

 

I rewatched parts of the stream again and it looks like you def need to have LIRR 1.0 installed for that LIRR layer on NYT. I guess making NYT compatible with the LIRR 2.0 EMUs meant updating NYT again to support both (is that even possible?)...either way, its unfortunate that we will need to have both LIRRs installed to get that layer. Sure it improves perf at Penn but it makes it much more immersive seeing the LIRR trains moving in and out and also seeing them roar past when at Sunnyside yard.

 

I have a friend who works with the MTA on creative projects and licensing projects. He told me about this route/collaboration about a month back. However I was NOT allowed to mention it in any forums or servers. As far as I can tell I believe this was due to problems like you mentioned having clean trains and stations to mass appeal but as for the safety systems there were concerns in the MTA about the safety of passengers with current situations in NYC. All of this explains the reason as to why the safety systems are on always and why the trains look so clean.

 

I've always mostly stuck to UK routes, mostly because I like to use safety systems and understand the British systems and I don't have huge amounts of time for learning new things.

However, from what I've seen of this route, I think I'll branch out and try something new. So it will be a day one purchase for me.

I have some frustrations at times with TSW, and some of the DLCs, but this isn't, in my view, a re-release of an old product. Just a new product where some of it's area covers the area included in an old route.

I think I would be willing to pay full price for any of the routes I currently own to receive an extension and new loco, especially NTP and TVL. It all comes down to does the new represent value for money? From what I can see, the improvements on this route are worth £30 so I am willing to pay £30.

As for Matt's comment about ECML crying out for a boring extension to York rather than Lincoln, I'd remind Matt that the slower Lincoln extension would be far more interesting and add some variety to ECML that isn't yet there. Though that might have more to do with me living in Lincoln.

 

The subject of not uninstalling older routes because of the need to maintain layering brings up the subject of the UI. It would be great to hide routes you never play, or have the ability to tag favourites and set a favourites-only view (and have it as the default UI view if desired). Personally, I have so many routes that it's not always easy to find the one I want because of the "clutter" of older routes I no longer play, but need for layering.

I requested a long time ago that DTG publish and maintain a definitive list of route dependencies so we know which content is layered on to which routes. A relatively simple task but nothing has appeared so far.

 

The tsw wiki page does a good job telling you what the layers are and has been updated as new content got released. Although it doesn't differentiate last gen v next Gen

 

DTG Matt Can i delete the old Route to used the M3?

 

The old route is now only good for getting the LIRR layer on New York to Trenton. So yes, you can delete it if you wish.

 

Can you please Change the Layers to the new Route please?
Because the old route cost too much GB

 

Its not as easy as just swapping them around.

 

The people arguing that this should have just been a cheap loco pack with some extended track need to bear in mind that the 15 miles and 10 new stations on the Long Beach branch is pretty comparable in size to the 13 miles of track with 13 stations Goblin route.

I can't imagine people would have been happier with just Jamaica to Long Beach for $30?

 

I'm very torn on this one because on one hand I like some of the changes and fixes and I would get the double discount, but on the other I absolutely hate the operational changes. Basically, the only thing that would make the route worth the even discounted price for me is if someone would release a mod that would bring back the missing features. Thankfully DTG has no control or responsibility over mods and they can't be hold accountable for them.

 

Explain?

 

A mod that would bring back the realistic door controls, circuit breakers, etc.

 

I think Matt explained and requested on the April roadmap that mods DO NOT DO THIS. It could still breach the licensing agreement, though not directly DTGs doing, and MTA could void it all together. That would pull the license and route from the game.

 

It would also risk future routes from other licenced companies, in its too much risk for DTG to build.

 

The court will decide then. Looks like there's no specific landmark decisions, the community could use one.

 

And watch them pull the editor for everyone. Smart move.

 

That's a reckless idea. I certainly hope that no modder will attempt this. It could put a lot of US routes, including this one, in a perilous situation.

 

Wow, you people are spineless. So long then.

At least it looks that the M3 will be as it is, so we'll get one realistic piece of rolling stock on it.

 

Don’t let the door hit you…

Nothing to do with being spineless, it’s accepting a realistic compromise to get a much wanted add on in the game.
Same would apply for the UK if (for example) GWR would only agree to renew the licence if similar conditions had to be met portraying their traction and rolling stock.

And I would fully support DTG in blocking or issuing “cease and desist” to any modder who tried to circumvent the requirement.

 

I'd much rather DTG adhere to the terms of any license even at my expense.

Otherwise, it's goodbye TSW.