No mate, it was me assuming that this pack selling for the high price was under the impression that it was fully licensed and approved by Stadler and Abellio Great Anglia which is not the case from what I have learned. To be honest mate. I was somewhat baffled about the lack of a Virgin Trains branding patch being absent from their HST pack as they are freeware and no profit was being made from the brand. I suspect the cease and desist notice was due to an ill informed lawyer or a company public relations officer or something like that didn't know about the legal standing of the branding patches and AP took the safety route and decided to not bother with the Virgin brand as it is not one of the easiest companies to deal with. It kind of reminds me a long time ago that I was going to make a Coca-Cola set of TEA tankers for novel reasons a while ago before my last desktop PC gave up the ghost on me in 2017 and decided to take my hard work with it. I didn't really bother much after that but if I did. Coca-Cola would find it extremely difficult to sue me for using their brand on a set of TEA tankers because one. I am not profiting from their logos and two the reskin would be freeware and the third method in terms of YouTube monetization is that the creator of let's play videos makes their money from the ads revenue on the video and not the add-ons or the game itself . That is my understanding of the rules as far as I am aware.
My understanding is that you cannot use somebody's intellectual property without permission, be that for profit or no. Whether it's worth anyone's time/money/ PR capital to takedown low circulation, clearly not for profit instances is another matter.
Brand owners aren't just concerned about people making money. They also don't like their brand being used on things that damage the 'brand value', and in some cases they just don't like seeing inaccurate copies of their brands; through the accuracy demanded by train simmers means inaccurate branding is unlikely to be a problem. I know of a model aircraft decal maker who had Alaskan Airlines give him (for free) the technical spec for the paints they used and copies of their aircraft painting drawings, so he would get the decals absolutely right. They took the view that he was giving them free advertising, so they encouraged it. Not all companies think alike.
Its like when I launch a rail company here in Northern Ireland in the future. If anything, I would allow the TS community to use my brand name in reskins/add-ons as long as the company is credited and acknowledged as to me. I see it as free advertising and it would promote my business. But that is just me and I work for the collective, although not everyone is like that and we have to respect their wishes out of common respect .
This is correct. However, companies weigh cost versus outcome. They will not spent thousands on a case of ten people downloading and using a free reskin. To that end, they would see it as possible advertising, but they keep an eye on it just in case it becomes a monetary profit to jump at.
On his latest video he has disabled comments on youtube like Armstrong Powerhouse did. Must of had a lot of negativite reactions
Marketing 101 don't let potential customers see that your product is expensive...let's redact that next word. After all, if customers do see, well, that, then they might be inclined to not buy it. I mean, the price should take care of that already...
There's negative reaction and there's just vile completely over the top personal attacks. Both AP & ATS have faced this and I don't blame them at all for shutting off comments. I can't see why either of them deserve such dreadful comments for the crime of releasing a Train Simulator product that some deem as too expensive. Social media is a nasty place these days and treated as a playground by the disenfranchised Discord types. They are nearly always the same demographic of teens/young people who I suspect have yet to enter full time work and feel detached from society/the real world. I fear in this increasingly lonely online world, participating in this behaviour gives them an illusion of friendship and camaraderie by getting together and being as nasty as possible to the latest bogey man. In this current case, ATS. To reiterate, it's not that negative comments shouldn't be permitted. But when they are personal or just totally needlessly nasty/unreasonable, they serve no purpose apart from what's stated above. Companies like AP or ATS don't exist to provide belonging to these poor souls as that is quite frankly, the only reason the vitriolic comments are made.
I'm not sure your demographic is correct. The individuals who get banned on this forum appear to be in work, and have a decade or more or adult life. Though since this is the internet, it's impossible to know if what they say is true. And why can't personal criticism be made if a person's behaviour or morals are bad?
It rather defeats the purpose of social media if you don't allow any interaction with your content. AP don't allow comments on their Facebook posts either, which makes it seem like they just view it as free advertising rather than a forum for discussion.
The biggest problem with any "censorship" on the internet... ..who decides the definition of "bad"? ..
Yes, and I'm always suspicious if feedback is turned-off or hidden. What are they doing that makes them so afraid of public comment? Sure, you'll sometimes get the occasional idiot comment, but most customers can see those for what they are and ignore them. But no public comment at all? Suspicious, very suspicious. I move on.
Sadly we have many trolls out there. From a company perspective the Voice of the Customer may be easier to capture via focused groups due to the extended noise produced by certain individuals.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Pretty much all social media is actually good for these days...
But if the *voice* is made up of carefully vetted customers/fans/acolytes it won't be a true reflection of the diversity of opinions the TS user base has. A company will often learn more from those dissenting than those blindly agreeing with "!the great one that is...." (insert name of favourite provider)
Obviously there is a balance between the free-for-all of social media and only listening to a select group of Beta testers. I don't think either are very productive.
The whole world, REAL as well as this imaginary one we're living in, is a free for all, you can't deny the right of free speech. Of course there'll be those who go over then top, but we've all done it.
The trouble is that people do not act on social media as they do in the real world. I would agree for the free for all in the real world. Social media for some reason brings the absolute worst out in people due to the protection of a screen. Companies have no moral obligation in my view to allow anyone to say anything on their social media. It's not a freedom of speech isssue when dealing with company specific pages. The freedom of speech issue arises on the platform level (Facebook/Twitter etc.).
I've no problem with that, I have a minor issue with using a platform intended as a discussion forum and then disallowing discussion. If you want to show me an advert for your product, have the courtesy to tell me that you are showing me an advert and nothing more.
Great discussion here, want to focus on one point. This is what companies in general see Youtube as. A way to promote their content. This isn't an AP thing, this isn't an ATS thing, this isn't even a Train Simulator thing. It's just where companies put promotional video ads. And that's what they are: ads. They don't care what Rick and Suzy and anyone says. They just put the video up and they're off to make more video ads or do other important things like answering customer complaint calls - wait, they contract that work out so they don't have to hear it, I forgot... But yeah, personal attacks are not good. If that's why comments were turned off, I can understand. But otherwise, who the hell cares what someone says?
I have started to see YouTube as a complete advert recently. Literally everyone now has promotions to push and doing "real world" reviews of products they are sponsored by. It's a bit of a shame really I can never trust youtube reviews now.
It's all about the money. I have abandoned my YT account when Google bought it years ago. Can't be watched without an AdBlocker.
There is a reason why people do their own promotions in videos. Ads aren't being served because of adblockers. They want money. And companies reach out to those with large audiences to do sponsorships. I'd love to do topical sponsorships, but no one reaches out to me to promote a gaming headset I could use while playing or such. The only things reaching out are things like electric toothbrushes and services that make recipes for you and send you literally only what you need at overpriced costs so you can make it once, and you better not screw up or you wasted the money. No thanks. I will fast forward past them. At least I can do that. Then use an adblocker! I get some of my news from Youtube TV channels. They aren't wasting my time. They get enough money from TV ads.
There seems to be a small group of people having completely inappropriate emotional outburst about anything Train Sim these days. I have been noticing this for a while...
That's pretty much how it works. I have been watching in a private window so it can't try to account-lock me. It's surprisingly effective. I get no messages. I did once, which was absolutely hilarious, but I reset my private browser session and gone.
I use Brave Browser for YT, never get an advert and never get a message. Its based on Chromium though so I wonder how long Google will allow it to continue
well this was an interesting read i am not going to even bother correcting some of the wild misguided mistruths in this thread but a massive thankyou to the guys who have given clear constructive criticism good or bad we really appreciate it cheers
The real Bearded one, or some pretender? What about the subscription model? ATS compulsory launcher and forced dependencies on other ATS assets?
And now...I bring this back. Because there is a new video in the topic that might be very interesting to people. I think it brings to light why this train took so long to release and why it costs so much money. They had to settle a bloody court case before deciding what to charge for the train, and I think it is safe to say the result of that court case (surprise, they lost) is the reason. We are expected to pay for their loss. As you can imagine, I am not paying court costs. I don't even know if it's worth HALF the price. This is the first TS product I would actually willingly pirate if I could guarantee that it was 100% safe to do so (it never is). And even then, the use is so limited that I don't want to do even THAT. Just swap it with the ChrisTrains FLIRT 3 and create a livery for it, and you already have something that is wads better. Or heck, that Swiss train at the end of the video where someone is actually modeled using the services on the train. Amazing touch, really. Either of those is better. The funny thing is this would possibly not even be coming out in public if this product were released at a more reasonable price of, I don't know, 10 quid. It's not worth more than that.
Boeing would probably handle that in a different way... it stinks, no doubt. And the publisher's credibility should also be questioned rightfully if we're going along that path. No reason to believe in the one responsible for "Inspiration and Patience" more than in the whistleblowers. Stuff like this doesn't come for no reason. Obviously there's a conflict between those apparently unsuccessfully sued by ATS - which gives some food for thought - and those like Anthony, with all due respect, naturally interested in the product getting sold. In the end, the point stands - the customers decide. Pay the price? No, not worth more than £20 imho, especially concerning the limited use for the train. I mean just look at U Bahn Hamburg, you get a route plus two trains with great announcement systems too for less of the price ATS demands for a single train. And the DT4 and DT5 are superbly simulated, featuring even Dynamic CCTV telling you if you stopped short. (And the initially missing DT4 was delivered as a free update.) And the thing obviously sells. Win - Win. Karma will backfire on those too greedy, and often it's people involved with certain persons that will get a taste of the same. A german (ex-)Youtube phenomenon has coined the term "Kotmidas" for this effect. I feel much better buying AP products delivering much more value for money. My opinion stands, the 745 is a rip off. And I'd be glad to see more freeware devs having their stuff hosted on trainsimcommunity than on ATS and its terribly designed cluttered up website.
The truthfulness of the claims made in the video Cyclone linked to is unknown. Currently, it's just hearsay. I'd be careful about repeating them without some evidence, like the existence of the court case referred to, which I assume will be in the public domain if it actually happened.
No it's complete hearsay. Do we know if MHD has actually spoken to 'Spectre'? No. Do we know if Spectre's comments were correctly reported by MHD? No. Do we know if Spectre has actually worked for ATS? No. Currently, it's all just hearsay. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, we just don't know. Think twice before repeating it.
I'm happy to take the word of the guy involved in the initial production of the 745...read the thread fully.
I'm guessing this wont interest everyone in this thread then.. I'll also state I have no horse in this race which is why I haven't commented either way (except regarding certain Youtubbiers) buy it, don't buy it, complain about it or praise it, get hung up on all the politics or get on with the important things in life but let's just remember one thing.. We're all here to have fun. No seriously I don't care.
Starting with the assumption that people may be being deliberately untruthful or fabricating things seems like rather a cynical disposition to take to me. Granted that people creating Youtube videos are just players of the game like you and me, why are they any more or less credible than (for instance) anybody posting on this forum? Not everyone, but I would assume that the people who have bought the product will be interested?
Seems Ubisoft's expectation to have players pay for their immense production costs and awkward project management of the disaster called "Skull & Bones" didn't work out as expected. How long a product has been in the making is not justifying the price for the customer. On the video, I'd say a lot of stuff MHD says and complains about like key combos or procedures is fairly ridiculous and just personal preference. As for the "serious part", I fully agree.
In general, you can't claim having a case in court unless you have been in court. After all, that is public record. This can be researched. Alan or someone else can come here to deny the information in this video, but lying about it would constitute a case of libel and could lead to a further defamatory lawsuit. I will say I have heard the same story. If that person wishes to reveal him or herself, I will leave it to that person to do so. However, I can say this: if and when a transcript of the proceedings comes to light, I will be very interested in what took place within the courtroom, and that will say a lot about the case that cannot be refuted by either side. At this point, I can only presume the cost of the train is incorporating the costs of paying a developer who was let go and failing to recover that money, through legal means or otherwise. If and when that transcript appears, we can confirm what actually happened.
Its also Because the person in question here has a lot of flying monkeys at his disposal. As anyone would know, those ones that are always used to put the blame on the victims, and have the bully(s) unscathed. The victims here, are the Route Builders/3D Modelers etc, and many many Train Sim Classic players. The good thing about this kind of nonsense, is that people sometimes have the sense to eventually see through it all. (hopefully)
I saw this post later, so I'll partially repeat myself here in replying to this. I have known the story for months. The video producer has relayed the story exactly as I have heard it, almost identically. This is why I say I know who "Spectre" is, and that means there are also multiple sources for the information (granted, that one has more followers than I do). Anything said by another person is indeed hearsay, which is why I hope a transcript comes to light. But given the source is a former developer with ATS, I can guarantee you Alan and other higher-ups already know exactly who it is. There is a very low number of people who qualify as "former ATS developers" (I've also spoken with a second one who confirmed the atmosphere, and I will also keep that name anonymous). I have every reason to believe it. Let's liken this to sexual abuse. If a woman is telling you it happened, you have to believe her. You don't just shrug it off. The story here is that Alan is, while not sexually, at least abusing his developers and mistreating them professionally. That is something we have to take seriously and, as a community, decide whether we are OK with that. Of course, now you'll argue that I am the video guy. I'm not. See my signature. I merely play. I don't do proper reviews. Or attack people as the point of a video. Much of the time, I keep the videos I do to the DLC. It's a hierarchy of victims in this case, as you noted. The developer affected here is the primary victim, not being able to complete the project that he or she was contracted to work on. The part about planning to wrap it up after that project was something that was not relayed to me specifically, but being licked out of the system and away from the content being worked on was relayed to me. In the end, it's noted that his or her health has suffered for it. I won't go into personal things, but the stress involved from what this person had to go through can actually lead to becoming mentally disabled to the point that work becomes impossible. I for one would never be able to trust anyone ever again after something like this. The user could very well have a claim for inability to work and therefore lost wages, which could lead to more court cases, this time brought by the affected developer. While the developer won the case, that mental scar and everything else lives on. I will let him or her talk about it if and when we know who it is one day - and if the transcript shows up, we will know. The point is that this is serious. This isn't "you don't like the price, don't buy it". This is liberal abuse to the point that someone can no longer work in the industry. I feel hurt for this individual. There is no place for this. And I haven't even gotten to the fact that ATS' negligence has created more victims. His customers. By pricing the DLC so high, the likelihood of anyone buying it is extremely low. Which is why I have commented that it would be pirated pretty quickly, and I can guarantee you that this patch posted today will probably be pirated quickly as well. Because no one who isn't in the monkey cage or in the business of reviewing products for Youtube subscriptions and donations is going to want to pay this price. They will pirate it. Some may try to reach out to the dev directly to donate directly to them, but they won't pay the price that Alan decrees is necessary because of his mismanagement of the situation. I cringe to think how much of that 48 pounds actually goes to the developer in the final tally.
Another point is the misbelief we'd have to be willing to pay any price demanded for "saving" Train Simulator - which is nonsense and only the few greedy devs publishers will benefit from that.
